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ChaosMAJORA · **11-17-2015, 01:52 PM**

(11-17-2015, 01:28 PM)Kage Wrote: [youtube]CS--izSnbNk[/youtube]

"Thal's Bloody Balls"

Would you agree that for some people 'bloody' would have been seen as something that is a colloquial term (RL inserted into Eorzea) and probably would have continued to see it as that way until it was seen by a player in-game or at FanFest?

Having seen the phrase - and derivations of the phrase - used by NPCs in-game, I'd wholeheartedly agree with its use IC.

That said, as stated above, I acknowledge that language IC evolving in a real-time way is something that I believe is natural progression in any constructed reality. Ergo: I agree with you on two counts - why wouldn't it have come into use? You can surely explain it away ICly, after all.

Kage · **11-17-2015, 02:08 PM**

(11-17-2015, 01:52 PM)ChaosMAJORA Wrote:
(11-17-2015, 01:28 PM)Kage Wrote: [youtube]CS--izSnbNk[/youtube]

"Thal's Bloody Balls"

Would you agree that for some people 'bloody' would have been seen as something that is a colloquial term (RL inserted into Eorzea) and probably would have continued to see it as that way until it was seen by a player in-game or at FanFest?

Having seen the phrase - and derivations of the phrase - used by NPCs in-game, I'd wholeheartedly agree with its use IC.

That said, as stated above, I acknowledge that language IC evolving in a real-time way is something that I believe is natural progression in any constructed reality. Ergo: I agree with you on two counts - why wouldn't it have come into use? You can surely explain it away ICly, after all.

As I said, and from what I am assuming from my understanding of your statement, you would have continued to see it as "out of place" if it was not for the presence of it in-game. Yes? I am sure many others would say the same thing.

So then my question is, what is actually considered to be "real world" slurs that break immersion? Is it retard?

Is fuck actually one or is it just in our minds? There are ones like "oh shite" or "bugger off!" that can take its place but could the absence of fuck be explained by the TEEN RATING? If ESRB rating is anything similar to the ratings of movies, you can only keep the PG-13 rating with only a certain number of usages of the word and especially as long as they are not 'sexual' in nature...

This thread is not the only time we've talked about it. Either common uses or which ones people use. Some people do say it breaks immersion but then, again, my question is exactly what words are breaking your immersion and why? Is it because we use them often -now-?

And at what 'point' will certain slurs be deemed acceptable to not break immersion. Are we only restricted to the ones in game?

McBeefâ„¢ · **11-17-2015, 02:47 PM**

(11-17-2015, 02:08 PM)Kage Wrote: If ESRB rating is anything similar to the ratings of movies, you can only keep the PG-13 rating with only a certain number of usages of the word and especially as long as they are not 'sexual' in nature...

Interestingly enough FFXIV has the 'Sexual themes' tagged onto the Teen rating, which is rather rare.Â

Even TERA, a game with people fighting monsters in fetish pornography outfits only has 'Suggestive themes'.

There is a reason FFXIV can have whores explicitly in the game, or have a leve reference making rings for erotic body piercings.

McBeefâ„¢ · **11-17-2015, 02:50 PM**

Huh I'm looking at the ESRB and I can't find another major MMO that has 'Sexual Themes'.Â

So next time you complain about people being naughty in the quicksand, remember, people bought a box that said 'Sexual Themes'.

Might as well give people what they paid for Wink

Edit: The Elder Scrolls Online has it.

Aysun · **11-17-2015, 03:00 PM**

Used to bother me to see the f-bomb IC. I preferred people who tried to be creative and come up with swears similar to those the NPCs used (whoresons, Thal's balls, Matron's teat [tit? can't remember], Seven Hells! etc). I still prefer when people use shite or bloody over the more real-world swears, but it doesn't bother me anymore to see the latter used.

For the record, the NPCs have given us a word to use instead of fuck.

[Image: tumblr_nswc2xHnCY1rquw0uo1_1280.png]

[Image: tumblr_nswc2xHnCY1rquw0uo1_1280.png]

swive
swÄ«v/
verbarchaichumorous

have sexual intercourse with.

Avira · **11-17-2015, 03:03 PM**

There really was no complaining. I am not sure why some would believe this now. It is nothing but a small debate and I desire to see other's opinion about it. So I truly fail to understand why some posters speak of complaining.

