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Hammersmith · **07-13-2015, 12:50 PM**

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WellllllThere's a lot of large hints and evidence to suggest the Twelve ARE primals.Â (Just ones that take way more power than say: Ifrit, to summon even a shred of power out of the lifestream. Â Just look at what Louie had to do with Prayer power and Staff-Aether channeling to get a failed moon seal attempt and a time jump from the 'gods')

Given that "lore" suggests that the gods walked around on earth during or before the first Umbral (Maybe a time when there was a lot more Aether saturation to boot), there's a good chance all these 'gods', that the primals claim to be, existed at the same time, and left for the same reasons.

At this point we don't have a 'unique' primal showing up (Outside of Hildebrant's quest, which is....questionable in it's place of how serious you take it)

Even the pheonix primal and Bahamut have a lot of lore/legend behind "Well it existed".

Given how summons work for things like...Carbuncles... there's a good chance pulling an existant Primal (Gods and monsters) out of the Lifestream gives you some control over how it's going to act. Â A literal shackle of faith for the god. (Through your belief of what it should do: Ramuh and protecting the twelveswood, Ravanah and expanding territory after the Gnath got a taste for blood, Pheonix and 'fixing' things)

If hero primals (Moggle Mog, Shiva) follow the same "imprint waiting to be pulled" pattern then since they have an expected way to act, and an imprinted pattern of personality, it would explain why they act the same but somewhat according to how their follower/summoner thinks they should (Shiva being a good example of this in the MSQ).Â

Tldr; For the Gods and Primals, there's a lot of evidence it's the 'real' god that gets pulled out for a primal summon. Â For Heros the evidence points at it being an 'echo' of what the hero was. Â Both are bound by the faith in what they are/were, and act accordingly.

It seems very likely the Primals and the Twelve, and future Primals, are just aetheric beings/manifestations of mortal echos in the aether stream (Mog, Shiva), that used to exist in an age where Aether was plentiful, and now need help getting back across.

Which bodes real ill for when you think about what the Ascians are doing with their old buddy Zodiarc. Â Edit: Though there's also a lot of things indicating that they might be a special case compared to normal primals/gods. Â A fourth/highest power tier, assuming they all work as 'aether beings/echos' maybe? Hero echos/primal/god/Giant fucking Crystal Elder Gods)

If we get a completely unique primal with no historical, mythical, or deific basing, that'll throw this entire thing out the window. Â But right now the only counter to that is Enkidu with the Hildebrand quest and that's...well...a murder chicken. Â Take that as you will Canonically.

Gegenji · **07-13-2015, 12:55 PM**

(07-13-2015, 12:50 PM)Hammersmith Wrote:

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WellllllTldr; For the Gods and Primals, there's a lot of evidence it's the 'real' god that gets pulled out for a primal summon. Â For Heros the evidence points at it being an 'echo' of what the hero was.

Where's the evidence of this, though? Beyond looking how people think they look and acting how people think they act? Unless there are no Gods and everything is a Primal.

Hammersmith · **07-13-2015, 12:57 PM**

(07-13-2015, 12:55 PM)Gegenji Wrote:
(07-13-2015, 12:50 PM)Hammersmith Wrote:

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WellllllTldr; For the Gods and Primals, there's a lot of evidence it's the 'real' god that gets pulled out for a primal summon. Â For Heros the evidence points at it being an 'echo' of what the hero was.

Where's the evidence of this, though? Beyond looking how people think they look and acting how people think they act? Unless there are no Gods and everything is a Primal.

Highlighted for emphasis.

I think the distinction between the two (Primal/God) doesn't exist except for "How powerful is this motherfucker". Â Hell the Primals are called gods/Demigods/Forces of nature, constantly.

Both seem to be Aetherial beings who can't exist outside of the lifestream without intervention these days.

Gegenji · **07-13-2015, 01:04 PM**

That's a hard thing to say with any sort of certainty, though, isn't it?

I mean, after all, we haven't actually seen any concrete evidence of an actual God stepping in and throwing their weight around. Or even just hanging out to high-five the WoL. Every instance of a "God" showing up and doing stuff that the WoL has had to deal with has been, in fact, a Primal.

Does that mean that there really is no difference and all Gods are, in fact, Primals? Or does it mean that no one has been able to garner a God's attention so they can show the difference?

I mean, the only godlike type we've interacted with in any sort of constant frequency has been the Mother Crystal herself (and, I would assume, Zodiark might be her "dark counterpart"). And it doesn't look like she's doing any of the things a Primal is doing.

... Or is she?

LiadansWhisper · **07-13-2015, 07:46 PM**

(07-13-2015, 01:04 PM)Gegenji Wrote: That's a hard thing to say with any sort of certainty, though, isn't it?

