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Ignacius · **08-26-2015, 09:58 AM**

I'll put it this way, RPers aren't usually going to have a problem if they know what they're getting into, but things like race and gender are written into the character and are taken, up-front, as read. Â Trying to do an end-run around them is usually not worth the trouble.

Sometimes, it's not such a problem. Â In WoW, for example, the Death Knights are, by lore, meant to be dead but there is a loophole to state that they may not be. Â People playing live Death Knights tend to catch some flack, but not much. Â It usually doesn't come up in introductory conversation.

However, sometimes it can be a problem. Â Also in WoW, I played with someone who played a female character who was meant to be a slim male. Â That really didn't work that well. Â People automatically assumed the character was a woman (despite his RSP and protestations). Â Most people he met automatically assumed he was a male and, when politely "corrected", weren't interested in playing with him. Â Just because having to go OOC within the first few minutes is NOT good.

So generally speaking, you can minimize the issue in some situations, but you'd better be ready to have an IC reason to roll with the punches. Â For example, if your Au Ra is actually a Padjal, you HAVE to have your character ready to accept that IC. Â Hell, you might WANT that misinformation, to have people think you're an Au Ra when you're not.

Making up your tribe is comparatively easier, though. Â That's not written on your character. Â You should be fine.

Amelia · **08-26-2015, 10:42 AM**

I might just be lore-stupid... but I thought that in and through ARR, a lot of those job classes were actually making a comeback.

I can't really say for BLM as I don't know much about the story, but for WHM, the Padjals are bringin' WHM back like Justin Timberlake, as far as I can tell.

Am I wrong for making my character a White Mage ICly because I assume I wouldn't be the ONLY one to learn under the Padjals?

Sylentmana · **08-26-2015, 01:02 PM**

(08-26-2015, 10:42 AM)Amelia Wrote: I might just be lore-stupid... but I thought that in and through ARR, a lot of those job classes were actually making a comeback.

I can't really say for BLM as I don't know much about the story, but for WHM, the Padjals are bringin' WHM back like Justin Timberlake, as far as I can tell.

Am I wrong for making my character a White Mage ICly because I assume I wouldn't be the ONLY one to learn under the Padjals?

That there is a can of worms you don't want to open. Trust me, it never goes well.

Sin · **08-26-2015, 01:39 PM**

(08-26-2015, 01:02 PM)Sylentmana Wrote:
(08-26-2015, 10:42 AM)Amelia Wrote: I might just be lore-stupid... but I thought that in and through ARR, a lot of those job classes were actually making a comeback.

I can't really say for BLM as I don't know much about the story, but for WHM, the Padjals are bringin' WHM back like Justin Timberlake, as far as I can tell.

Am I wrong for making my character a White Mage ICly because I assume I wouldn't be the ONLY one to learn under the Padjals?

That there is a can of worms you don't want to open. Trust me, it never goes well.

It goes well sometimes.

But, Amelia, yes, you're wrong. The Padjals aren't bringing WHM back like JT. In fact, quite the opposite... they'reÂ very distrustful of you, and everyone else for that matter. They safeguard the secrets to Succor like if they were nuclear launch control codes.

Which they are. Since, you know, whole world got nuked last time people learned willy nilly.

The main character of the game, the Warrior of Light is made the exception AFTER A LOT OF PROTESTATION, with a Soulstone loving you up and by then you were a bona-fide, primal slaying, beefcake that lived to protect Eorzea, and had the backing of the three nations.

FreelanceWizard · **08-26-2015, 01:49 PM**

(08-26-2015, 10:42 AM)Amelia Wrote: I can't really say for BLM as I don't know much about the story, but for WHM, the Padjals are bringin' WHM back like Justin Timberlake, as far as I can tell.

Am I wrong for making my character a White Mage ICly because I assume I wouldn't be the ONLY one to learn under the Padjals?

Actually, in the lore panel at Fanfest, it was confirmed by Fernehalwes that the mechanism of learning Succor portrayed in the MSQ is available to the Warrior of Light alone, and that the Padjal aren't teaching it to others. He did mention, though, that there are other means of accessing Succor. Depending on how you interpret what he said, those means are nefarious or some of the people pursuing them/those means are nefarious. (I don't have the link handy, but I expect Sounsyy will be around with it soon enough. Smile

)

While several of the Jobs are accessible pre-HW without too much creative license, things expand a bit more in Heavensward. A whole organization is learning and using Black Magic, though without soulstones, the consequences of its regular use are... fiery, and Gridania prosecutes the ban on Black Magic in a clearly extraterritorial fashion. Machinists actually manufacture soulstones, which is an interesting spin on the concept. The Monks are actively training students and research on and knowledge of Summoning is spreading more widely. Sadly, White Mage remains pretty much locked down for now; its quest line keeps the same "special snowflake" concept.

