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allgivenover · **06-29-2015, 05:52 PM**

(06-23-2015, 06:06 PM)Zyrusticae Wrote: Japanese and English in particular have so many enormous grammatical, stylistic, and cultural differences between the two that a literal translation is barely even comprehensible to native English speakers.

This.

Sylentmana · **06-30-2015, 10:22 AM**

I don't really think the characters sound "British." Many seem to have more "American" accents, but I do find the olde english that they seem to use to often be tedious at best. Â They often say basic things in such a round about way I often loose focus on what they just said. Â And don't even get me started on the rogues in Limsa. Â I can't even understand half of what comes out of their mouths.

Aya · **06-30-2015, 10:39 AM**

I'm giggling a little at the thought that the older-styled English sounds "British" -as if modern Britons are tossing about "ye" and "thine" in conversation :-]

I've enjoyed the discussion!Â I think there is partly an effort in many fantasy games to make the language sound pre-modern through the use of some older forms and words, and this combines in FF with an attempt to capture the concept of an older, more formal tone through old language!

That said, I find it pretty silly that "thee" is being used to try to make the language sound more polite.Â The plural "you" was the more polite and formal way of saying the singular "thou", and that's why it eventually ate "thou" and replaced it!Â That it now sounds more formal to some ears.. is a precious irony! ^_^

Lilia Lia · **06-30-2015, 12:07 PM**

(06-29-2015, 04:32 PM)Kaniko Niko Wrote: But I do know enough that every time I see people hark and place "the Japanese version" of anything on a pedestal I immediately get the referee to raise the yellow card.

I'm going to say it: It stinks of weeaboo.

I think you're making an adverse assumption here that's a little unfair.Â The OP was asking if there was a translation of the original Japanese anywhere that didn't have everyone "sounding British" like we see in the English script.Â Nobody has said that the Japanese script is "better."Â It's just that the English script is eye-rollingly bloated at times and it gives you a feeling like the grass might possibly be greener on the other side of the fence.

I'm glad that you highlighted the untranslatable nuance with your very helpful example though because it gives a lot of perspective.Â It's just that the overly formal tone of the English script tends to make the characters' lines feel artificial or belaboured when they ought to be more spontaneous.Â "Is aught amiss?" is hardly something you'd hear a person saying frantically after seeing something shocking happen.Â It sounds more like something a person would say to another over a cup of tea and with general disinterest as to whether aught actually was amiss.Â

Regardless of whether it's intended to "evoke an older time and place," it does the script a disservice by making it come off as less genuine.Â

At least in my case, the real gripe here is with a general flaw in the writing that prevents it from being as good as it might be able to be otherwise, whether it's a translation or not...

I realize in some respect this is a subjective preference and there are probably people who like the archaic bloat of the English script, but I think if it's trying to capture some nuance of the Japanese then it's a failed venture and they should just write characters who talk the way people actually talk so I can enjoy my story.

Manari · **06-30-2015, 12:18 PM**

(06-30-2015, 10:22 AM)Sylentmana Wrote: Â And don't even get me started on the rogues in Limsa. Â I can't even understand half of what comes out of their mouths.

I can't stand trying to read the dialog for people speaking a Limsan accent. It's hard enough to mentally sound out what you are reading to replace all the missing letters that are trying to convey the accent, but then they top it off with odd and strange figures of speech that often times make no sense and are trying to give them impression that Limans have their own sub language. It's just a pain to mentally sort out the written dialog that I usually just skip through it all when I'm forced to deal with pirate speak.

Enla · **06-30-2015, 12:23 PM**

(06-29-2015, 05:52 PM)allgivenover Wrote:
(06-23-2015, 06:06 PM)Zyrusticae Wrote: Japanese and English in particular have so many enormous grammatical, stylistic, and cultural differences between the two that a literal translation is barely even comprehensible to native English speakers.

This.

Pretty much, not that there's anything wrong with preferring one over the other - but anyone who is a fan of dubbed media knows very well just what a nose dive the quality of a product can take when the production company tries to translate everything for it's most literal meaning. Half of the nuances are either lost and even if that isn't the case most of the jokes and witticisms just frankly sail right over the dubbed market's heads because they did not grow up speaking the original language. It's why these days most producers, at least in the anime scene, are pretty much alright with the localizers taking liberties that still preserve the heart of the original but don't make the new script read like watching paste dry.

Arthur · **06-30-2015, 04:09 PM**

hmmm, I believe the localization team has been doing its damnedest to make the English script as meaningful and intelligible as possible, yes. but I really feel there is some nuance lost at times.