**Unnamed Mercenary** · **11-17-2015, 03:05 PM**

(11-17-2015, 03:00 PM)Aysun Wrote: Used to bother me to see the f-bomb IC. I preferred people who tried to be creative and come up with swears similar to those the NPCs used (whoresons, Thal's balls, Matron's teat [tit? can't remember], Seven Hells! etc). I still prefer when people use shite or bloody over the more real-world swears, but it doesn't bother me anymore to see the latter used.

For the record, the NPCs have given us a word to use instead of fuck.

swive
swÄ«v/
verbarchaichumorous

have sexual intercourse with.

They also use "rut" and "bugger", depending on context. "Rut" is used for sex. "Bugger" is profanity.

Swiv.....I've only seen the Limsan NPCs use though. Context could make it weird if two fancy Ishgardian men are in an argument and one of them outs "piratespeak".

Aysun · **11-17-2015, 03:09 PM**

(11-17-2015, 03:05 PM)Unnamed Mercenary Wrote:
(11-17-2015, 03:00 PM)Aysun Wrote: Used to bother me to see the f-bomb IC. I preferred people who tried to be creative and come up with swears similar to those the NPCs used (whoresons, Thal's balls, Matron's teat [tit? can't remember], Seven Hells! etc). I still prefer when people use shite or bloody over the more real-world swears, but it doesn't bother me anymore to see the latter used.

For the record, the NPCs have given us a word to use instead of fuck.

swive
swÄ«v/
verbarchaichumorous

have sexual intercourse with.

They also use "rut" and "bugger", depending on context. "Rut" is used for sex. "Bugger" is profanity.

Swiv.....I've only seen the Limsan NPCs use though. Context could make it weird if two fancy Ishgardian men are in an argument and one of them outs "piratespeak".

Weeeell considering Estinien was the one who said it there, we could think of it more as just an extremely foul thing to say (as 'fuck' is) that any Eorzean would use, not just pirates. Pirates of course, speak dirtier than most, and would of course use it more frequently! Big Grin

Paradox · **11-17-2015, 03:10 PM**

Oli's grasp of languages surpasses mine, both due to his study on it most likely (My study of languages is only cursory at best, I'm more of a prehistoric history and mythology guy), and because my failing memory has let a lot of details slip through my fingers. So my hat's off to him in that regard. But there's something here that has a greater point in it all. A lot of us aren't language majors, or history majors. We don't know a lot of the Olde English terms or words, and the game itself leans towards a lot of that. Sure, we could do the research and try our best to adapt it. And for those of us used to writing in more modern terms, having to remember to write in terms or words specific to a setting can often be difficult on a 24/7 basis. I don't write characters with accents much because having to forget my g or h on something like 'hanging' to write it 'hangin' or 'angin'Â is hard because..well. I'm a spelling whore, and I spell without thinking, using the proper spelling of the word, and often slip up on accented speech because of it. The same can be said of words from the setting. Sometimes we just forget to use them because they don't come immediately to mind, and only a few in the community use them. Hell, I still have problems substituting 'anyroad' for 'anyway' or 'anywho' because only a smattering of people do it that I've observed.

On the greater topic, to me, the usage of words like 'Fuck' isn't immersion-breaking because it's a word that I, in my modern language immersion, can recognize and adapt to immediately, making a response easier to formulate. Is it out of place in Eorzea? We don't know. As it was said, we haven't a comprehensive Eorzean dictionary or thesaurus in either common terms or slang. Hell, we have a dragon dictionary more comprehensive than an Eorzean one. We have 'shite', which is exactly what it says on the tin. That one's not hard to figure out, and easier to deal with. Just add an 'e'. Honestly the way I see it, just use what you're comfortable with in your own language but keep context in mind. I'd say not to avoid curses as they're known in modern sense, but their usage in context. We naturally don't have phrases in Eorzea like 'get your shit together', as to my knowledge that's way more modern and would make a lot less sense in context. But calling someone a shit-head or a shite-head is just peachy the way I see it.

Usage and structure is really more important than what words you use (well, in my view anyway), at least until we get a proper Eorzean language primer. But that's just how I feel. I don't nitpick about people's language usage, even if it seems a little too modern. I'm more interested in fun RP, and nitpicking over a few words kind of interrupts my immersion way more than words themselves would. But to each their own~. As far as the word cunt goes, it is exceptionally old, and I think it has its merit as a descriptive, more lewd 'sailor swearin' term for lady-bits in the RP sense rather than the insult it's used as today. Again, context. Since Eorzea as we see it is more Olde English, go with that and see what you can find. And hey, there are a LOT of descriptors not only for both sets of genitalia used throughout history, but other things as well. Terms and slang were a lot different back then. So if you think something sounds more Eorzean, do the research, find some terms, and then have a party.

