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Jana · **07-12-2015, 07:43 PM**

That 3.0 example doesn't work either; it's the same situation as Iceheart becoming Shiva. The difference is that these are cases of people taking on personas of past heroes to summon, not they themselves becoming Primals. It's like if Jana got people to pray to her and gathered crystals, she wouldn't become Jana Extreme... At least as far as we know.

Aduu Avagnar · **07-12-2015, 07:46 PM**

(07-12-2015, 07:43 PM)Jana Wrote: That 3.0 example doesn't work either; it's the same situation as Iceheart becoming Shiva. The difference is that these are cases of people taking on personas of past heroes to summon, not they themselves becoming Primals. It's like if Jana got people to pray to her and gathered crystals, she wouldn't become Jana Extreme... At least as far as we know.

what's the difference? currently our working knowledge is that a Primal exists within the aether and is coalesced when summoned. What if this is how other primals start?

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LiadansWhisper · **07-12-2015, 08:06 PM**

(07-12-2015, 07:46 PM)Nako Wrote:
(07-12-2015, 07:43 PM)Jana Wrote: That 3.0 example doesn't work either; it's the same situation as Iceheart becoming Shiva. The difference is that these are cases of people taking on personas of past heroes to summon, not they themselves becoming Primals. It's like if Jana got people to pray to her and gathered crystals, she wouldn't become Jana Extreme... At least as far as we know.
what's the difference? currently our working knowledge is that a Primal exists within the aether and is coalesced when summoned. What if this is how other primals start?

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spoilers againwho is to say that Heretics could not summon Shiva, but now as a purely aetheric construct now that she died.

The difference appears to be that they have to be very, very dead.

Gaspard · **07-12-2015, 10:43 PM**

(07-12-2015, 07:46 PM)Nako Wrote:
(07-12-2015, 07:43 PM)Jana Wrote: That 3.0 example doesn't work either; it's the same situation as Iceheart becoming Shiva. The difference is that these are cases of people taking on personas of past heroes to summon, not they themselves becoming Primals. It's like if Jana got people to pray to her and gathered crystals, she wouldn't become Jana Extreme... At least as far as we know.
what's the difference? currently our working knowledge is that a Primal exists within the aether and is coalesced when summoned. What if this is how other primals start?

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spoilers againwho is to say that Heretics could not summon Shiva, but now as a purely aetheric construct now that she died.

a primal is a dead, powerful being summoned into the world. either as standalone entity or through a host/avatar. summoned as such through the prayers of their believers.

the warrior of light is neither dead, nor being prayed for towards. people cheering him on and hoping for his success =/= prayer.

It IS possible that, once uon his death the WoL could be summoned once more as a primal, but i doubt we will get to see that.

Celsius · **07-12-2015, 11:49 PM**

There's a lot of possibilities here, especially with the way that the lore team likes to bend things. While, yes, we have no concrete reason to believe that the current WoL is a primal or a primal-in-the-making, the opposite is pretty apt as well - we don't really have any concrete evidence that says is can'tÂ happen either.Â

Ultimately, yes, it is just a crazy theory, but it certainly a fun one to consider. While it's far more likely that the Warrior of Light is really just that strong because of Hydaelyn's blessing, it definitely feelsÂ like there should be more to it. I mean, we know that there are hundreds of Hydaelyn's chosen roaming around, though none hold a candle to what the WoL is capable of as far as we know - and while that's most likely just main-character-syndrome, making the WoL to be some sort of pseudo Primal would be a very interesting way to explain the power he holds.

I mean, here's another crazy theory. What if Hydaelyn is actually the one powering the WoL as a primal?Â

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I mean, it's a crazy theory, yeah. Do I think it's likely at all? Not a chance in hell. But it's still a fun thought exercise.

Merri · **07-13-2015, 01:17 AM**

(07-09-2015, 03:18 AM)Ryoko Wrote: Finally, why does everyone vaguely remember his face, just because they were at Carteneau? He's an average-sized Hyur, on a battlefield of thousands. Even if he's kicking ass the whole time, the vast majority of soldiers aren't going to see him. Derplander wasn't wiped from their minds; he's an idea in the back of their consciousness.

Figure I might chime in here. As far as this is concerned, they address this in the legacy storyline. New players come in on a carriage in ARR, and are simply new adventurers arriving to the realm much as legacy players did back during the opening of 1.0.

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Kage · **07-13-2015, 10:29 AM**

I would hesitate to say that we -know- primals to be dead beings. The few primals we have seen, yes. In fact, we know very little about the primal nature. The ones who do are those that we oppose, the Ascians. How can we then talk about definitives?

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I'm not totally convinced the the WoL is becoming similar to a primal, but it's something to theorize about. In fact, OP, after many people started to finish the MSQ, there were others on Reddit and the official forums who wonder if perhaps the fact that we are gaining powers almost above gods is a symbol and sign of how we are in fact 'hope incarnate' and that this hope from others is fueling our own deeds and is allowing us to be much much stronger.

