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Valan · **03-21-2013, 04:44 PM**

all my characters are from lower class. everybody survive with some daily levequests

Manari · **03-21-2013, 05:38 PM**

If there was an option below Lower Class, I would choose that for Manari. She's never been able to make much gil since she lost her tribe. Even while working in Everwatch, Oskar never paid her much and she could barely afford inn rooms. Ever since the end of 1.0 she had to start living out in the Twelveswood, sleeping out there alone. She grew up a trained tracker and huntress, so hunting for her own food is second nature anyway. She never had to be the one who worried about gil or trade with those outside the tribe, so money just isn't something she's used to worrying about. She knows how to survive without it, and to her, that's easier than figuring out how to actually earn it.

Towards the end of 1.0 was the first time she ever felt ashamed of her financial situation, she had just never thought about it before. And at the start of ARR, she will have much more important things to focus on than money. Although she will have found a way to find some, if she decides to let her morals slip a bit.

Dreke Lamorte · **03-21-2013, 09:55 PM**

(03-21-2013, 05:38 PM)Manari Wrote: If there was an option below Lower Class, I would choose that for Manari. Â She's never been able to make much gil since she lost her tribe. Â Even while working in Everwatch, Oskar never paid her much and she could barely afford inn rooms. Â Ever since the end of 1.0 she had to start living out in the Twelveswood, sleeping out there alone. She grew up a trained tracker and huntress, so hunting for her own food is second nature anyway. Â She never had to be the one who worried about gil or trade with those outside the tribe, so money just isn't something she's used to worrying about. Â She knows how to survive without it, and to her, that's easier than figuring out how to actually earn it. Â

Towards the end of 1.0 was the first time she ever felt ashamed of her financial situation, she had just never thought about it before. Â And at the start of ARR, she will have much more important things to focus on than money. Â Although she will have found a way to find some, if she decides to let her morals slip a bit.

That's interesting. I had a character who lived in the twelveswood for a time as well. Occasionally he would have to fend off or avoid others who, convinced that he was a wildling, would track/attack him, or flee from him.

Do you have similar scenarios in your characters history, or did you explain that away somehow?

((Sorry to derail the thread Tongue

Â )

Lilszee · **03-22-2013, 05:54 PM**

I don't think wealth classes are an appropriate measure of -anything- in a pre-industrial city-state based society. Most people here are putting lower class because they aren't begging, but they aren't particularly pained for money either. Well, in our current society, that would be considered middle class. In a pre-industrial society, that means you're affluent and have stable, well paying work that isn't manual labor. Realize, the lower class is defined -- at least in our and most societies throughout history -- as either serfs, slaves, or those who struggle and toil just to make due and could greatly need assistance.

In a rich, frontier like world like Haiderin -- at least most likely -- and Eorzea specifically, we all qualify, almost inherently, as mercenaries, adventures, gathers, or craftsmen.

If you're a Thaumaturge or Conjurer, you're educated and powerful. If you're a gladiator, lancer (and possiblyÂ marauder) you're trained and have a way of maintaining your equipment. Trained soldiers were -not- part of the lower class in history. Military men are generally paid well or have a tangible service to sell, keeping them firmly in at least a middle class. Pugilists, archers, andÂ marauder can be a bit different depending on a few things, like being bandits, but bandits aren't really part of a class system, are they? We don't really have to go over craftsmen and gatherers, do we?

I think it would be more apt to ask on degrees of wealth at the start. Class is lifestyle, it's made of your residence, your job, and your future outlooks, and it requires a society based around class, whereas, at least in 1.0 and Gridinia, most places seem to be a heavily socialized, union based society that would mitigate most ideas of class altogether.

So where would I put my character? Well, Winter Dawn -- assuming the name isn't taken, in which case I'll have to be more creative -- will likely be affluent seeing as the aim is to be a learned arcanist and weaver and is capable of taking care of herself in the wilderness.

tl;dr:Â I (pretentiously) explain why (I think) class is a poor descriptor and doesn't make sense in Eorzea. (IMO) Instead, (I believe) we should be more concerned about how to integrate ourselves into the world economically in a reasonable fashion.

Moogle

Of course, your character can always just be dreadful with money and gambles/spends it away.

Varus · **03-22-2013, 06:05 PM**

That last sentence explains Tyonis' current living conditions.

Deirdre · **03-22-2013, 07:08 PM**

(03-22-2013, 05:54 PM)Lilszee Wrote: I don't think wealth classes are an appropriate measure of -anything- in a pre-industrial city-state based society. Most people here are putting lower class because they aren't begging, but they aren't particularly pained for money either. Well, in our current society, that would be considered middle class. In a pre-industrial society, that means you're affluent and have stable, well paying work that isn't manual labor. Realize, the lower class is defined -- at least in our and most societies throughout history -- as either serfs, slaves, or those who struggle and toil just to make due and could greatly need assistance.

