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Berrod Armstrong · **08-20-2015, 02:46 PM**

(08-20-2015, 01:32 PM)LadyRochester Wrote:
(08-20-2015, 01:22 PM)Berrod Armstrong Wrote: Perhaps a change of the thread's subject might help, if a sharp mind and quick wit is what you're talking about. Addressing the word 'dumb' may assist as well, regardless of if the intent is not to offend.Â

Not to mention, if someone not of a sharp mind cannot respond as fast as their character can, it has nothing to do with the roleplay at all. If they take five minutes to respond and simply put in their emote "Berrod Armstrong's response was almost immediate, blah blah," Then the scene has been narrated in a way that paints the character as quick witted -- even if the player took five minutes to come up with the response. It's all about the writing.

I changed it to "Witty" though this also applies to "Genius" characters so many people love to RP. And I do mean dumb, not slow. Dumb. Stupid. Not smart. Someone intellectually challenged.

Someone who even if they take five minutes to respond, no matter how great they are, their responses are hardly intelligent or thoughtful. I know far too many characters that their players OOC tell me they are "geniuses" only to find out they are acting like bumbling fools when they are put to the test, simply because the role-player is lacking in mental faculties. Characters who act irrational and emotional when their players claim they are the ultimate scientists who are oh-so-cold and calculating.

I have a hard time believing this can be quantified via your own experiences with players of lesser wit than their characters. I have roleplayed with people who are quite slow of wit -- but they see witty characters on TV or have read them in books, and use what they've seen to produce a properly convincing performance that fits their narrative well.Â

If you want to attribute it to the player's WRITING or their ability to pull from what resources and references they have available...that I can understand. The answer remains though, yeah, a less mentally proficient/witty player is capable of portraying someone with wit -- regardless of your handful of experiences.Â

It's not something that is impossible. If the less mentally proficient/witty player can write something good enough, or even get HELP from someone to write something good enough, that is literally all they need.Â

Of course, this all depends on the subjective view of what is 'dumb'. Immaturity, inexperience, a slower pace of learning can all be presented as 'dumb' by an impatient enough and judgmental enough observer.Â

Something that many of us roleplayers at times tend to be, myself included.

Kaiz · **08-20-2015, 02:58 PM**

(08-20-2015, 01:06 PM)LadyRochester Wrote:
(08-19-2015, 09:09 PM)Kaiz Wrote: It sounds like you don't know what you're asking. A witty person is not the same thing as an intellectual person, though those two personalities can share some common characteristics.Â

Wit and intelligence are imperfect concepts, and are usually very subjective. Everyone can be witty or intelligent in their moments, and whether that makes them a witty or intelligent person is largely up to who you ask. Wit is largely recognized by creative language on the fly, so if you can pull off witty remarks, you can pass your character off as a witty character for the most part.Â

Ultimately, roleplaying any personality that is outside your own is possible once you've broken down the characteristics that commonly define that personality, and constantly look for opportunities to show those characteristics in RP. Wit is definitely one of the harder ones to do because it heavily relies on improvisation and quick thinking, but even that can be faked with sufficient preparation.

An intellectual is easier because being intellectual is less about how intelligent you are and more about how much you care about intelligence. You can functionally have little real intelligence, but still be an intellectual because you are inquisitive, care about learning, value intelligence in others, and so on.Â

Someone mentioned charismatic characters being impossible for non-charismatic people, but that is also incorrect, and I can speak from personal experience as a steep introvert with a very tiny sphere of friends who has successfully played two extroverted socialites who had big social circles and were generally well-received by everyone. It's just a matter of defining what makes a charismatic character what they are, and setting some guidelines for yourself to encourage more sociable behavior.

Obviously, the further the target personality is from your own, and the further it is from your comfort zone, the more discipline and work it will take to pull that character off. It's never impossible, but it might not always be worth it (especially for a main character) if it's always going to be an uphill struggle for you to actualize your character.

tl;dr - Yes, it's possible, it's just harder for some than others.