Hammersmith · **07-13-2015, 10:43 AM**

As for pulling heros out as primal avatars or stand alones

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The lifestream exists, and everything passes through it. Â If a hero dies, they go back into it. If a God dies, they go into it, if a Primal dies, they go back into it. Â Which means everrrrry thing they did, and were, soul and person and otherwise, aetherically, hits that stream and...stays there.

Souls get recycled, so the cutscene we see in the MSQ tells us (Sans say: Ascians, who cheat), but everything they were, in terms of aetherically, is wound up in the lifestream and for all intents and purposes, never really leaves once it hits. Once you're dead, you're part of the lifestream, atherically, forever.

There's a good chance that enough belief and power can pull that memory, that ....Echo... of a person's aether out of the lifestream. Â

It means anything that had a hard enough impact and was "Large" enough to leave a big enough echo could get pulled back as a primal, with enough belief and enough crystals powering it. Â I doubt we'll ever see PEASANT MC PEASANT THE PRIMAL, but the idea of something like say...Mythril Heart or Iron Eater...if anyone started a cult around those two dead but having existed heros? Â

They might show up.

They might be -pissed-.

Actually I would love to be able to take a mythril/iron avatar form as a WAR....even if it meant being a mini primal.

That would be -badass-.

Gegenji · **07-13-2015, 10:55 AM**

(07-13-2015, 10:43 AM)Hammersmith Wrote: They might show up.

They might be -pissed-.

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Kage · **07-13-2015, 10:58 AM**

(07-13-2015, 10:55 AM)Gegenji Wrote:

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HW Spoilers!
As such, there needs to be no original person. No death. Just a story or an idea and enough faith and power behind to make it manifest.

Isolated spoiler'd point for emphasis. Bolded for more even.

Hence why I think it's not impossible for the WoL to either be given powers not unlike the primals and eikons or even the idea that the WoL might need to FIGHT SOMEONE ELSE'S MANIFESTATION OF THE WOL :O!

Hammersmith · **07-13-2015, 11:00 AM**

(07-13-2015, 10:55 AM)Gegenji Wrote:
(07-13-2015, 10:43 AM)Hammersmith Wrote: They might show up.

They might be -pissed-.

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HW Spoilers!
But that's the thing - it's not actually them.

Moggle Mog is the Moogles' idea of what their legendary king was like.

The Enkidu that Gilgamesh summoned is not his actual stalward companion.

Shiva is nothing more than what Iceheart thinks she is - and gets told off by Hraesvalgr and told that her Shiva is not his Shiva.

And, I may have misread it, but the Bahamut that was held in Dalamund - not actually the original Bahamut - he is a Primal based on the original Bahamut.

They are nothing more than ideas and concepts being given shape through belief and the power of crystallized aether. So Hammersmith making himself the physical vessel for the Primal of Mythril Heart of Iron Eater would only be him housing his idea of one of those two - not the actual person.

As such, there needs to be no original person. No death. Just a story or an idea and enough faith and power behind to make it manifest.

That's why I said -echo- of. Â It's a recreation of the thing that hit the lifestream. Â

It's a reflection, it's a story being held in curator-ship by the Lifestream. Â The death and the aetheric return to the lifestream are a book in there waiting to be read (and as proven in the MSQ: Interpreted) again. Â It was there, waiting to be heard, assuming anyone had the worship and crystals to pull it out.

This could be anything. Â Anyone. Â As long as they had enough of an Aetheric, or historical soul 'punch' to them when they hit the lifestream to leave that kind of vibrating record in that big infinite well of power.

Just have to find the right ripple and start -pulling- and you get a primal from that tale.

Won't work with anyone but, as we've seen through the MSQ, if it had power, it's there and waiting.

Gegenji · **07-13-2015, 11:05 AM**

Right, but the question I'm wondering is if there has to be any basis to the tale at all. What if it was a simple fairy tale told to someone about some nonexistent hero - and he believed it true? Or, failing that, thought said hero could solve the problem he wanted dealt with? And so, with faith and crystals aplenty... could he summon this fictitious character as a Primal?

Basically, could someone summon the equivalent of Eorzean Batman or Superman - someone who is entirely not real - and make them into a Primal? Or does there need to be a physical basis, that "echo" in the lifestream you mentioned, for them to draw on? I'm currently of the mind that there doesn't.

Hammersmith · **07-13-2015, 11:27 AM**

(07-13-2015, 11:05 AM)Gegenji Wrote: Right, but the question I'm wondering is if there has to be any basis to the tale at all. What if it was a simple fairy tale told to someone about some nonexistent hero - and he believed it true? Or, failing that, thought said hero could solve the problem he wanted dealt with? And so, with faith and crystals aplenty... could he summon this fictitious character as a Primal?

Basically, could someone summon the equivalent of Eorzean Batman or Superman - someone who is entirely not real - and make them into a Primal? Or does there need to be a physical basis, that "echo" in the lifestream you mentioned, for them to draw on? I'm currently of the mind that there doesn't.

I think it works for why dead heros and kings can show up.

