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Sounsyy · **09-01-2015, 01:23 AM**

(09-01-2015, 12:00 AM)Jana Wrote: Ishgard is not Japan. There are plenty of Hyur in the country that aren't lowborn. They are still nobles, even if they're just not heads of the four main houses. The sidequests in there imply you can become a noble by slaying an important enough dragon (which is what a lot of the knights/"plain dragoons" are trying to do in W. Coerthas).

(09-01-2015, 12:02 AM)Valeera Wrote: As far as the lore has been written to this point, nobility is defined by blood. Citizenship is not clearly defined, but probably involves birth, naturalization, and religion.

I think the distinction should be made that High Nobility is defined by blood. The Archbishop and the Four High Houses are blood descended from the first twelve knights.

Lesser Nobility is earned through noble deeds. Which is probably why Ishgard has so many dang Saints. Saint Daniffen, Saint Valeroyant, Saint Reinette, Saint Reymanaud, Saint Finnea... the list goes on.

Dominiac Wrote:The only way to gain the power of nobility is through a truly noble display of courage. There's one simple way to do that - slay a monstrous, ancient dragon. There are some feats that cannot be ignored.

Kenwrec Wrote:...Disenfranchised nobles and their retainers, penniless vagabonds and half-mad sellswords - aye, we're a contemptible lot of cads, bounders, and dragon stabbers. But we are all committed to the cause, may Saint Finnea watch over and keep us safe.

V'aleera · **09-01-2015, 01:24 AM**

(09-01-2015, 01:13 AM)Flashhelix Wrote: To just assume that Ratatoskr's blood, one of the biggest revelations in the HW MSQ, doesn't figure into the job class that are not only considered to be the symbol of Ishgard but also stated to have an "inner dragon" of sorts that is implied to be far more than metaphorical is pretty ridiculous.

You mean like how the entire 30-50 DRG job class story had absolutely zero to do with any dragoon save the formerly one, now two, special snowflakes? And that "inner dragon" stuff is almost exclusively stated in reference to the Azure Dragoon.

And now that I'm thinking about it, did the "Sanguine Dragoon" even use any of the magical abilities in the course of those quests?

Oli! · **09-01-2015, 01:27 AM**

(08-31-2015, 11:42 PM)Sounsyy Wrote: snip

To be honest, this seems to be just as speculative as anything else that's been stated in this thread.

Dravania is open territory, with more than one point of access. Anyone could have gotten in there, and Q'yantaa is not only heavily implied as being new to the camp in the quest text...

"Among many other facts, you learn that the prospect of a quick fortune brings many inexperienced hunters to Tailfeather in hopes of joining in on the lucrative chocobo hunting trade. He introduces you to Q'yantaa, a young Miqo'te who wishes to fill her pockets in the Dravanian forelands."

...She is also actually stated to be new to the area by Loupard, the head hunter:

"'Course, you can't forget those that're just here for a quick bucketful of gil--chasin' the gold chocobo, so to speak. The promise of riches brings new blood from all over Eorzea... Ain't that right, Q'yantaa?"

Additionally, just because there are miqo'te in Coerthas does not mean that they would be readily accepted in Ishgardian society, or that they areÂ within that society at all.Â L'khonebb could have easily made their way into the city to work for the Ironworks installation there by Cid, or merely came after the gates opened. If someone snuck into Ishgard, regardless of their race, it's very unlikely that they would be taught an art considered to be the holy dragon-slaying ways of the Forefathers. We also have no idea whenÂ that Miqo'te snuck in, so I'm not convinced they're relevant to the point being made in the first place.

Also, no information has been provided on those other miqo'te but pictures. They could be anything as it stands; traders in the area, hired help, hunters, we don't actually know. Ishgard was still closed at that point, so I doubt that they were moving in and out if they weren't part of the culture already.

Culturally-speaking, even if a miqo'te family had been established there for generations, it seems more likely that they would be considered foreigners anyway because they have an appearance that does not match anything else seen in the country.