As I mentioned in my post, it was a phrasing problem. I do not speak of intellect or knowledge, I speak of raw sharp-mindedness and wit. I don't mean to offend anyone, and if someone takes this personally, I apologize. This isn't a personal attack against those who play witty characters.Â

However, I part from the belief that unless you're given a script, you cannot fake possessing mental faculties you truly lack. If you claim your character is intelligent enough to come back with quick-witted responses, then you, as a roleplayer, have to come up with those witty responses as quickly as your character would. For someone who isn't sharp-minded, this is nearly impossible. This usually leads to the character falling flat, because you as a roleplayer cannot keep up with the character you want to portray.

My father is an actor. He has done all kinds of acting, including Improv. Role-play is a lot like imrpov, because you don't follow a script, it's fully reactionary. He has told me that in order to portray a quick-witted person, one must be sharp minded, otherwise you won't be able to play the part.

Â
That's just it, though. RP isn't improv. I don't know of your father roleplays or is just approximating based on what you've shown him, but as someone who grew up in acting and improv and who also RPs, they are very different. Â The amount of pressure on you in improv is totally different from RP and your posting speed can very considerably without problem.Â

Also you can absolutely have a script to follow in rp, and no one will necessarily ever know about it unless they're sitting behind you at your computer watching you glance at your notes.

Ignacius · **08-20-2015, 03:03 PM**

(08-20-2015, 02:46 PM)Berrod Armstrong Wrote:
(08-20-2015, 01:32 PM)LadyRochester Wrote:
(08-20-2015, 01:22 PM)Berrod Armstrong Wrote: Perhaps a change of the thread's subject might help, if a sharp mind and quick wit is what you're talking about. Addressing the word 'dumb' may assist as well, regardless of if the intent is not to offend.Â

Not to mention, if someone not of a sharp mind cannot respond as fast as their character can, it has nothing to do with the roleplay at all. If they take five minutes to respond and simply put in their emote "Berrod Armstrong's response was almost immediate, blah blah," Then the scene has been narrated in a way that paints the character as quick witted -- even if the player took five minutes to come up with the response. It's all about the writing.

I changed it to "Witty" though this also applies to "Genius" characters so many people love to RP. And I do mean dumb, not slow. Dumb. Stupid. Not smart. Someone intellectually challenged.

Someone who even if they take five minutes to respond, no matter how great they are, their responses are hardly intelligent or thoughtful. I know far too many characters that their players OOC tell me they are "geniuses" only to find out they are acting like bumbling fools when they are put to the test, simply because the role-player is lacking in mental faculties. Characters who act irrational and emotional when their players claim they are the ultimate scientists who are oh-so-cold and calculating.
I have a hard time believing this can be quantified via your own experiences with players of lesser wit than their characters. I have roleplayed with people who are quite slow of wit -- but they see witty characters on TV or have read them in books, and use what they've seen to produce a properly convincing performance that fits their narrative well.Â

If you want to attribute it to the player's WRITING or their ability to pull from what resources and references they have available...that I can understand. The answer remains though, yeah, a less mentally proficient/witty player is capable of portraying someone with wit -- regardless of your handful of experiences.Â

It's not something that is impossible. If the less mentally proficient/witty player can write something good enough, or even get HELP from someone to write something good enough, that is literally all they need.Â

Of course, this all depends on the subjective view of what is 'dumb'. Immaturity, inexperience, a slower pace of learning can all be presented as 'dumb' by an impatient enough and judgmental enough observer.Â

Something that many of us roleplayers at times tend to be, myself included.

Wit is very deeply based on reaction, and it isn't something you can learn from television (my God can you not learn wit from modern television). Â And, unfortunately, it's not something you can replicate if you don't have it.

There are a lot of poor substitutes for wit that you may have some kind of traction today, but not wit.

SAMPLE INITIAL SENTENCE: Â Maybe if you'd just stop insulting the name of Her Majesty, you wouldn't find yourself in this trouble.