Show Content

as someone who dabbles in JP -> ENG translation, I get the fact that literal translations sometimes make little sense, but I agree with the OP's point. translation is more than just converting words to another language because there aren't always equivalent words and concepts, and a good translator understands that and adapts to their audience. but still, it does feel as if little bits and pieces of the dialogue are lost in translation.

Lilia Lia · **06-30-2015, 04:41 PM**

(06-30-2015, 10:39 AM)Aya Wrote: That said, I find it pretty silly that "thee" is being used to try to make the language sound more polite.Â The plural "you" was the more polite and formal way of saying the singular "thou", and that's why it eventually ate "thou" and replaced it!Â That it now sounds more formal to some ears.. is a precious irony! ^_^

Yep!Â I'm sure you can appreciate that they at least managed to use "thee" and "thine" and the archaic verb conjugations correctly, which a lot of video games simply don't bother to do.Â Even today you see a lot of games with Early Modern English travesties with misplaced -eth/-est verb conjugations and using "thee" and "thou" interchangeably.Â At least FFXIV manages to get the grammar right.

ZacharyVolfire · **06-30-2015, 05:16 PM**

-raises hand- I can attempt to translate any old Kanji and Katakana you may need.

My grandma didn't teach me Hiragana so no luck there though.

SM Nick · **06-30-2015, 09:26 PM**

(06-30-2015, 04:09 PM)Tabris Wrote: hmmm, I believe the localization team has been doing its damnedest to make the English script as meaningful and intelligible as possible, yes. but I really feel there is some nuance lost at times.

Show Content

patch 2.5 content spoilers!!I just finished the Chrysalis and the part where Nabriales is destroyed, well. I feel the Japanese dialogue feels better with regards to tone. when Moenbryda sacrifices herself to contribute more aether to the Blade of Light, Nabriales cries out in protest something to the effect of, 'No! I am immortal! I am eternal...!' but the Japanese audio is literally more like, 'No! I'm fading! I'm fading, I'm fading, I'm fading...!' and I don't know, it lends more desperation to the whole situation. itÂ showsÂ us, rather than tells us, how incredible and unprecedented the extinguishing of an Ascian soul really is.

as someone who dabbles in JP -> ENG translation, I get the fact that literal translations sometimes make little sense, but I agree with the OP's point. translation is more than just converting words to another language because there aren't always equivalent words and concepts, and a good translator understands that and adapts to their audience. but still, it does feel as if little bits and pieces of the dialogue are lost in translation.

Exactly. I only wish to convey what is actually supposed to be represented. I want to regain that which was lost in translation.

(06-30-2015, 05:16 PM)ZacharyVolfire Wrote: -raises hand- I can attempt to translate any old Kanji and Katakana you may need.

My grandma didn't teach me Hiragana so no luck there though.

That will really be helpful. I can handle the hiragana myself so no problem with that.

**Unnamed Mercenary** · **06-30-2015, 09:45 PM**

(06-30-2015, 09:26 PM)SM Nick Wrote: Exactly. I only wish to convey what is actually supposed to be represented. I want to regain that which was lost in translation.

I would only want to further remind that there isn't "translating" being done with this game. Unless you mean from plain English to the modified English that the NPCs speak. FFXIV doesn't have a Japanese script that is then translated into English and then localized. All of the scripts are written together. I wouldn't doubt that each localization/lore team probably gets a different task and then they share notes.

It's a very different process than say, translating anime or manga from Japanese and trying to keep the same feeling/jokes. When translation goes from Language A -> Language B, there's going to be loss. But when Languages A, B, C, D are working on the same thing together, there isn't really a "source" or "original" language a script would originate from. ...so one could say the English script of the game is as much source material (it's been confirmed that the English team in particular writes a lot of the non-MSQ lore, levequests, etc) as the Japanese, French and German versions. ...they just really go all out on our script because English is very flexible to include older/archaic terms.

Kaniko Niko · **06-30-2015, 09:46 PM**

(06-30-2015, 12:07 PM)Lilia Lia Wrote:
(06-29-2015, 04:32 PM)Kaniko Niko Wrote: But I do know enough that every time I see people hark and place "the Japanese version" of anything on a pedestal I immediately get the referee to raise the yellow card.

I'm going to say it: It stinks of weeaboo.

I think you're making an adverse assumption here that's a little unfair.Â The OP was asking if there was a translation of the original Japanese anywhere that didn't have everyone "sounding British" like we see in the English script.Â Nobody has said that the Japanese script is "better."Â It's just that the English script is eye-rollingly bloated at times and it gives you a feeling like the grass might possibly be greener on the other side of the fence.