Lastly, assuming that things Could Be So seems a little shaky, because it opens up all sorts of directions that don't have much grounding; I think this is part of the reason why people are hesitant to accept speculation in general. It Could Be So that people can come from kingdoms not mentioned in the Lore, there's nothing there that states that those places don't exist. It Could Be So that your character could be an Allagan android in the shape of a hyur, the Lore doesn't explicitly state that that's impossible. It Could Be So that your character found and now has use of an Allagan spaceship, they built a moon after all.

So the problem arises that if we think about What Could Be So, we open up a whole boatload of other tangents ranging from the Actually Plausible to the Totally Ridiculous, and then the Lore can get even more messy than it already is. Choosing where the line stops when it comes to assumptions can become practically impossible, and that's just not something that a lot of people are willing to deal with. There's also the problem that anything that can be assumed to be one way, can easily be assumed to be the opposite, which leads us to the current position that we are in now.

I don't raise a fuss over that sort of thing if it comes up in RP, because I'll roll with it with minimal issue on a personal level. But for the sake of organized discussions such as this, where we're trying to forge a deeper understanding of the lore, a distinction regarding when the assumptions start and stop is important, because it forms the basis for further argumentation.

Also, that far east Miqo'te has a standard Eorzean name from the S-tribe. It's likely she's just a trader that does business with Domans, or sailors from that area.

Flashhelix · **09-01-2015, 01:30 AM**

(09-01-2015, 01:24 AM)Valeera Wrote:
(09-01-2015, 01:13 AM)Flashhelix Wrote: To just assume that Ratatoskr's blood, one of the biggest revelations in the HW MSQ, doesn't figure into the job class that are not only considered to be the symbol of Ishgard but also stated to have an "inner dragon" of sorts that is implied to be far more than metaphorical is pretty ridiculous.
You mean like how the entire 30-50 DRG job class story had absolutely zero to do with any dragoon save the formerly one, now two, special snowflakes? And that "inner dragon" stuff is almost exclusively stated in reference to the Azure Dragoon.

And now that I'm thinking about it, did the "Sanguine Dragoon" even use any of the magical abilities in the course of those quests?

Yes, the 30-50 DRG storyline where they tell you plenty of dragoon lore that shouldn't be discounted because you happen to be dealing with the head dragoon. The Azure Dragoon is still a dragoon, it's why he's not just called "The Azure." When he has an ability that no other dragoon can use it's pointed out, as in the case of the Dragonfire Dive.

V'aleera · **09-01-2015, 01:31 AM**

And your explanation for the armored gatewardens in Ishgardian territory, Oli?

(09-01-2015, 01:30 AM)Flashhelix Wrote: Yes, the 30-50 DRG storyline where they tell you plenty of dragoon lore that shouldn't be discounted because you happen to be dealing with the head dragoon.

The only relevant information we get from the 30-50 DRG quests all (or at least the vast majority) relates only to those dragoons who have access to the power of Nidhogg's Eye.

While that is certainly relevant to the general lore, it is not relevant to playing a dragoon in character who is not an Azure Dragoon.

Flashhelix · **09-01-2015, 01:39 AM**

(09-01-2015, 01:31 AM)Valeera Wrote: And your explanation for the armored gatewardens in Ishgardian territory, Oli?

(09-01-2015, 01:30 AM)Flashhelix Wrote: Yes, the 30-50 DRG storyline where they tell you plenty of dragoon lore that shouldn't be discounted because you happen to be dealing with the head dragoon.
The only relevant information we get from the 30-50 DRG quests all (or at least the vast majority) relates only to those dragoons who have access to the power of Nidhogg's Eye.