WITTY RESPONSE: Â Honestly, if we called her Liz Windsor, it wouldn't be worth the trouble.

RESPONSE I USUALLY HEAR: Â Maybe I like trouble.

RESPONSE WE'RE TALKING ABOUT: Â Maybe you should shut up!

And you know what, the latter responses are probably just fine for many characters. Â Wittiness is a character trait, not necessarily something pleasant. Â There are plenty of unpleasantly witty people. Â We're very specifically talking about someone who thinks the third response is as good as the first response if they just say, "My character's a smart ass and he's witty."

No, he's not, even if the player wants him to be.

Nebbs · **08-20-2015, 03:04 PM**

(08-20-2015, 02:39 PM)Ignacius Wrote:
(08-20-2015, 02:21 PM)Nebbs Wrote: You can roleplay what you want.Â Who is anyone to say if someone can RP, or even to judge their results? This is not a competition.

And yes you can do it with a degree of believability. The OOC use of things like google and the fact that in a fantasy setting the rules of reality are loose and not clear. There are also numerous archetypes to choose from and copy. Such as playing a conjurer as House, or the bard as the Dread Pirate Roberts, or the rogue as Vala Mal Doran. All witty characters.

And why is "witty" excluded from a dumb person anyhow? Take Sheldon Cooper and Penny, I would say Penny is the witty one of the two.

What I find more interesting is a witty and intelligent player. This comes through even in dumb characters. It is this that allows people to find a match that they can spark off and create RP fire. In my experience.

Well, unfortunately, the people who are to say if someone can RP and judge their results are the other players. Â People can RP what they want. Â At issue is our reaction as an audience.Â That's a big problem, because, like it or not, the entire point of person-to-person interaction is judgement, and RP is a social activity.

The OP has said, very directly, that the player stated that their character was a genius, and then the character very obviously was not.Â This is very important, because this isn't all that uncommon. Â Genius, wit, etc, that's all based on interaction and comes from the audience. Â We, as roleplayers, are also not in any position to be told what a character is when the character can't be backed up with actual writing. Â It doesn't make you a bad person to not want to RP with someone whose RP grates on your nerves. Â This dissonance is one of the major reasons why that has nothing to do with metagaming and bleed.

So, you can RP whatever you want, but you have no room to complain if you're frozen out of RP (also what commonly happens to these players). Â You are all judging (and being judged) every time you speak in public, including your RP skills. Â Hell, we're all judging each other here and trying desperately not to seem like we are. Â Such is the nature of social interaction.

Characters who actually seem genuinely witty and intelligent are generally written by witty and intelligent players. Â And, to be fair, it's not a pandemic of people who are punching above their weight class. Â Players tend to write characters as witty or intelligent as they can manage, which isn't what I'd call genius but not certainly dumb.

But people who are not themselves witty or intelligent at all certainly aren't going to write characters who are convincingly witty or intelligent. Â Generally, if you have to tell someone what they're supposed to think, as in the OP, you aren't convincing anyone. Â I simply don't think it's right to tell other people they have to take the character description as the gospel even when they are reading that it's inaccurate in the actual RP.

I kind of agree to some degree.Â

It seems that you are saying that as players we have certain standards and expectations that we look for in our RP interactions. That we will exclude those people that do not match our criteria from our RP? I would agree that most people have this to one degree or another.

Yet another person may find that player's RP acceptable, where as others may not.

What we take from what someone plays is up to us. In fact it is quite possible to fill in the deficiencies we see from the other player ourself. In effect compensate for the variations in style, depth etc.. Ever RPed with a children?

Now the more we have to do this the more it becomes a problem and the less likely we are to come back. The less we have to do this the better the interaction will go. I dare say the dumb person in this set-up finds the not so dumb elitist equality as frustrating and boring (Penny vs Sheldon)

I can quite accept that if someone makes no attempts to back up the assertion their character is a genius then it is definitely not convincing. Yet the question is "can" they, and with some effort they can. Some however choose not to make the effort.