I'm glad that you highlighted the untranslatable nuance with your very helpful example though because it gives a lot of perspective.Â It's just that the overly formal tone of the English script tends to make the characters' lines feel artificial or belaboured when they ought to be more spontaneous.Â "Is aught amiss?" is hardly something you'd hear a person saying frantically after seeing something shocking happen.Â It sounds more like something a person would say to another over a cup of tea and with general disinterest as to whether aught actually was amiss.Â

Regardless of whether it's intended to "evoke an older time and place," it does the script a disservice by making it come off as less genuine.Â

I'll freely admit that even after editing my post to seem less barbarous, it was still rather caustic. While I apologize if there has been some friction, I stand firm by my words and shan't take them back.

However, there's another thing I'd much like to point out about the examples I've given since you've brought up a very good point about "how people really speak". Out of those five examples I've given you, only two of them are actually used in anything resembling modern Japaneseâ€”the first two. The other three of them, while grammatically correct, simply aren't used in the Japanese lexicon outside of fiction or someone attempting to be ironic. It's pretty much the Flowery Elizabethan English of Japanese. You may hear the Kansai dialect used in the last example, but mostly to stoke the fires of Osakan pride during Hanshin Tigers games.

While I cannot rightly deny that the overall recording and voice acting of the Japanese version tends to be more polished in spots than the English version, to disregard the scope of effort that went into capturing the very essence of what the narrative calls for in the English version: the accents, the startlingly correct period-English, the transliteration of tropes into their Occidental counterparts...

I'll say it again. It stinks of weeaboo.

SM Nick · **06-30-2015, 09:52 PM**

(06-30-2015, 09:45 PM)Unnamed Mercenary Wrote:
(06-30-2015, 09:26 PM)SM Nick Wrote: Exactly. I only wish to convey what is actually supposed to be represented. I want to regain that which was lost in translation.

I would only want to further remind that there isn't "translating" being done with this game. Unless you mean from plain English to the modified English that the NPCs speak. FFXIV doesn't have a Japanese script that is then translated into English and then localized. All of the scripts are written together. I wouldn't doubt that each localization/lore team probably gets a different task and then they share notes.

It's a very different process than say, translating anime or manga from Japanese and trying to keep the same feeling/jokes. When translation goes from Language A -> Language B, there's going to be loss. But when Languages A, B, C, D are working on the same thing together, there isn't really a "source" or "original" language a script would originate from. ...so one could say the English script of the game is as much source material (it's been confirmed that the English team in particular writes a lot of the non-MSQ lore, levequests, etc) as the Japanese, French and German versions. ...they just really go all out on our script because English is very flexible to include older/archaic terms.

(06-30-2015, 09:46 PM)Kaniko Niko Wrote:
(06-30-2015, 12:07 PM)Lilia Lia Wrote:
(06-29-2015, 04:32 PM)Kaniko Niko Wrote: But I do know enough that every time I see people hark and place "the Japanese version" of anything on a pedestal I immediately get the referee to raise the yellow card.

I'm going to say it: It stinks of weeaboo.

I think you're making an adverse assumption here that's a little unfair.Â The OP was asking if there was a translation of the original Japanese anywhere that didn't have everyone "sounding British" like we see in the English script.Â Nobody has said that the Japanese script is "better."Â It's just that the English script is eye-rollingly bloated at times and it gives you a feeling like the grass might possibly be greener on the other side of the fence.

I'm glad that you highlighted the untranslatable nuance with your very helpful example though because it gives a lot of perspective.Â It's just that the overly formal tone of the English script tends to make the characters' lines feel artificial or belaboured when they ought to be more spontaneous.Â "Is aught amiss?" is hardly something you'd hear a person saying frantically after seeing something shocking happen.Â It sounds more like something a person would say to another over a cup of tea and with general disinterest as to whether aught actually was amiss.Â

Regardless of whether it's intended to "evoke an older time and place," it does the script a disservice by making it come off as less genuine.Â

I'll freely admit that even after editing my post to seem less barbarous, it was still rather caustic. While I apologize if there has been some friction, I stand firm by my words and shan't take them back.

However, there's another thing I'd much like to point out about the examples I've given since you've brought up a very good point about "how people really speak". Out of those five examples I've given you, only two of them are actually used in anything resembling modern Japaneseâ€”the first two. The other three of them, while grammatically correct, simply aren't used in the Japanese lexicon outside of fiction or someone attempting to be ironic. It's pretty much the Flowery Elizabethan English of Japanese. You may hear the Kansai dialect used in the last example, but mostly to stoke the fires of Osakan pride during Hanshin Tigers games.