It gets fuzzier when dealing with the Twelve and the Primals, depending on if they existed in say: The First Umbral when they 'left' the planet and told man it could go fuck itself. Â IF that's true, they've got an echo or existed in/before the lifestream. Â

If it's all religious dogma it means that a hard enough belief punch can make that kind of echo, if you have the crystals to shape it.

Sounsyy · **07-13-2015, 11:37 AM**

(07-13-2015, 11:05 AM)Gegenji Wrote: Right, but the question I'm wondering is if there has to be any basis to the tale at all. What if it was a simple fairy tale told to someone about some nonexistent hero - and he believed it true? Or, failing that, thought said hero could solve the problem he wanted dealt with? And so, with faith and crystals aplenty... could he summon this fictitious character as a Primal?

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Gegenji · **07-13-2015, 12:34 PM**

The following is my person dissertation on how I believe Primals work, based on what has been presented thus far and my own understanding of it. It is quite possibly off-base or even outright wrong, but the degree of which is likely only to be known once we get more information on Primals. However, since it is still using information learned through the MSQ all the way up to near the end (as well as what little tidbits I know of Coil), I will contain the whole thing in spoiler tags.

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Gegenji's Primal Thesis
A Primal, at its heart, is nothing more than belief and desire manifested. If you have enough aether, you can create a Primal of anything - from a dead hero to a mythological figure to a doll you found comfort in as a child. I specify aether because we have two requirements to summoning a Primal - crystals (solidified aether) and the belief of people. I posit that in applying belief, you are also giving up a bit of your aether to the Primal itself - just as one uses their own aether to affect the world around them in other aetheric ways (such as Thaumaturgy or Arcanima).

As such - and has been pretty clearly defined in the MSQ with regards to Shiva - even if someone summons a Primal of someone who once existed, it is not actually them. It is an aetheric simulacrum based on how the ones summoning it believe it should look and act, and the Primals in turn act based on these beliefs set at the point of summoning - a sort of "aetheric blueprint" set upon them wrought from the mind of the summoner. I would further suggest that Tempering is also an extension of that - wrought from the belief that the summoned Primal should not only be able to defeat one's enemies, but also to turn others to their cause. In this case, I would like to put forth the idea that Enkidu would actually not be able to Temper - because it's not a thing Gilgamesh would think his companion could do. Meanwhile, I believe Shiva most likely could - even if it was not utilized from what we saw - because she is seen as the champion of the Heretics and one to turn others to their cause.

This would mostly explain why the Primals we see summoned repeatedly have the same look and do the same things (beyond the obvious "it's a game mechanic" explanation, of course) - all that information is still fresh in the minds of those under thrall, and in the remnants left of them in Tempering. And so they they try again, using more crystals and more faith and more belief on what their Primal could or should be able to do to overcome their foes. I would figure, if a Primal fell out of "use" to the point that there was no visual representation to affix to it... its "resummoning" would look much different, to better fit the image in the mind of the new summoner. Thoradin and his Twelve looked that way when summoned because that is what the Pope and his men thought they should look, empowered with the faith of the Ishgardian people, just as Louisoix took on the form of a Phoenix for his Primal form - he saw it as a symbol of rebirth and appropriate to restore Eorzea, as Sounsyy has stated.

As such, I believe that there needs to be no physical basis for the summoned Primal. The hero being summoned does not ever have to have existed beyond in story or the mind of the summoner. If someone had an imaginary friend who only they could see, if they summoned it to prove it was there - it would work. It would take the appearance and mannerisms applied to it by the summoner.

Which is why constant aetheric power is needed to maintain a Primal - they are not native or natural to the world of Hydaelyn. They are like an extended spell, and require continual powering to avoid fizzling out and "ending." The bigger and more powerful the Primal, the more aether that is required - either through followers, crystals, or through directly drawing it from the planet in a manner not unlike Black Magic. Which is why Enkidu was hardly a blip on anyone's radar - likely able to be sustained through Gilgamesh's aether-fueled desire and the smallest amount of additional aether from land or crystal (or if at all) - and hulking Alexander threatened to drain the Hinterlands dry in a matter of weeks.

In the most general sense, if something is summoned in this manner - it is and always will be nothing more than a Primal. If someone summoned one of the Twelve - for example, Rhalgr as sought by the youths of Little Ala Mhigo - it would not be one of the gods at all but a physical aetheric manifestation of what the summoner thought they would be. One could also wonder if the Twelve actually exist at all to be called upon in any case, but that deviates from the topic and is worth its own discussion. However, it's still hard to say whether the Twelve that showed up to aid Louisoix were in fact the Twelve, or Primal manifestations that did what the wishers wanted them to do - empower Louisoix to stop Bahamut from laying waste to everything. The end result in either case was the Phoenix, a form wrought from aetheric power shaped by the wishes of Louisoix.

This is why, I believe, the Ascians haven't done the same to summon Zodiark despite having the knowledge to do so - they don't want a Primal of Zodiark. They want the ACTUAL Zodiark. And that requires much more than gathering up a bunch of crystals and really wishing their Dark God was here.

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I have a crazy theory about primals. (Some general 3.0 spoilers)

RPC has moved! These pages have been kept for historical purposes