EDIT: With all that said, though, there's very few doors that are firmly shut in XIV, and there's ways to work around the restrictions in your backstory. Maybe a rogue Padjal taught you, maybe you stumbled onto it in your own research, maybe you ran into a Soulstone in Amdapori ruins, etc. Of course, in none of those cases is your character a White Mage per se, as that's something of a sociopolitical construct in Gridania as much as it's a name for one who wields Succor. Also, there's going to be a fair number of powerful people and things gunning for you if it becomes obvious you've gotten access to Succor through one of the various "back doors."

V'aleera · **08-26-2015, 01:51 PM**

(08-26-2015, 01:39 PM)Sin Wrote: The main character of the game, the Warrior of Light is made the exception AFTER A LOT OF PROTESTATION

Though to be clear, those protesting were entirely incapable of stopping the Warrior of Light from accessing White Magic (save through plain force). Once the WoL got picked by the soul crystal the matter was entirely out of the hands of the Padjal and the Elementals.

Verad · **08-26-2015, 02:00 PM**

(08-26-2015, 03:29 AM)Kismet Wrote: It's all in the presentation!Â

My main, Y'raja, calls herself the actual Godsbow. She does this in an intentionally boisterous and obnoxious manner, to such a point that a person's character would either have to be tremendously sheltered/gullible or brain-dead to believe that BS. Does she actually believe this herself? Nah. It's more of a long-running joke that's spawned from a mix of fond childhood memories and nervous things that were blurted out by mistake. But will she gladly ride the wave of ANYONE who'd actually think she's serious? Hell, yeah!

As others have said, if you can't convey this well IC, there's nothing wrong with some OOC clarification of "hey, my character's just crazy/goofy/a moron". The majority of people should understand. =)

As Eorzea's Greatest Archer, Pending Certain Conditions, I call into question the veracity of this claim.

Verad is also, not incidentally, Eorzea's Greatest Lover and Master Merchant. It's all in the memoirs really.

Amelia · **08-26-2015, 03:12 PM**

-deep sigh- Oh well... I guess at the very least, Amelia doesn't ICly CALL herself that... I just do. Kind of sucks... I don't want to be a special snowflake, I just wanna be a damn White Mage...

I guess as long as I just keep continuing to play her ICly as a gifted healer no one will notice my sin and shame...

-slinks off to lurk again for several months-

**Unnamed Mercenary** · **08-26-2015, 03:57 PM**

(08-26-2015, 03:12 PM)Amelia Wrote: -deep sigh- Oh well... I guess at the very least, Amelia doesn't ICly CALL herself that... I just do. Kind of sucks... I don't want to be a special snowflake, I just wanna be a damn White Mage...

I guess as long as I just keep continuing to play her ICly as a gifted healer no one will notice my sin and shame...

-slinks off to lurk again for several months-

Wait! Come back! There's something you brought up that could be an excellent and potentially dangerous topic of discussion: What is it about having the title of White Mage that makes it more appealing than say, a Conjuror, Arcanist, Astrologian or Scholar? Naturally, we know that White Mage is a big-name job within the Final Fantasy series. But that's a concept that widens the scope of discussion beyond just FFXIV.

Amelia · **08-26-2015, 04:13 PM**

(08-26-2015, 03:57 PM)Unnamed Mercenary Wrote:
(08-26-2015, 03:12 PM)Amelia Wrote: -deep sigh- Oh well... I guess at the very least, Amelia doesn't ICly CALL herself that... I just do. Kind of sucks... I don't want to be a special snowflake, I just wanna be a damn White Mage...

I guess as long as I just keep continuing to play her ICly as a gifted healer no one will notice my sin and shame...

-slinks off to lurk again for several months-

Wait! Come back! There's something you brought up that could be an excellent and potentially dangerous topic of discussion: What is it about having the title of White Mage that makes it more appealing than say, a Conjuror, Arcanist, Astrologian or Scholar? Naturally, we know that White Mage is a big-name job within the Final Fantasy series. But that's a concept that widens the scope of discussion beyond just FFXIV.

-mutters softly- Conjurers don't get the cool classic robes. They get shapeless potato sacks.