In a rich, frontier like world like Haiderin -- at least most likely -- and Eorzea specifically, we all qualify, almost inherently, as mercenaries, adventures, gathers, or craftsmen.

If you're a Thaumaturge or Conjurer, you're educated and powerful. If you're a gladiator, lancer (and possiblyÂ marauder) you're trained and have a way of maintaining your equipment. Trained soldiers were -not- part of the lower class in history. Military men are generally paid well or have a tangible service to sell, keeping them firmly in at least a middle class. Pugilists, archers, andÂ marauder can be a bit different depending on a few things, like being bandits, but bandits aren't really part of a class system, are they? We don't really have to go over craftsmen and gatherers, do we?

I think it would be more apt to ask on degrees of wealth at the start. Class is lifestyle, it's made of your residence, your job, and your future outlooks, and it requires a society based around class, whereas, at least in 1.0 and Gridinia, most places seem to be a heavily socialized, union based society that would mitigate most ideas of class altogether.

So where would I put my character? Well, Winter Dawn -- assuming the name isn't taken, in which case I'll have to be more creative -- will likely be affluent seeing as the aim is to be a learned arcanist and weaver and is capable of taking care of herself in the wilderness.

tl;dr:Â I (pretentiously) explain why (I think) class is a poor descriptor and doesn't make sense in Eorzea. (IMO) Instead, (I believe) we should be more concerned about how to integrate ourselves into the world economically in a reasonable fashion.

Of course, your character can always just be dreadful with money and gambles/spends it away.

(Not to derail the thread...but-)

1st thing, Haiderin -> Hydaelyn. It's on the top of the website.

While I would agree you're correct on certain points, the guilds themselves and the world of Hydaelyn is different than a per-industrial world we know. You are equating player characters more with regular citizens, but the extreme percentage of us are playing characters as 'adventurers' who are regarded as the lowest class and expendable, almost akin to a slave. So that's not a great starting point, even with wealth, family or legacy behind you.

Those characters in the military- in the focus of the Grand Companies, and not military forces like The Brass Blades or The Stone Torches- get paid in seals and not gil. Seals are only valuable to redeem for equipment, basically to prolong your life in the field and not for padding your pockets.
The Yellow Jackets, The Brass Blades, The Stone Torches, The Wood Wailers and all the rest of the personal forces (police/military forces) are more equivalent to your description of a military, and I do not believe many characters are actually in those forces.

Conjurers and Thaumaturges are not necessarily educated and powerful either, barely more learned than the marauder swinging the axe. In Gridania, perhaps, hearing the whispers of the elementals like conjurers are apt to do, you would receive more respect. Conjurers can be poor like the rest of us if they can't find work, or believe in things not necessarily accepted by others, and therefore cast out. Education is really a perception, you could be book smart or field smart, but because you know one does not mean you are necessarily educated.

Class is a lifestyle,my character for example makes gil on jobs she can, but she does not spend that gil, instead sending it to another family. If she needs food she hunts and cooks herself, costing her no gil. If she needs equipment, perhaps then she would spend any small amount she can make for that purpose, or do a favour for a friend who could provide her with the gear in exchange for a service. In that case, spending no gil. Deirdre could be wandering around for moons without any gil in her pocket, and be just fine.
Yes, she is a lower class of society because of her decisions, and because of her end of the year total income.

Basically the point I am getting at is the use of 'class' in this case is merely a broad term for the various lifestyles of the characters being played. This thread really has no place getting in to social vs wealth classes, it's just for fun and to get a measure of what the RP community is doing, without really dwelling on the specifics.

Cactuar

Dreke Lamorte · **03-22-2013, 07:53 PM**

(03-22-2013, 07:08 PM)Deirdre Wrote: Basically the point I am getting at is the use of 'class' in this case is merely a broad term for the various lifestyles of the characters being played. This thread really has no place getting in to social vs wealth classes, it's just for fun and to get a measure of what the RP community is doing, without really dwelling on the specifics.

This.

Upper-class could be an aristocratic in general, a well-off merchant-trader, a hoarded, scrupulous mercenaries, nobles' employees could be. This is true for all classes, and is quite valuable for player-player interactions, NPC-world to character understanding, and a way to associate a characters upbringing and world-view in line with a player perspective.

There are multiple descriptors with-in, of course. This is the place to elaborate on your characters specifically.

I agree with Deir. And you do make some valid points Lilszee.

However, I don't liken Eorzea to a pre-industrial Earth, because that means that everyone is playing ancient cultures from our history, and that's not even close to an approriate description of the state of things in a sci-fi/fantasy setting.

As players, obviously we can attribute references that were drawn upon to influence specific creations in a fictional setting, but we're only human. We have to. I still maintain, however, that does not imply parallels to our history.