I mean, after all, we haven't actually seen any concrete evidence of an actual God stepping in and throwing their weight around. Or even just hanging out to high-five the WoL. Every instance of a "God" showing up and doing stuff that the WoL has had to deal with has been, in fact, a Primal.

Does that mean that there really is no difference and all Gods are, in fact, Primals? Or does it mean that no one has been able to garner a God's attention so they can show the difference?

I mean, the only godlike type we've interacted with in any sort of constant frequency has been the Mother Crystal herself (and, I would assume, Zodiark might be her "dark counterpart"). And it doesn't look like she's doing any of the things a Primal is doing.

... Or is she?

I could swear it was heavily implied that the 12 are a "sort" of Primal. Â That "Primal" encompasses a rather large group of beings/entities.

Kurt S. · **07-14-2015, 05:08 AM**

This is such a cool theory, even if it is a bit crazy.Â

Granted, I'm not exactly thinking that our PC's could be the primal of light. Maybe we'd be something more than just a primal. We do kick their asses on a nearly regular basis regardless of whatever form or strength it possesses. That in itself may just prove us being higher than them....

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Kellach Woods · **07-14-2015, 06:09 AM**

In so far as we know, the Twelve are mythical beings. They do not actually exist per se, and thus are ripe for Primal summoning.

However, consider the last fight of 3.0 :

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Notice how usually the primals we have currently seen are worshiped by a beast tribe that is relatively few in number and that can get the aether crystals necessary by just raiding shipments of them.

We're talking about beings who, in the lore, have shaped the very essence of the continent. You'd need a lot of juice to bring 'em on over with all their godly power.

Primals are essentially belief + source of power. Technically, even creatures from the void could return as primals if, say, someone found a source of power and decided to believe enough in them. Diabolos returning as a primal fight anyone?

Now, the real interesting part about primals is the distinction between a primal and what the Warring Triad are if you read up on the lead up to the Bismarck/Ravana EX fights.

Hammersmith · **07-14-2015, 09:19 AM**

(07-14-2015, 06:09 AM)Kellach Woods Wrote: In so far as we know, the Twelve are mythical beings. They do not actually exist per se, and thus are ripe for Primal summoning.

However, consider the last fight of 3.0 :

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SpoilerTo summon the Knights of the Round primal you needed :
- The faith of a thousand years of worship/awe
- A source of power that was powerful enough to even MAINTAIN the forms (the second eye of Nidhogg)

Notice how usually the primals we have currently seen are worshiped by a beast tribe that is relatively few in number and that can get the aether crystals necessary by just raiding shipments of them.

We're talking about beings who, in the lore, have shaped the very essence of the continent. You'd need a lot of juice to bring 'em on over with all their godly power.

Primals are essentially belief + source of power. Technically, even creatures from the void could return as primals if, say, someone found a source of power and decided to believe enough in them. Diabolos returning as a primal fight anyone?

Now, the real interesting part about primals is the distinction between a primal and what the Warring Triad are if you read up on the lead up to the Bismarck/Ravana EX fights.

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LiadansWhisper · **07-14-2015, 10:11 AM**

(07-14-2015, 09:19 AM)Hammersmith Wrote:

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About that Void Summon thing...Given what you see the Ascians talking about, there's a VERY GOOD chance they're looking for a way to bring Zodiark out from "between" and into Eorzea using this kind of method, or something similar. Â They very much seem interested in causing as much strife as possible to cause the people to cry out for a 'savior'.

Which is what the beast tribes do when they go calling up Primals....

which the Ascians happened to show them how to do.

See where this is going?

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Harmonixer · **07-14-2015, 02:16 PM**

(07-14-2015, 10:11 AM)LiadansWhisper Wrote:
(07-14-2015, 09:19 AM)Hammersmith Wrote:

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About that Void Summon thing...Given what you see the Ascians talking about, there's a VERY GOOD chance they're looking for a way to bring Zodiark out from "between" and into Eorzea using this kind of method, or something similar. Â They very much seem interested in causing as much strife as possible to cause the people to cry out for a 'savior'.

Which is what the beast tribes do when they go calling up Primals....

which the Ascians happened to show them how to do.

See where this is going?

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SpoilerI see where this is going.

And it's scary. Â D:

BRING IT ON.

Kellach Woods · **07-14-2015, 05:29 PM**

(07-14-2015, 09:19 AM)Hammersmith Wrote:

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About that Void Summon thing...Given what you see the Ascians talking about, there's a VERY GOOD chance they're looking for a way to bring Zodiark out from "between" and into Eorzea using this kind of method, or something similar. Â They very much seem interested in causing as much strife as possible to cause the people to cry out for a 'savior'.

Which is what the beast tribes do when they go calling up Primals....

which the Ascians happened to show them how to do.

See where this is going?

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I have a crazy theory about primals. (Some general 3.0 spoilers)

RPC has moved! These pages have been kept for historical purposes