I guess being a long time fan of FF9, I always wanted to make a WHM/SMN combo. It's no secret that Amelia is heavily based off of Dagger. So naturally the role of a WHM and SMN was very appealing to me.

But you're right. It is really the title I'm being a baby about. I get bristly sometimes when I'm told "No, you can't do that because of lore" when mechanically, I WORKED for that damn title. I healed that damn tree with my own blood and sweat... leaving it a really messed up looking and smelling tree in the Black Shroud, but DAMN that quest was hard at the time!

Would being a conjurer instead of White Mage change Amelia's story? No. Mainly because I don't really have her walking around calling herself that. Again, it's just something I associate her with. I guess the most she'd ever say is call some of her abilities 'White Magic.'

I don't really want to make people mad by bending or breaking lore, but telling someone that they can't ICly be something that they can actually be in the game just seems... I dunno. There's a word for it that escapes me. Unfair-ish?

Again, it's not something I want because I want my character to be a special snowflake... but because it's something that just feels like it really fits. I know that thinking and feeling this way is wrong as a Role-player... and I know a lot of people disagree. For that I apologize.

**Unnamed Mercenary** · **08-26-2015, 04:23 PM**

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Quotes Text

(08-26-2015, 04:13 PM)Amelia Wrote:
(08-26-2015, 03:57 PM)Unnamed Mercenary Wrote:
(08-26-2015, 03:12 PM)Amelia Wrote: -deep sigh- Oh well... I guess at the very least, Amelia doesn't ICly CALL herself that... I just do. Kind of sucks... I don't want to be a special snowflake, I just wanna be a damn White Mage...

I guess as long as I just keep continuing to play her ICly as a gifted healer no one will notice my sin and shame...

-slinks off to lurk again for several months-

Wait! Come back! There's something you brought up that could be an excellent and potentially dangerous topic of discussion: What is it about having the title of White Mage that makes it more appealing than say, a Conjuror, Arcanist, Astrologian or Scholar? Naturally, we know that White Mage is a big-name job within the Final Fantasy series. But that's a concept that widens the scope of discussion beyond just FFXIV.

-mutters softly- Conjurers don't get the cool classic robes. They get shapeless potato sacks.

I guess being a long time fan of FF9, I always wanted to make a WHM/SMN combo. It's no secret that Amelia is heavily based off of Dagger. So naturally the role of a WHM and SMN was very appealing to me.

But you're right. It is really the title I'm being a baby about. I get bristly sometimes when I'm told "No, you can't do that because of lore" when mechanically, I WORKED for that damn title. I healed that damn tree with my own blood and sweat... leaving it a really messed up looking and smelling tree in the Black Shroud, but DAMN that quest was hard at the time!

Would being a conjurer instead of White Mage change Amelia's story? No. Mainly because I don't really have her walking around calling herself that. Again, it's just something I associate her with. I guess the most she'd ever say is call some of her abilities 'White Magic.'

I don't really want to make people mad by bending or breaking lore, but telling someone that they can't ICly be something that they can actually be in the game just seems... I dunno. There's a word for it that escapes me. Unfair-ish?

Again, it's not something I want because I want my character to be a special snowflake... but because it's something that just feels like it really fits. I know that thinking and feeling this way is wrong as a Role-player... and I know a lot of people disagree. For that I apologize.

Here is the part I tell you something amazing: Most of those fancy WHM robes really have nothing to do with White Mages (in FFXIV)! (Aside from the lv50 stuff. Yes, you did dig up a dead guy's robes that had been spread around the country). That fancy i90 robe? Rowena made 'em. All the other gear you've gotten from her? Basically crafted. So...yes, it might require the job crystal to equip because of game mechanics, but that's simply glamour and battle mechanics. Replicas of "legendary" or "artifact" equipment is [while yes, maybe rare for poor people or nonadventurers] common enough for people to have!

You've nothing to apologize for! Look the way to want to. Smile

...now if you start casting White Magic, the lore hounds may OOCly question how. (but looking at the skills, the Battle Team at SE has made skills inconsistent all over. Why are Cure 2 and Aero 3 somehow Succor but the rest aren't?!)

Little edit: The colors of the CNJ robes are actually their rank. So I guess one levels from boring potato sack to shiny potato sack. :p

Sylentmana · **08-26-2015, 04:30 PM**

(08-26-2015, 04:13 PM)Amelia Wrote:
(08-26-2015, 03:57 PM)Unnamed Mercenary Wrote:
(08-26-2015, 03:12 PM)Amelia Wrote: -deep sigh- Oh well... I guess at the very least, Amelia doesn't ICly CALL herself that... I just do. Kind of sucks... I don't want to be a special snowflake, I just wanna be a damn White Mage...