We're told that the power of Nidhogg's eye empowers the Azure, that it calls Nidhogg to it, and that the power it gives allows the Azure to do things such as the Dragonfire Dive. The specifics of most other dragoon abilities are far too vague to say "Only the Azure Dragoon can do this" simply because the storyline itself focuses on the Azure Dragoon. Not to mention that the soul crystal is something completely different from the Eye that still apparently allows the WoL to manifest an inner dragon, which either means it's something that is not exclusive to the Eye or that somehow the soulstone gained the Eye's power.

V'aleera · **09-01-2015, 01:43 AM**

(09-01-2015, 01:39 AM)Flashhelix Wrote: The specifics of most other dragoon abilities are far too vague to say "Only the Azure Dragoon can do this"

So then your argument is that this gray area is perfectly acceptable to play into, but sparsely represented racial minorities are pushing the boundaries a bit too far?

Lydia Lightfoot · **09-01-2015, 01:51 AM**

I'll share with you all the litmus test I use regarding culture-cism or racism in an MMO setting.

Do the NPCs, in their dialogue with you during quests and so forth, change said dialogue based on the metrics of your toon (besides simple nomenclature things like saying "that hyur" vs "that miqo'te")?

If they don't, then the atmosphere being presented in the game's live environment - irrelevant of not-spoken-by-an-NPC background lore snippets which may contradict it - is one of acceptance and equal opportunity.

Flashhelix · **09-01-2015, 01:52 AM**

(09-01-2015, 01:43 AM)Valeera Wrote:
(09-01-2015, 01:39 AM)Flashhelix Wrote: The specifics of most other dragoon abilities are far too vague to say "Only the Azure Dragoon can do this"
So then your argument is that this gray area is perfectly acceptable to play into, but sparsely represented racial minorities are pushing the boundaries a bit too far?

There is a difference between saying that a dragoon can have an ability mentioned in the context of the Azure Dragoon without anything mentioning that there is anything distinguishing the two besides the Eye and roleplaying a race of dragoon that we have literally never seen before or seen anything to suggest it can exist.

As stated before, people can do what they want, anything is technically "alright" (as there are very few instances where the game outright states X is impossible) but the issue is that many people don't put much effort into selling it, either because they don't want to bother or because they don't realize just how rare the character would be. How many miqo'te are there in the world? They're supposed to be a rare race. Of that rare race, how many would willingly choose to live in Ishgard, a cold region even before the calamity when they absolutely despise the cold? Of those, who has the skills to fell a full-fledged dragon? The implication of a miqo'te dragoon carries a lot more weight than people think, with what we've seen.

Oli! · **09-01-2015, 01:53 AM**

(09-01-2015, 01:31 AM)V Wrote: And your explanation for the armored gatewardens in Ishgardian territory, Oli?

Any explanation for or against is speculation. Saying that they're integrated into Ishgardian society because they're a gatewarden is speculation. Saying that they're not and could be hired help or contracted or otherwise is also speculation.

Neither speculation is more valid than the other, so no one has an explanation for it.

V'aleera · **09-01-2015, 01:53 AM**

That's an interesting point, actually, and one that was touched on by another poster in an older version of this argument. The vast majority of Ishgardian NPCs you can speak to (especially in the ARR areas) will refer to you in a condescending manner. But they do not do this by citing your race, but rather by calling you either an "outsider", or in less common cases, "unbeliever".

(09-01-2015, 01:53 AM)Oli! Wrote: Any explanation for or against is speculation. Saying that they're integrated into Ishgardian society because they're a gatewarden is speculation. Saying that they're not and could be hired help or contracted or otherwise is also speculation.

Neither speculation is more valid than the other, so no one has an explanation for it.

I'm sorry, this is really rather silly. You're arguing that Ishgardians, long before their much more troubled times post Calamity, hired outsiders to guard almost all of Coerthas Western Highlands?

You're welcome to speculate that is the case, but you don't have any ground to stand on claiming that speculation is as equally supported as speculation that Ishgardian soldiers are guarding Ishgardian territory.

If I claim the belief that K'leytai is really just a shapeshifted dragon playing the long con, is that just as valid speculation too?