V'aleera · **08-20-2015, 03:05 PM**

If being passably witty took significant skill and exceptional intelligence Joss Whedon wouldn't have a career. All behavior patterns, including wit and charm, can be easily observed and emulated. "Dumb" doesn't have anything to do with it (whatever that word is supposed to mean at any given moment).

Ignacius · **08-20-2015, 03:06 PM**

(08-20-2015, 02:58 PM)Kaiz Wrote:
(08-20-2015, 01:06 PM)LadyRochester Wrote:
(08-19-2015, 09:09 PM)Kaiz Wrote: It sounds like you don't know what you're asking. A witty person is not the same thing as an intellectual person, though those two personalities can share some common characteristics.Â

Wit and intelligence are imperfect concepts, and are usually very subjective. Everyone can be witty or intelligent in their moments, and whether that makes them a witty or intelligent person is largely up to who you ask. Wit is largely recognized by creative language on the fly, so if you can pull off witty remarks, you can pass your character off as a witty character for the most part.Â

Ultimately, roleplaying any personality that is outside your own is possible once you've broken down the characteristics that commonly define that personality, and constantly look for opportunities to show those characteristics in RP. Wit is definitely one of the harder ones to do because it heavily relies on improvisation and quick thinking, but even that can be faked with sufficient preparation.

An intellectual is easier because being intellectual is less about how intelligent you are and more about how much you care about intelligence. You can functionally have little real intelligence, but still be an intellectual because you are inquisitive, care about learning, value intelligence in others, and so on.Â

Someone mentioned charismatic characters being impossible for non-charismatic people, but that is also incorrect, and I can speak from personal experience as a steep introvert with a very tiny sphere of friends who has successfully played two extroverted socialites who had big social circles and were generally well-received by everyone. It's just a matter of defining what makes a charismatic character what they are, and setting some guidelines for yourself to encourage more sociable behavior.

Obviously, the further the target personality is from your own, and the further it is from your comfort zone, the more discipline and work it will take to pull that character off. It's never impossible, but it might not always be worth it (especially for a main character) if it's always going to be an uphill struggle for you to actualize your character.

tl;dr - Yes, it's possible, it's just harder for some than others.

As I mentioned in my post, it was a phrasing problem. I do not speak of intellect or knowledge, I speak of raw sharp-mindedness and wit. I don't mean to offend anyone, and if someone takes this personally, I apologize. This isn't a personal attack against those who play witty characters.Â

However, I part from the belief that unless you're given a script, you cannot fake possessing mental faculties you truly lack. If you claim your character is intelligent enough to come back with quick-witted responses, then you, as a roleplayer, have to come up with those witty responses as quickly as your character would. For someone who isn't sharp-minded, this is nearly impossible. This usually leads to the character falling flat, because you as a roleplayer cannot keep up with the character you want to portray.

My father is an actor. He has done all kinds of acting, including Improv. Role-play is a lot like imrpov, because you don't follow a script, it's fully reactionary. He has told me that in order to portray a quick-witted person, one must be sharp minded, otherwise you won't be able to play the part.
Â
That's just it, though. RP isn't improv. I don't know of your father roleplays or is just approximating based on what you've shown him, but as someone who grew up in acting and improv and who also RPs, they are very different. Â The amount of pressure on you in improv is totally different from RP and your posting speed can very considerably without problem.Â

Also you can absolutely have a script to follow in rp, and no one will necessarily ever know about it unless they're sitting behind you at your computer watching you glance at your notes.

RP is very definitely improvised when it's occurring in the game. Â If there's a script, it's just a story you're acting out (we're not doing a Matrix RP if we're just reciting the lines from The Matrix). Â And there is absolutely an audience out there, they're just also playing with you. Â The pressure you feel is differential by the standard you hold your own performance to.

The pinnacle of RP is to have a character people want to RP their own characters with and want to be around for their stories, and that's fundamentally a function of audience response from other writers.