I guess as long as I just keep continuing to play her ICly as a gifted healer no one will notice my sin and shame...

-slinks off to lurk again for several months-

Wait! Come back! There's something you brought up that could be an excellent and potentially dangerous topic of discussion: What is it about having the title of White Mage that makes it more appealing than say, a Conjuror, Arcanist, Astrologian or Scholar? Naturally, we know that White Mage is a big-name job within the Final Fantasy series. But that's a concept that widens the scope of discussion beyond just FFXIV.

-mutters softly- Conjurers don't get the cool classic robes. They get shapeless potato sacks.

I guess being a long time fan of FF9, I always wanted to make a WHM/SMN combo. It's no secret that Amelia is heavily based off of Dagger. So naturally the role of a WHM and SMN was very appealing to me.

But you're right. It is really the title I'm being a baby about. I get bristly sometimes when I'm told "No, you can't do that because of lore" when mechanically, I WORKED for that damn title. I healed that damn tree with my own blood and sweat... leaving it a really messed up looking and smelling tree in the Black Shroud, but DAMN that quest was hard at the time!

Would being a conjurer instead of White Mage change Amelia's story? No. Mainly because I don't really have her walking around calling herself that. Again, it's just something I associate her with. I guess the most she'd ever say is call some of her abilities 'White Magic.'

I don't really want to make people mad by bending or breaking lore, but telling someone that they can't ICly be something that they can actually be in the game just seems... I dunno. There's a word for it that escapes me. Unfair-ish?

Again, it's not something I want because I want my character to be a special snowflake... but because it's something that just feels like it really fits. I know that thinking and feeling this way is wrong as a Role-player... and I know a lot of people disagree. For that I apologize.

I totally get what you mean and feel the same way. Like you, my character is based on a Final Fantasy character (Refia, also a little bit on Mia from Golden Sun), and it ruffle my feathers when I was told by others that I am breaking lore. Honestly, though, I think it should only serve to encourage players like us to get more creative in our characters' presentations.

FreelanceWizard · **08-26-2015, 04:51 PM**

(08-26-2015, 04:23 PM)Unnamed Mercenary Wrote: You've nothing to apologize for! Look the way to want to. ...now if you start casting White Magic, the lore hounds may OOCly question how. (but looking at the skills, the Battle Team at SE has made skills inconsistent all over. Why are Cure 2 and Aero 3 somehow Succor but the rest aren't?!)

The lore and battle teams have an unfortunate history of coming into conflict in XIV -- the moving of elemental offensive magic to Thaumaturgy from Conjury is one such example that they've admitted to. I think it's safe to say that the battle team will sometimes say, "These are WHM Job skills because they'd be OP if they could be cross-classed or available to CNJ," and then the lore team says, "Welp, time to sweep that under the rug." Tongue

I'm a big supporter of "if the game says you can, you should be able to do so," which is why I advocate different approaches to using Succor or, indeed, using spells that the game classifies as Succor in a way that makes them not Succor. If your character's a skilled conjuror, surely they've created some spells of their own, perhaps some to keep people in the fight with less effort (Regen)? That big explosion of light you do (Holy)? Why, that's just a lightning-aspected spell (since we know that conjurers, per lore, have access to elemental magic). On the black mage side, that's not the "Flare" of the War of the Magi, it's just a customized, augmented fire spell.

To paraphrase a common (and silly, when you think about it) saying, when the lore team closes a door, they open a window. Smile

XIV really doesn't ban much of anything, and even when it bans one approach, others still exist, ready to be employed by the enterprising RPer.

S'imba · **08-26-2015, 07:13 PM**

(08-26-2015, 04:51 PM)FreelanceWizard Wrote:
(08-26-2015, 04:23 PM)Unnamed Mercenary Wrote: You've nothing to apologize for! Look the way to want to. Â ...now if you start casting White Magic, the lore hounds may OOCly question how. (but looking at the skills, the Battle Team at SE has made skills inconsistent all over. Why are Cure 2 and Aero 3 somehow Succor but the rest aren't?!)

The lore and battle teams have an unfortunate history of coming into conflict in XIV -- the moving of elemental offensive magic to Thaumaturgy from Conjury is one such example that they've admitted to. I think it's safe to say that the battle team will sometimes say, "These are WHM Job skills because they'd be OP if they could be cross-classed or available to CNJ," and then the lore team says, "Welp, time to sweep that under the rug."