Sidenote: Still waiting to see someone reach into the Dragon Age box and utter 'Menphina's Knickerweasels!'. Just sayin.

Edit: People posted before I was finished aaaah. D: So reply pre-dates the whole 'swiv' thing. xD Reminds me so much of swimming.

Kage · **11-17-2015, 03:24 PM**

From what I can tell (in a very very cursory glance), 'shite' is actually a modern maybe early modern English variant for 'shit' in British English or Irish English.

Take Wikipedia with a grain of salt if you're so inclined.

Old English: scite (dung) and scitte (diarrhoea), and the verb scÄ«tan (to defecate, attested only in bescÄ«tan, to cover with excrement)

Middle English: schÄ«tte (excrement), schyt (diarrhoea) and shiten (to defecate)

So what is it that we consider "modern or real world"? What separates that from those that are considered Eorzean appropriate? Why is 'shite' or 'bloody' lesser real world? As far as I know, they're used in modern speech quite often. We see it in game. That's why we accept it. But I already posed why fuck wouldn't be used quite often in the game.

Would you consider "Uh... I think I'll pass..." out of place?

Aysun · **11-17-2015, 03:42 PM**

(11-17-2015, 03:24 PM)Kage Wrote: From what I can tell (in a very very cursory glance), 'shite' is actually a modern maybe early modern English variant for 'shit' in British English or Irish English.

Take Wikipedia with a grain of salt if you're so inclined.

Old English: scite (dung) and scitte (diarrhoea), and the verb scÄ«tan (to defecate, attested only in bescÄ«tan, to cover with excrement)

Middle English: schÄ«tte (excrement), schyt (diarrhoea) and shiten (to defecate)

So what is it that we consider "modern or real world"? What separates that from those that are considered Eorzean appropriate? Why is 'shite' or 'bloody' lesser real world? As far as I know, they're used in modern speech quite often. We see it in game. That's why we accept it. But I already posed why fuck wouldn't be used quite often in the game.

Would you consider "Uh... I think I'll pass..." out of place?

Like I said, I prefer to see what is used by the NPCs be used by RPers. They seem to use archaic words AND modern British(loosely)-style stuff.

Oli! · **11-17-2015, 04:15 PM**

(11-17-2015, 03:00 PM)Aysun Wrote: Used to bother me to see the f-bomb IC. I preferred people who tried to be creative and come up with swears similar to those the NPCs used (whoresons, Thal's balls, Matron's teat [tit? can't remember], Seven Hells! etc). I still prefer when people use shite or bloody over the more real-world swears, but it doesn't bother me anymore to see the latter used.

For the record, the NPCs have given us a word to use instead of fuck.

swive
swÄ«v/
verbarchaichumorous

have sexual intercourse with.

It's worth noting that Swive is contemporary with Fuck. The 1907Â Slang and Its Analogues, Past and Present, Volume 7Â has the earliest citation of Swive (on page 52) being 1383, which roughly lines up with what we found out about Fuck earlier. If we go back to the idea of what we type being turned into "Eorzean" when we press enter, then Fuck and Swive either end up being the same word, or two contemporary words that mean the same thing, so it really comes down to personal flavoring; although one could make the argument that since one appears in the game and the other doesn't, then that one has more of a backing, the argument that the reason why the other does not appear is because it is still considered in poor taste in current society could also be made.

It's interesting to note that by the timeÂ Slang and Its Analogues, Past and Present, Volume 3Â is published in 1893, we already have (from pages 80 to 81) "Fuck," "Fuckable," "Fucker," "Fuck-finger," "Fuck-fist," "Fuck-hole," "Fucking," (with the oldest citation being 1568, curiously), "Fuckish," "Fuckster," and "Fuckstress." I'm sure that's plenty more about that word than anyone really wanted to know.

(11-17-2015, 03:24 PM)Â Kage Wrote: From what I can tell (in a very very cursory glance), 'shite' is actually a modern maybe early modern English variant for 'shit' in British English or Irish English.

Take Wikipedia with a grain of salt if you're so inclined.