Ignacius · **08-20-2015, 03:18 PM**

(08-20-2015, 03:04 PM)Nebbs Wrote:
(08-20-2015, 02:39 PM)Ignacius Wrote:
(08-20-2015, 02:21 PM)Nebbs Wrote: You can roleplay what you want.Â Who is anyone to say if someone can RP, or even to judge their results? This is not a competition.

And yes you can do it with a degree of believability. The OOC use of things like google and the fact that in a fantasy setting the rules of reality are loose and not clear. There are also numerous archetypes to choose from and copy. Such as playing a conjurer as House, or the bard as the Dread Pirate Roberts, or the rogue as Vala Mal Doran. All witty characters.

And why is "witty" excluded from a dumb person anyhow? Take Sheldon Cooper and Penny, I would say Penny is the witty one of the two.

What I find more interesting is a witty and intelligent player. This comes through even in dumb characters. It is this that allows people to find a match that they can spark off and create RP fire. In my experience.

Well, unfortunately, the people who are to say if someone can RP and judge their results are the other players. Â People can RP what they want. Â At issue is our reaction as an audience.Â That's a big problem, because, like it or not, the entire point of person-to-person interaction is judgement, and RP is a social activity.

The OP has said, very directly, that the player stated that their character was a genius, and then the character very obviously was not.Â This is very important, because this isn't all that uncommon. Â Genius, wit, etc, that's all based on interaction and comes from the audience. Â We, as roleplayers, are also not in any position to be told what a character is when the character can't be backed up with actual writing. Â It doesn't make you a bad person to not want to RP with someone whose RP grates on your nerves. Â This dissonance is one of the major reasons why that has nothing to do with metagaming and bleed.

So, you can RP whatever you want, but you have no room to complain if you're frozen out of RP (also what commonly happens to these players). Â You are all judging (and being judged) every time you speak in public, including your RP skills. Â Hell, we're all judging each other here and trying desperately not to seem like we are. Â Such is the nature of social interaction.

Characters who actually seem genuinely witty and intelligent are generally written by witty and intelligent players. Â And, to be fair, it's not a pandemic of people who are punching above their weight class. Â Players tend to write characters as witty or intelligent as they can manage, which isn't what I'd call genius but not certainly dumb.

But people who are not themselves witty or intelligent at all certainly aren't going to write characters who are convincingly witty or intelligent. Â Generally, if you have to tell someone what they're supposed to think, as in the OP, you aren't convincing anyone. Â I simply don't think it's right to tell other people they have to take the character description as the gospel even when they are reading that it's inaccurate in the actual RP.

I kind of agree to some degree.Â

It seems that you are saying that as players we have certain standards and expectations that we look for in our RP interactions. That we will exclude those people that do not match our criteria from our RP? I would agree that most people have this to one degree or another.

Yet another person may find that player's RP acceptable, where as others may not.

What we take from what someone plays is up to us. In fact it is quite possible to fill in the deficiencies we see from the other player ourself. In effect compensate for the variations in style, depth etc.. Ever RPed with a children?

Now the more we have to do this the more it becomes a problem and the less likely we are to come back. The less we have to do this the better the interaction will go. I dare say the dumb person in this set-up finds the not so dumb elitist equality as frustrating and boring (Penny vs Sheldon)

I can quite accept that if someone makes no attempts to back up the assertion their character is a genius then it is definitely not convincing. Yet the question is "can" they, and with some effort they can. Some however choose not to make the effort.

Going by this analogy, everyone believes Penny and Sheldon to be intelligent people. Â We're talking about the equivalent of Rick Ross trying to ghost write his own scientist character in, expecting to have the audience receive him as a genius.

Hey, I would believe Rick Ross writing himself as a threatening, muscle-bound thug. Â Not only was he a corrections officer, but he seems to understand that lifestyle. Â But nobody is going to buy him as a scientist when he's running on his own wit.