I'm a big supporter of "if the game says you can, you should be able to do so," which is why I advocate different approaches to using Succor or, indeed, using spells that the game classifies as Succor in a way that makes them not Succor. If your character's a skilled conjuror, surely they've created some spells of their own, perhaps some to keep people in the fight with less effort (Regen)? That big explosion of light you do (Holy)? Why, that's just a lightning-aspected spell (since we know that conjurers, per lore, have access to elemental magic). On the black mage side, that's not the "Flare" of the War of the Magi, it's just a customized, augmented fire spell.

To paraphrase a common (and silly, when you think about it) saying, when the lore team closes a door, they open a window. XIV really doesn't ban much of anything, and even when it bans one approach, others still exist, ready to be employed by the enterprising RPer.

This is the perfect point. I personally believe that SE keeps the lore really loosely defined to keep one of the big visions behind at least the original final fantasy alive. The whole the player being in control of the story, though this could only be done to an extent since there still needs to be some sort of story for the player to follow. They want the player to have an extent of control over what goes on in the game. Though it is much harder to accomplish in a mmo setting I still think they try their best to stick with it. Give the player enough information to be able to create a character off of.Â

Though more on topic there is a good chance of some people who would try to harass you about breaking the lore, since some people tend to take anything a character says about themselves as what their character is saying is 100% true. They get so caught up in telling people off about how they are a lore breaker they don't really take the time to think that there are other factors contributing to why they are claiming that point.Â

If it's something your character would do, go for it. Hopefully you find a lot of gullible people to believe her. I mean S'imba is at least gullible enough to fall for most anything someone claims to be.

Amelia · **08-27-2015, 10:13 AM**

(08-26-2015, 07:13 PM)Simba Wrote:
(08-26-2015, 04:51 PM)FreelanceWizard Wrote:
(08-26-2015, 04:23 PM)Unnamed Mercenary Wrote: You've nothing to apologize for! Look the way to want to. Â ...now if you start casting White Magic, the lore hounds may OOCly question how. (but looking at the skills, the Battle Team at SE has made skills inconsistent all over. Why are Cure 2 and Aero 3 somehow Succor but the rest aren't?!)

The lore and battle teams have an unfortunate history of coming into conflict in XIV -- the moving of elemental offensive magic to Thaumaturgy from Conjury is one such example that they've admitted to. I think it's safe to say that the battle team will sometimes say, "These are WHM Job skills because they'd be OP if they could be cross-classed or available to CNJ," and then the lore team says, "Welp, time to sweep that under the rug."

I'm a big supporter of "if the game says you can, you should be able to do so," which is why I advocate different approaches to using Succor or, indeed, using spells that the game classifies as Succor in a way that makes them not Succor. If your character's a skilled conjuror, surely they've created some spells of their own, perhaps some to keep people in the fight with less effort (Regen)? That big explosion of light you do (Holy)? Why, that's just a lightning-aspected spell (since we know that conjurers, per lore, have access to elemental magic). On the black mage side, that's not the "Flare" of the War of the Magi, it's just a customized, augmented fire spell.

To paraphrase a common (and silly, when you think about it) saying, when the lore team closes a door, they open a window. XIV really doesn't ban much of anything, and even when it bans one approach, others still exist, ready to be employed by the enterprising RPer.
This is the perfect point. I personally believe that SE keeps the lore really loosely defined to keep one of the big visions behind at least the original final fantasy alive. The whole the player being in control of the story, though this could only be done to an extent since there still needs to be some sort of story for the player to follow. They want the player to have an extent of control over what goes on in the game. Though it is much harder to accomplish in a mmo setting I still think they try their best to stick with it. Give the player enough information to be able to create a character off of.Â

Though more on topic there is a good chance of some people who would try to harass you about breaking the lore, since some people tend to take anything a character says about themselves as what their character is saying is 100% true. They get so caught up in telling people off about how they are a lore breaker they don't really take the time to think that there are other factors contributing to why they are claiming that point.Â

If it's something your character would do, go for it. Hopefully you find a lot of gullible people to believe her. I mean S'imba is at least gullible enough to fall for most anything someone claims to be.

Well, again. Ami would never just outright call herself a White Mage. It's plainly what I call her, because that's what I associate her with. Fits the character. I don't think she ever gives herself a title as such other than 'a gifted healer.'

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characters that seemingly break lore (but don't)

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