Old English: scite (dung) and scitte (diarrhoea), and the verb scÄ«tan (to defecate, attested only in bescÄ«tan, to cover with excrement)

Middle English: schÄ«tte (excrement), schyt (diarrhoea) and shiten (to defecate)

So what is it that we consider "modern or real world"? What separates that from those that are considered Eorzean appropriate? Why is 'shite' or 'bloody' lesser real world? As far as I know, they're used in modern speech quite often. We see it in game. That's why we accept it. But I already posed why fuck wouldn't be used quite often in the game.

Would you consider "Uh... I think I'll pass..." out of place?

If they mean actualÂ Early-Modern English, that's still pretty dated, as that variation of English was in practice from roughly the 1400s to the 1600s, which would still place it as being Really Old.

In a university research project over the summer, myself and about seven or eight other people worked towards making a program that found and corrected missing letters or variant EME spellings, and perhaps surprisingly, out of the thousands of words from various texts that we went through daily for 40 days, not once did we come across "fuck," "swive," or "shit."

Since we already know that those words existed during that time, even in print, it's likely that they were still seen as relatively obscene in that time, since they weren't being printed all over the place. Of course, this example is anecdotal in terms of presentation, but there doesn't seem to be an abundance of citations for use of these words anywhere else either.

Faye · **11-17-2015, 04:15 PM**

As Oli already pointed out, most profanity are pretty old words. They are not at all "modern" as you've implied, so for me, it doesn't take from my immersion. The reason "bloody hell" and "swiving" sound like ye olde fantasy profanity is because you don't hear them very often in real life these days--especially if you're in North America--but hearing "fuck" and "whore" out in the real world is not uncommon.

There seems to be some misconception that modern profanity is not widely used in medieval or fantasy settings. But I'd credit that to the fact we are, obviously, only exposed to medieval and fantasy settings through different media (be it books, TV, movies, games, etc.). Media is highly censored and has to meet certain rating guidelines--and the more explicit the rating of your content, the more you've narrowed your audience/customers. "Fucking" is going to bump up your rating to a higher age limit (and can't even be aired on cable TV). "Swiving" is not. So a lot of fantasy media, like all media in general, is going to shy away from heavy profanity, and will try to find period-appropriate sounding substitutes instead.

Profanity (the same we use now) was probably used just as much, if not more, in olden times as it is now, you're just not going to find that reflected via cable TV or PG-13 movies.

As for my feeling on "bad words" used IC? It's perfectly fine in moderation. If every other word that comes out of someone's character's mouth is a curse word, though, I probably won't want to RP with that person and won't think highly of their writing. Sure, you could argue "it's just their character," but I still have to question why they created that character in such a way and what they get out of it OOC to play that character. The same goes for people who curse every other word OOC, really. I don't like feeling like I'm hanging out with a middle-schooler who just learned all his "bad words" and wants to show off to all his friends while his parents aren't home.

Valence · **11-17-2015, 04:16 PM**

I think the issue is less than those words have a place in the setting, and a lot more that people tend to use them on a very gratuitous, over the top, basis.

When you tend to always go for the biggest superlative you can find, it eventually dampen a lot its meaning while creating a sort of linguistic discrepancy between people used to that to the point where some of the most extreme words are used on a hourly basis, and people that are not.

It's exactly like in cinema if you will: if you start only using close-up after close-up, then it loses its meaning pretty fast, especially when you eventually use one in a more justified moment that will just feel drown in the middle of all the other superfluous, over the top ones.Â

In short, your enemy here might be less the lexical language used rather than the context in which it is used.

Beware of the cheese or you will end up pretty fast in a shoddy cheap pulp clichÃ©.

Edit: also, one can also have to take into account the tone used by the setting and storytelling itself, and it's pretty bookish/convoluted english I find. Of course, that certainly doesn't prevent players to make the choice to darken their own setting a lot and go for different tones. And then, different tones clash together and can lead to... well. That.

Kage · **11-17-2015, 04:18 PM**

(11-17-2015, 03:42 PM)Aysun Wrote: Like I said, I prefer to see what is used by the NPCs be used by RPers. They seem to use archaic words AND modern British(loosely)-style stuff.

This fails to answer why a word such as "fuck" is inappropriate. As mentioned before, one reason for its lack of use in a game is highly likely to be the rating of the game. It's already been stated that it's not just a modern word. At some point in time someone's going to get tired of using "pissing" or "swiving" and will want another. We all have our flavor for how we swear even in real life, perhaps they just don't like how pissing or swiving are used. Nor do they want to bugger off.

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[NSFW] RP Discussion: Bad words said IC, for it or against it?

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