Edit: I want to point out that I put Nakil's class as lower for a very specific reason. He's broke. He has to Samurai Champloo it up when he needs something, but that does not imply that he is of a similar mind as Jin or Mugen. The point being, he wouldn't even technically be middle-class, even considering he survives without having to beg, but he does have to deal with things as they come up. Immediately. He takes a job, he works for someone, he hunts, he steals (technically the same as the former to him), whatever he needs to do, to meet the end.

Asyria · **03-23-2013, 08:55 AM**

Azy is working-class, her wealth will be what she's got in-game.

(03-21-2013, 04:44 PM)Valan Wrote: all my characters are from lover class. everybody survive with some daily levequests

I lol'd.

Valan · **03-23-2013, 09:04 AM**

(03-23-2013, 08:55 AM)Asyria Wrote: Azy is working-class, her wealth will be what she's got in-game.

(03-21-2013, 04:44 PM)Valan Wrote: all my characters are from lover class. everybody survive with some daily levequests

I lol'd.

fixed.

Damn ipad Dodgy

Manari · **03-23-2013, 10:00 AM**

(03-21-2013, 09:55 PM)Dreke Lamorte Wrote: That's interesting. I had a character who lived in the twelveswood for a time as well. Occasionally he would have to fend off or avoid others who, convinced that he was a wildling, would track/attack him, or flee from him.

Do you have similar scenarios in your characters history, or did you explain that away somehow?

((Sorry to derail the thread Â )

No one has ever mistaken Manari for a wildkin because she's a Keeper of the Moon who is native to the Twelveswood. She grew up in a tribe that has lived in the Twelveswood almost ever since the Miqo'te came to Eorzea. So people would probably assume she was a poacher long before they would assume she was a Wildkin. Her tribe was very strict about making sure they coexisted with the rest of the life in the woods. They were taught to respect the Twelveswood and to give and take from the woods. So she never does anything that would earn her any woodsin.

Lilszee · **03-23-2013, 12:46 PM**

(03-22-2013, 07:08 PM)DeirdreÂ (Not to derail the thread...but-) Wrote: You are equating player characters more with regular citizens, but the extreme percentage of us are playing characters as 'adventurers' who are regarded as the lowest class and expendable, almost akin to a slave. So that's not a great starting point, even with wealth, family or legacy behind you.

Some people are certainly going to be normal citizens within RP, but I also extensively mentioned where they weren't. And I think it's incredibly weird you'd try to equate adventurers with slave. Like, that's not only bizarrelyÂ wrong, that's pretty offensive on top of it.

Slaves are people without power, agency, who don't receive pay, and more importantly, who are horribly oppressed. Equating adventurers -- people who slay monsters, do odd jobs, and otherwise act as mercenaries -- to slaves is just... incomprehensible tbh.

There are tons of implications around that show the company taking care of you as a member. I think trying to imply that they don't is really backwards and odd too. If they're gearing you up, they're feeding you and helping you with lodgings.

My overall issue with using class is it becomes entirely meaningless to use it in this context. It would be better, much better, to describe their situation and leave it at that. Trying to put them into specific, studied socioeconomic categories that they plainly do not fit in -- half the people with lower class characters so far -- in a society that doesn't parallel our own where class doesn't seem to have a real concept in it can only generate confusion.

Also, irony for telling people not to dwell on specifics and then correcting someone as your very first point. ^5

(Though, I really think not paying to specifics of a setting just leads to more confusion later down the line to begin with, so thanks for the correction, I was using a really old term I heard around the alpha of 1.0 and it stuck with me.)

(03-22-2013, 07:53 PM)Dreke Lamorte This. Wrote: Upper-class could be an aristocratic in general, a well-off merchant-trader, a hoarded, scrupulous mercenaries, nobles' employees could be. This is true for all classes, and is quite valuable for player-player interactions, NPC-world to character understanding, and a way to associate a characters upbringing and world-view in line with a player perspective.

...

However, I don't liken Eorzea to a pre-industrial Earth, because that means that everyone is playing ancient cultures from our history, and that's not even close to an approriate description of the state of things in a sci-fi/fantasy setting.

Upperclass is very easy to define, and that's probably why you went to that definition for it. The owners of production are almost always going to be upperclass by virtue of, well, everything, but the sheer involvements of guilds would be likened more to a monopolistic union. I think it's a highlyÂ important part for learning about everyone's roles in the world. You know. So they can actually play.

I find it weird, and very odd, that you reject the idea of Eorzea being pre-industrial because it doesn't parallel our own culture while in a thread that uses an inherent part of our culture -- you know, class hierarchy.

Anyways, Eorzea, or at least everyone but the Garleanininings, are most definitely pre-industrial. There's very little machinery to think of. There's no factories. It's, by definition, pre-industrial. The Garlean Empire is most definitely industrial. That's sort of a huge point about their military might, what with all their mechanized infantry.