There's no problem being as witty, intelligent, or charismatic as you can be, but punching above your weight comes across differently in RP. Â Because the writing and acting are happening simultaneously, the audience receives a character who thinks he's smarter, wittier, and more charismatic than he actually is.

Honestly, I can't even recommend people don't play a charismatic character unless they know their limits, as an aside. Â I can't stress that enough.

In any case, it's not endemic because people don't usually play characters like "genius", "charming", or "witty". Â Most experienced RPers know better. Â They throw out witty lines or are charming as a byproduct of the character, and so they operate within their limits simply because they aren't shooting higher.

And, let's be frank, we're ABLE to be things that we aren't, but can certainly RP. Â I mean, most of us can be a lot wittier than we are, but we tend to temper it with some pleasantness so we bite off a lot of our witty repartee if it's too mean. Â Our RP characters might not be anywhere near so limited.

But yes, there is such a thing as trying to play someone above your weight class, and the best way to avoid it is to let the audience decide your characters' intelligence organically and just play what your character would play. Â At the very least, someone might say, "Look, he's not Mark Twain, but the guy knows his machines."

GloryRhodes · **08-20-2015, 03:25 PM**

(08-20-2015, 03:18 PM)Ignacius Wrote: Going by this analogy, everyone believes Penny and Sheldon to be intelligent people. Â We're talking about the equivalent of Rick Ross trying to ghost write his own scientist character in, expecting to have the audience receive him as a genius.

Hey, I would believe Rick Ross writing himself as a threatening, muscle-bound thug. Â Not only was he a corrections officer, but he seems to understand that lifestyle. Â But nobody is going to buy him as a scientist when he's running on his own wit.

There's no problem being as witty, intelligent, or charismatic as you can be, but punching above your weight comes across differently in RP. Â Because the writing and acting are happening simultaneously, the audience receives a character who thinks he's smarter, wittier, and more charismatic than he actually is.

Honestly, I can't even recommend people don't play a charismatic character unless they know their limits, as an aside. Â I can't stress that enough.

In any case, it's not endemic because people don't usually play characters like "genius", "charming", or "witty". Â Most experienced RPers know better. Â They throw out witty lines or are charming as a byproduct of the character, and so they operate within their limits simply because they aren't shooting higher.

And, let's be frank, we're ABLE to be things that we aren't, but can certainly RP. Â I mean, most of us can be a lot wittier than we are, but we tend to temper it with some pleasantness so we bite off a lot of our witty repartee if it's too mean. Â Our RP characters might not be anywhere near so limited.

But yes, there is such a thing as trying to play someone above your weight class, and the best way to avoid it is to let the audience decide your characters' intelligence organically and just play what your character would play. Â At the very least, someone might say, "Look, he's not Mark Twain, but the guy knows his machines."

Â So, are you thinking you're one of the ones who are witty? Â Because that is not what I'm taking away here.

You just made two posts in a row. Â whhhhy

It feels spammy with the way I learned to post in forums

THERE'S AN EDIT BUTTON~~~~

YOU CAN EDIT THE QUOTES YOU QUOTE

FORUM POSTING IS NOT ENGINEERING

QUOTE TREES!

Ignacius · **08-20-2015, 03:32 PM**

(08-20-2015, 03:25 PM)GloryRhodes Wrote:
(08-20-2015, 03:18 PM)Ignacius Wrote: Going by this analogy, everyone believes Penny and Sheldon to be intelligent people. Â We're talking about the equivalent of Rick Ross trying to ghost write his own scientist character in, expecting to have the audience receive him as a genius.

Hey, I would believe Rick Ross writing himself as a threatening, muscle-bound thug. Â Not only was he a corrections officer, but he seems to understand that lifestyle. Â But nobody is going to buy him as a scientist when he's running on his own wit.

There's no problem being as witty, intelligent, or charismatic as you can be, but punching above your weight comes across differently in RP. Â Because the writing and acting are happening simultaneously, the audience receives a character who thinks he's smarter, wittier, and more charismatic than he actually is.

