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Xefjord Demaret · **06-09-2016, 02:49 AM**

As someone who wants to get back into role playing on FFXIV. I was thinking of playing a detective/police like character and I was wondering if there is any specifically described laws mentioned for any of the city states? If there is any laws we can safely assume exist? And if there is any laws that exist within one city state but not another? I feel as though it would be interesting to know more about the legal scene within Eorzea.

Valence · **06-09-2016, 07:20 AM**

That's a huge topic but yes. I'm not at my desktop so I can't write an exhaustive answer but in summary :

Limsa's laws for example have a huge take into making cutthraot pirates living together under the Thalassocracy. There is also a huge part of that with the customs of Melvaan's gate (ACN quests) and the pirates 3 rules (rogue quests). All in all they are quite lax and lenient but for freedom loving pirates they sure prove restraining.

Gridania's laws lie on the Pact of Gelmorra: everyone has to comply to the laws of the Elementals, or risk starting a Greenwrath or various other dreadful ends about pissing off the forest. In a nutshell the gridanians take great care listening to their Hearers and try to police every poacher, or individuals creating elemental imbalances.

In Ishgard too, everyone has to follow the Halonic code on heresy, heterodoxy, etc, but the nation has been going into a serious restructuration where everyone has been wondering how to interpret the holy scriptures now that Heavensward has happened (cf quests for the scholasticate for example).

Caspar · **06-09-2016, 04:22 PM**

As far as I can tell the Ishgardian legal system is based on testimony before evidence and thus people like Inspector Briardien would be an oddity. Testimony based guilt determination gives the Inquisition greater power, especially if they can extract a confession, so that would make sense. I feel the fact that the Halonic headed jury had so much power of arbitration and the existence of trial by combat supposed guilt not necessarily determined by unanimous vote, but I can't recall the specific dialogue of that scene. The other states I can't tell much more than that.

desmond28 · **06-09-2016, 05:37 PM**

I play a detective character and I've wondered the same. However, you don't have to get too deep into lore to know that murder, theft, assault, aggravated assault, sexual assault, kidnap, grand theft chocobo (haha) are all going to be heinous crimes.

As an enforcer of the law you don't have to worry about how the criminals will be prosecuted since you don't do that. You're just collecting evidence, interviewing people, and bringing in the bad guy(s). Get creative with it, it's a hell of a lot of fun to play this kind of character.

Caspar · **06-09-2016, 06:05 PM**

(06-09-2016, 05:37 PM)desmond28 Wrote: I play a detective character and I've wondered the same. However, you don't have to get too deep into lore to know that murder, theft, assault, aggravated assault, sexual assault, kidnap, grand theft chocobo (haha) are all going to be heinous crimes.

As an enforcer of the law you don't have to worry about how the criminals will be prosecuted since you don't do that. You're just collecting evidence, interviewing people, and bringing in the bad guy(s). Get creative with it, it's a hell of a lot of fun to play this kind of character.

Hm, but what evidence can be considered permissible in a court of law might be important. Though just as like you could handwave it as being accepted unofficially or in this court, etc. or the discovery leads to the criminal incriminating themselves.

desmond28 · **06-09-2016, 08:52 PM**

(06-09-2016, 06:05 PM)Caspar Wrote:
(06-09-2016, 05:37 PM)desmond28 Wrote: I play a detective character and I've wondered the same. However, you don't have to get too deep into lore to know that murder, theft, assault, aggravated assault, sexual assault, kidnap, grand theft chocobo (haha) are all going to be heinous crimes.

As an enforcer of the law you don't have to worry about how the criminals will be prosecuted since you don't do that. You're just collecting evidence, interviewing people, and bringing in the bad guy(s). Get creative with it, it's a hell of a lot of fun to play this kind of character.
Hm, but what evidence can be considered permissible in a court of law might be important. Though just as like you could handwave it as being accepted unofficially or in this court, etc. or the discovery leads to the criminal incriminating themselves.

Sure, if one is willing to RP it out that far. But what is permissible is not determined by the investigator. He just builds the case and does what he can to bring the bad guy in. Playing a detective can get complicated if you worry about all that prosecuting stuff. I like to keep it simple and just focus on catching the bad guy, that's the fun part!

Then again I also RP it out a little differently. My bad guys don't escape justice... Hm hm hmmmm ;-)

Warren Castille · **06-09-2016, 09:04 PM**

Have we seen an example of actual court/lawyers in the game?

desmond28 · **06-09-2016, 09:16 PM**

The closest thing we have is tribunals in the game, unless I have missed something (and very well could have).

Here is an interesting read, however.

http://ffxiv-roleplayers.com/showthread.php?tid=4304

Xefjord Demaret · **06-10-2016, 01:45 PM**

(06-09-2016, 09:16 PM)desmond28 Wrote: The closest thing we have is tribunals in the game, unless I have missed something (and very well could have).

Here is an interesting read, however.

http://ffxiv-roleplayers.com/showthread.php?tid=4304

Ah! Thanks for the read, and thanks for everyone's input above. What the poster in your linked article says makes a lot of sense.