The Garlean Empire even uses a parallel of a nuclear bomb.

Aysun · **03-23-2013, 01:29 PM**

I also disagree with the adventurers=slaves thing. While we're certainly looked down upon by NPCs it is mostly due to it being suggested that most adventurers are "foreign" to the cities in some way. Grew up outside them, in other words. Outsiders who will do annoying errands for gil and outsiders who want/need to prove themselves.Â

I guess the overall point is this is a survey for a census, so everyone describing their character's wealth status would make that ridiculously hard. XD Separating it into classes that we're familiar with makes it a lot easier to gather data on where RPers are placing their characters monetarily. He could have also just said "Wealthy, Comfortable, Struggling, Dirt-Poor" or something.

Lilszee · **03-23-2013, 01:35 PM**

I actually think a better solution would have been based on a question like "How affluent is your character?"

It gives far more options too.

Very affluent for those rich bastards.
Quite affluent for those very well off.
Somewhat Affluent for those that have more than enough wealth to meet their needs and afford pretty much whatever with some planning.
Not very affluent to those who live -maybe- have a permanent residence.
Not at all affluent to those who lack pretty much any semblance of money whatsoever.

And as a bonus:

In debt.

It's more specific and much more useful information, I'd think.

Kylin · **03-23-2013, 01:49 PM**

The semantics aren't really important for a poll like this. It's not as if our characters are ICly voting themselves. Everyone knows what the terms refer to, and that's all that really matters.

Also, having played the game since its first pre-launch, I can say with certainty that there are plenty of references to the class system in general (especially in Ul'dah). There are nobles, poor, and those in between. The terms used OOCly to define those categories aren't really that relevant in this situation. Especially not for an activity that is meant to be fun, give insight to where the RP community leans, and gives people a chance to write a little bit about their character's aspects that they may otherwise seldom get a chance to talk about (in this case, their character's wealth) Smile

So let's please not nitpick the little stuff and just enjoy the character descriptions and poll results ^^;

Deirdre · **03-23-2013, 02:11 PM**

(03-23-2013, 12:46 PM)Lilszee Wrote:
(03-22-2013, 07:08 PM)DeirdreÂ (Not to derail the thread...but-) Wrote: You are equating player characters more with regular citizens, but the extreme percentage of us are playing characters as 'adventurers' who are regarded as the lowest class and expendable, almost akin to a slave. So that's not a great starting point, even with wealth, family or legacy behind you.

Some people are certainly going to be normal citizens within RP, but I also extensively mentioned where they weren't. And I think it's incredibly weird you'd try to equate adventurers with slave. Like, that's not only bizarrelyÂ wrong, that's pretty offensive on top of it.

Slaves are people without power, agency, who don't receive pay, and more importantly, who are horribly oppressed. Equating adventurers -- people who slay monsters, do odd jobs, and otherwise act as mercenaries -- to slaves is just... incomprehensible tbh.

If you re-read my post, I'm not making specifics. Of course there are going to be characters who are not adventurers. But, the fact is, I've roleplayed all through 1.0 and I know a good portion of the RPers and their characters. ALMOST all of them are adventurers.

My example of slave v adventurers is again, a broad example, and not to equate on specifics. It came from the very fact that adventurers are expendable, and the game NPC's will even tell you that. There are some who actually sneer at you because you are an adventurer.
I'm equating a slaves social position, at the bottom of the food chain and easily replaceable as well as doing all the dirty work, as alike an adventurer.
As Aysun pointed out yeah, there is the total ability to move up the food chain and change the view of the people saying those things.

As an aside to your point about Grand Companies, they DO NOT lodge or feed their adventurers, and would balk at the idea. The only place that does this, which is not really affiliated with the Grand Companies, is the Adventurers Guild. Even then, you have to work really hard before getting access to a room with merely a bed, and they defiantly will not feed you.

Eorzean culture, while having small pieces of our own (obviously), is it's own. We're using terms to be able to relate to it, and broaden our ideas of social status, which exists in Hydaelyn. While you can compare certain things like machinery and what-not to per-industrial eras, it's not the same. Their industrial stages could have gone completely different from ours (and did because well, we didn't come across giant ancient technology and use it to our advantage).

I corrected you because of the blatantly obvious correct spelling all over the website. I'm not trying to get in specifics here, but I personally like my Eorzean related words spelled correctly.

In agreeance with Kylin, and as I was trying to get to all along, semantics. Vote in the poll or don't, but don't to come in here saying things about Eorzean culture that aren't really correct.

Poll: At his/her most stable economic point entering ARR, how wealthy is your character? You do not have permission to vote in this poll.
Upper-class	15.07%	11	15.07%
Middle-class	42.47%	31	42.47%
Lower-class	42.47%	31	42.47%
Total		73 vote(s)	100%

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