Honestly, I can't even recommend people don't play a charismatic character unless they know their limits, as an aside. Â I can't stress that enough.

In any case, it's not endemic because people don't usually play characters like "genius", "charming", or "witty". Â Most experienced RPers know better. Â They throw out witty lines or are charming as a byproduct of the character, and so they operate within their limits simply because they aren't shooting higher.

And, let's be frank, we're ABLE to be things that we aren't, but can certainly RP. Â I mean, most of us can be a lot wittier than we are, but we tend to temper it with some pleasantness so we bite off a lot of our witty repartee if it's too mean. Â Our RP characters might not be anywhere near so limited.

But yes, there is such a thing as trying to play someone above your weight class, and the best way to avoid it is to let the audience decide your characters' intelligence organically and just play what your character would play. Â At the very least, someone might say, "Look, he's not Mark Twain, but the guy knows his machines."
Â So, are you thinking you're one of the ones who are witty? Â Because that is not what I'm taking away here.

You just made two posts in a row. Â whhhhy

It feels spammy with the way I learned to post in forums

THERE'S AN EDIT BUTTON~~~~

YOU CAN EDIT THE QUOTES YOU QUOTE

FORUM POSTING IS NOT ENGINEERING

QUOTE TREES!

I responded to two different people. Â Context is important.

Whether I'm witty or not isn't really something I can comment on. Â I'm just describing what I know from my pretty extensive open RP. Â I'm not sure precisely what part of the quoted response might mean I have that high of an opinion of myself (I definitely follow my own advice and I don't play characters to be intelligent, witty, or charismatic, but simply play to the character and let the other players judge the character).

Again, context is important.

Lydia Lightfoot · **08-20-2015, 03:49 PM**

This is actually a key reason why tabletop RPGs make use of stats and dice rolls. Consider a more basic application of what you're asking, ignoring abstracts like wit:

Can a player who knows nothing about sailing properly roleplay a sailor?

Let's make two assumptions: #1 is that said player doesn't resolve their ignorance of sailing practices by means of research. For some reason, he's simply anti-learning. #2 is that said sailor character is intended to have a competent and able effectiveness at sailing, and so shouldn't generally have any problem with the task.

In a tabletop setting, said character would have a relevant basic stat representing his personal overall level of mental condition, which then in one way or another affects, or is affected by, a separate stat representing his personal proficiency at the task of sailing. Combine them together in whatever method the particular rule system requires, and roll a die. The goal is also specified by the system - sometimes you just have to roll over or under whatever the number of your skill is, or maybe the person moderating the game sets a number and you have to roll over it, adding in applicable bonuses from your skill proficiency. Either way, dice and math tell the tale. Did the character succeed at sailing the ship? He either did or he didn't.

As you can probably imagine this requires little descriptive effort on the part of the storyteller or the participant, and results in a bland game. "Well, let's sail away." "Okay, roll on your sailing skill to see if you're able to ready the ship and escape before the dock authorities catch up to your party." "I got a total of 26." "Alright, you've succeeded, and you can see the guards on the dock behind you shaking their fists as your ship sails away."

On the other hand, it's also efficient for a tabletop game. Many players at the table might not care to hear about the types of knots the seaman is making, and in which exact order the sails are raised, and so on. These details aren't as relevant to them as the progression of the action and the overall story - even though it might be interesting for cinematic sake to have some description of the non-sailors running around trying to grab ropes while the sailor is frantically shouting instructions at them for how they can help him out, and meanwhile the guards are coming down the hill towards the docks...