While I cannot rightly deny that the overall recording and voice acting of the Japanese version tends to be more polished in spots than the English version, to disregard the scope of effort that went into capturing the very essence of what the narrative calls for in the English version: the accents, the startlingly correct period-English, the transliteration of tropes into their Occidental counterparts...

I'll say it again. It stinks of weeaboo.

Look I get that it's weeaboo. ALL I am asking, is what the Japanese dialogue says, so I can find inspiration for the dialogue in my fanfic, and I just want to know. I did not ask for a dispute on the languages and dialects in this game. I just want what is different in dialogue between English and Japanese. I like these disputes, but still.

Lilia Lia · **06-30-2015, 10:13 PM**

(06-30-2015, 09:46 PM)Kaniko Niko Wrote:
(06-30-2015, 12:07 PM)Lilia Lia Wrote:
(06-29-2015, 04:32 PM)Kaniko Niko Wrote: But I do know enough that every time I see people hark and place "the Japanese version" of anything on a pedestal I immediately get the referee to raise the yellow card.

I'm going to say it: It stinks of weeaboo.

I think you're making an adverse assumption here that's a little unfair.Â The OP was asking if there was a translation of the original Japanese anywhere that didn't have everyone "sounding British" like we see in the English script.Â Nobody has said that the Japanese script is "better."Â It's just that the English script is eye-rollingly bloated at times and it gives you a feeling like the grass might possibly be greener on the other side of the fence.

I'm glad that you highlighted the untranslatable nuance with your very helpful example though because it gives a lot of perspective.Â It's just that the overly formal tone of the English script tends to make the characters' lines feel artificial or belaboured when they ought to be more spontaneous.Â "Is aught amiss?" is hardly something you'd hear a person saying frantically after seeing something shocking happen.Â It sounds more like something a person would say to another over a cup of tea and with general disinterest as to whether aught actually was amiss.Â

Regardless of whether it's intended to "evoke an older time and place," it does the script a disservice by making it come off as less genuine.Â

I'll freely admit that even after editing my post to seem less barbarous, it was still rather caustic. While I apologize if there has been some friction, I stand firm by my words and shan't take them back.

However, there's another thing I'd much like to point out about the examples I've given since you've brought up a very good point about "how people really speak". Out of those five examples I've given you, only two of them are actually used in anything resembling modern Japaneseâ€”the first two. The other three of them, while grammatically correct, simply aren't used in the Japanese lexicon outside of fiction or someone attempting to be ironic. It's pretty much the Flowery Elizabethan English of Japanese. You may hear the Kansai dialect used in the last example, but mostly to stoke the fires of Osakan pride during Hanshin Tigers games.

While I cannot rightly deny that the overall recording and voice acting of the Japanese version tends to be more polished in spots than the English version, to disregard the scope of effort that went into capturing the very essence of what the narrative calls for in the English version: the accents, the startlingly correct period-English, the transliteration of tropes into their Occidental counterparts...

I'll say it again. It stinks of weeaboo.

Now you're just completely missing my point.Â I wasn't even saying anything about the Japanese.Â I was criticizing the English.Â Everything I said would stand even if it were an original work and not a translation.Â

How does it "stink of weeaboo" that I don't care for the writing on its own terms?

And I don't think it's possible to edit "stinks of weeaboo" to make it sound less rude because it's simply a rude thing to say.Â Your best option is just to not say it at all, because the only real point of it is to belittle someone's position, which might be offensive if I thought you were even reading what I'm saying.

**Unnamed Mercenary** · **06-30-2015, 11:01 PM**

[[steps in a as mod this time]]

Everyone, be nice.

Insulting others and demeaning threads is against the rules.

If you can't post something without an insult or harsh words, I would urge that you try to revise your writings or take a step back.

If there's an offending post, please use the REPORT POST button. It looks like a little rocket ship. Do not engage in insulting other people's views.

[[puts the mod things away]]

Now as a user, I'd actually be pretty interested in the language differences. Not just between Japanese/English, but between them all. I know a little bit of this cropped up during some of the 2.5/2.55 dialogue because the English was quite....specialized and had a lot of implied meanings, whereas the other languages were much more concise and direct.

A comparison of the different finalized forms of the scripts could be very interesting. Of course, a literal translation from one to each would likely be quite different from the script we've come to read throughout the game. Different cultures and values. Not to mention colloquial phrases, slang, etc.

Poll: So what should I do concerning dialogue You do not have permission to vote in this poll.
Use exact dialogue with mods.	18.18%	2	18.18%
Try to make it modern	27.27%	3	27.27%
Both 1 and 2	54.55%	6	54.55%
Total		11 vote(s)	100%

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Comparison of Dialogue

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