Flashhelix · **09-01-2015, 01:58 AM**

(09-01-2015, 01:53 AM)Valeera Wrote: That's an interesting point, actually, and one that was touched on by another poster in an older version of this argument. The vast majority of Ishgardian NPCs you can speak to (especially in the ARR areas) will refer to you in a condescending manner. But they do not do this by citing your race, but rather by calling you either an "outsider", or in less common cases, "unbeliever".

Right, it's xenophobia rather than racism.

(09-01-2015, 01:53 AM)Valeera Wrote: That's an interesting point, actually, and one that was touched on by another poster in an older version of this argument. The vast majority of Ishgardian NPCs you can speak to (especially in the ARR areas) will refer to you in a condescending manner. But they do not do this by citing your race, but rather by calling you either an "outsider", or in less common cases, "unbeliever".

(09-01-2015, 01:53 AM)Oli! Wrote: Any explanation for or against is speculation. Saying that they're integrated into Ishgardian society because they're a gatewarden is speculation. Saying that they're not and could be hired help or contracted or otherwise is also speculation.

Neither speculation is more valid than the other, so no one has an explanation for it.
I'm sorry, this is really rather silly. You're arguing that Ishgardians, long before their much more troubled times post Calamity, hired outsiders to guard almost all of Coerthas Western Highlands?

You're welcome to speculate that is the case, but you don't have any ground to stand on claiming that speculation is as equally supported as speculation that Ishgardian soldiers are guarding Ishgardian territory.

I'd say that "Ishgardian hired outsiders" and "Miqo'te Ishgardians" both have zero in-game details to support them, so they're equal in that respect.

Oli! · **09-01-2015, 01:59 AM**

(09-01-2015, 01:53 AM)V Wrote: That's an interesting point, actually, and one that was touched on by another poster in an older version of this argument. The vast majority of Ishgardian NPCs you can speak to (especially in the ARR areas) will refer to you in a condescending manner. But they do not do this by citing your race, but rather by calling you either an "outsider", or in less common cases, "unbeliever".

(09-01-2015, 01:53 AM)Oli! Wrote: Any explanation for or against is speculation. Saying that they're integrated into Ishgardian society because they're a gatewarden is speculation. Saying that they're not and could be hired help or contracted or otherwise is also speculation.

Neither speculation is more valid than the other, so no one has an explanation for it.
I'm sorry, this is really rather silly. You're arguing that Ishgardians, long before their much more troubled times post Calamity, hired outsiders to guard almost all of Coerthas Western Highlands?

You're welcome to speculate that is the case, but you don't have any ground to stand on claiming that speculation is as equally supported as speculation that Ishgardian soldiers are guarding Ishgardian territory.

Perhaps I'm confused; how many gate guards that fit the bill are there? I thought we were talking about the picture of just the one.

Lydia Lightfoot · **09-01-2015, 02:00 AM**

(09-01-2015, 01:58 AM)Flashhelix Wrote:
(09-01-2015, 01:53 AM)V Wrote: That's an interesting point, actually, and one that was touched on by another poster in an older version of this argument. The vast majority of Ishgardian NPCs you can speak to (especially in the ARR areas) will refer to you in a condescending manner. But they do not do this by citing your race, but rather by calling you either an "outsider", or in less common cases, "unbeliever".

Right, it's xenophobia rather than racism.

Which returns to the issue of whether or not things like being a dragoon should be limited to specific races, when the evidence in the game based on NPC treatment suggests that as long as the player has a plausible reason for their character to be a respected resident of Ishgard (not an outsider, in other words), their race shouldn't matter at all.

Oli! · **09-01-2015, 02:00 AM**

(09-01-2015, 01:53 AM)V Wrote: If I claim the belief that K'leytai is really just a shapeshifted dragon playing the long con, is that just as valid speculation too?

Well, yes, if you're speculating openly, it is.

That's the danger of speculation that I was pointing out earlier on.

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