So in a sense, you have to ask yourself the same counter-question regarding the main question - is it important to roleplay the minutia of /how/ a character is witty? Maybe. In a back-and-forth conversation, it's probably important for the player to be able to actually write their character as seeming witty. They can't exactly just send you a tell that says "btw my toon is super witty so react accordingly" and expect you to do so regardless of what they write in their posts. On the other hand, nothing stops them from simply playing the character as being a bit taciturn in public RP. There's a saying about it being better to remain silent and risk being thought foolish than to speak and remove doubt. That actually goes all the way back to biblical times:Â

Even a fool, when he holdeth his peace, is counted wise: and he that shutteth his lips is esteemed a man of understanding.

Meanwhile, in a less public scenario - say, a plot being run with a few friends - the person running the plot, in acknowledgement of the player's intention for his character to be witty, could feed him information via tells. For instance, there could be some riddle the group comes across, and he privately provides that player with some clues that he can then emote his character noticing. Suddenly, in the closed RP scene, the character /does/ appear to be witty! All it took was the storyteller acknowledging the other player's struggle and offering help for them to bring their character's intended persona to realization.

Following the plot, the tales told by the group would undoubtedly include mention of how clever this character was in resolving their problem. Going back to his manner in public, he'd simply nod as he looks off into the distance.

Of course, this all relies upon the player having good friends willing to help him to back up what he's doing with his toon. It also requires him to have some careful planning. In other words, he might have to be witty in order to pull off being witty when he's not witty, which itself is a paradox.

Then again, you can't exactly tell people "if you're not witty, don't try to play a witty toon", because if someone isn't witty, could they reliably realize that they aren't, or are they more likely to not realize it and believe that they are in fact witty, and merely brush aside contrary evidence from others as examples instead of those others being rude, dismissive, clique-ish, or whatever? Another paradox.

Warren Castille · **08-20-2015, 04:31 PM**

Self-assigning traits is an easy mistake. Calling yourself "genius" or "witty" or "brave" or "badass" doesn't do anything if your roleplay and writing don't back it up.

Do you, and people will make the connections if you're able to fit the criteria.

Kaiz · **08-20-2015, 04:33 PM**

@Ignatius
"Improv" and "improvised" are not the same thing. You're way oversimplifying.

Lydia Lightfoot · **08-20-2015, 04:58 PM**

(08-20-2015, 04:31 PM)Warren Castille Wrote: Self-assigning traits is an easy mistake. Calling yourself "genius" or "witty" or "brave" or "badass" doesn't do anything if your roleplay and writing don't back it up.

Do you, and people will make the connections if you're able to fit the criteria.

As far as what others would say about your toon, absolutely. But, when someone creates a toon and they're trying to figure out what personality they'll have, it's pretty normal for the player to have an "intended" portrayal. Whether or not they're capable of succeeding at that portrayal based on their own personality as a player is the question at hand.

Warren Castille · **08-20-2015, 05:08 PM**

(08-20-2015, 04:58 PM)Calliope Cloverbloom Wrote:
(08-20-2015, 04:31 PM)Warren Castille Wrote: Self-assigning traits is an easy mistake. Calling yourself "genius" or "witty" or "brave" or "badass" doesn't do anything if your roleplay and writing don't back it up.

Do you, and people will make the connections if you're able to fit the criteria.

As far as what others would say about your toon, absolutely. But, when someone creates a toon and they're trying to figure out what personality they'll have, it's pretty normal for the player to have an "intended" portrayal. Whether or not they're capable of succeeding at that portrayal based on their own personality as a player is the question at hand.

Yes, and I'm saying that's an easy mistake to make. There's plenty of people who have things like "This person can stare down and terrify even the most hardened so-and-so" and that sort of mentality arranges expectations. If you decide that your character is quick with a joke in tense situations, you had better be able to deliver on it.

There's a level of self-awareness that requires, though, which is why it's so simple to trip up. Wanting to play a witty, sly character when you don't have a slippery bone in your body is stacking the deck against you.

Aduu Avagnar · **08-20-2015, 05:14 PM**

I agree with ignacious in the most part. You are limited by what you can write. If you cannot display wit or inteligence through your writing, then no one is going to believe your character witty or inteligent.

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"Witty" characters, can they be roleplayed by the dumb?

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