However I think there is still a bit more we can add to our theoretical list of laws. Even as far back as Roman Times there was a Statute of Limitations. And sometimes in our Detective dramas that can play an important role. I would imagine that each city state has its own statute of limitations, Ul'dah for instance having a complicated system of many different statutes for different types of crimes. The Statute for Contracts and property related deals could be quite high, from 20-30 years. Then for things such as violence, the Statute of limitations could be low, as it happens so often and the corrupt in the brass blades and (higher ups who use violence to silence the minorities) would want to avoid having to deal with these cases as much as possible. Say 1-3 years. And the statute for violent crimes that involve murder or sexual slavery could last like 10 years. Meanwhile in Limsa, they may carry a general statute of limitations. where most crimes are given a 20 year period to be solved. I could see Gridania and Ishgard as not really having a statute of limitations at all though. Seeing as how no matter when they did it, any crime against the twelveswood could cause danger. And in Ishgard if you are at any point proven to be guilty, they will probably lock you up forever. The first will still probably give you a fair trial, but the second probably won't.

I also think that certain voices would be valued far more for evidence than others. I believe in Gridania, if you are a Keeper Miqo'te going against an Elezen citizen, his word will be held as more reliable than your own. Subjecting characters to prejudice based upon their race. I am sure Gridania still is not all that fond of outsiders. Meanwhile in Ul'dah it would be far less racially based, and more socially based. If you are high in the social class, your word will be valued more than a peasants. Making it harder to win a case against those of upper class and easier against those of lower class. Limsa is probably the fairest of all the courts to be convicted in, not discriminating so much about about race or social class.

Lastly I also think there may be rules and regulations on which city state will even take your case, if at all. If you are in Ul'dah and a crime is committed against you, but you are of poor social creed, you may have a very hard time in those trials. And you won't be able to have the trial done within Gridania or Limsa because it is out of their jurisdiction. If you are a Citizen of Gridania but a crime is committed against you in Ul'dah. Then I think in the case of non violent crime, your only option will be through Ul'dah's court systems. However if it is a violent crime? Then Gridanian officials will step in to protect one of their own, even if they may not be able to catch the criminal. They can set out a warrant for their arrest if they ever step within the shroud. I think Gridania would be the best city state to be a citizen of if you are looking for protection from violent crime wherever you are. Limsa to a lesser extent. And Ul'dah is mixed depending on how much money you have, they will probably impede upon other city states in cases regarding property with their citizens (Making citizenship ideal if you are a trader)

What do you all think of these ideas? It can add more challenge in regards to lawyers having to defend their clients and adds more leeway for criminals. Because being a private investigator can't be all fun and games. The best detective stories are the ones where the laws or bureaucracy are kind of against you. But you still try your hardest to bring justice.

P.S. In regards to evidence permissible in a court of law. I would imagine you still have to get warrants in each city state (Except perhaps Ishgard) in order to do a search. In order to get a warrant there needs to be more evidence than just a witness. I actually kind of wonder if Ul'dah wouldn't be the only city state to implement a warning at the beginning of the conversation in order for a conversation to be valid as evidence (However it may only qualify for Ul'dahn citizens). I can't see why a port city of pirates would care too much about warnings (Or be smart enough to remember it), or why Gridania or Ishgard would ever restrain themselves if they felt their social order was in danger merely because the accused wasn't "warned" their words may be used against them. You probably are not given a lawyer in any city state as a freebie. If you are poor you are on your own unless you can convince someone to help you. I could see Ul'dah forcing you to get a lawyer however, and pull a loan in order to get one if you are called to court. (I am sure the money will make its way back to the syndicate somehow)

Sounsyy · **06-10-2016, 03:25 PM**

While not exactly in line with your question, there was another thread found here which covered the Eorzean city-state's political structures, including some of their law enforcement methods. It's vague, but there's not a ton to go on. Every city-state is vastly different in their legal and law enforcement system, so picking each apart would be quite a task.

A few things I can list off the top of my head that are illegal in all/most city states:
-Consorting with the Void.
-Black Magic
-Consorting with beast tribes. (Exception: perfectly acceptable in Limsa Lominsa!)
-Murder (Debatable in Limsa... from certain lore texts.)
-Slave Trade
-Treason

There's a lot more things, but like I said that would be a really really long post trying to go into 1.0 and find a bunch of crimes/punishments. Gridania has the law of the Wood's elementals. Ul'dah is ruled by coin and those who have the most of it. Limsa Lominsa is a former free-state now ruled over by martial law, so it's Merlwyb's word. Ishgard /was/ ruled by the Halonic Church and its doctrine. There are reforms coming to that city-state which are expounded upon in recent patches.

Hope that helps a little at least! ^^;

Xefjord Demaret · **06-10-2016, 05:25 PM**

(06-10-2016, 03:25 PM)Sounsyy Wrote: While not exactly in line with your question, there was another thread found here which covered the Eorzean city-state's political structures, including some of their law enforcement methods. It's vague, but there's not a ton to go on. Every city-state is vastly different in their legal and law enforcement system, so picking each apart would be quite a task.

A few things I can list off the top of my head that are illegal in all/most city states:
-Consorting with the Void.
-Black Magic
-Consorting with beast tribes. (Exception: perfectly acceptable in Limsa Lominsa!)
-Murder (Debatable in Limsa... from certain lore texts.)
-Slave Trade
-Treason

There's a lot more things, but like I said that would be a really really long post trying to go into 1.0 and find a bunch of crimes/punishments. Gridania has the law of the Wood's elementals. Ul'dah is ruled by coin and those who have the most of it. Limsa Lominsa is a former free-state now ruled over by martial law, so it's Merlwyb's word. Ishgard /was/ ruled by the Halonic Church and its doctrine. There are reforms coming to that city-state which are expounded upon in recent patches.

Hope that helps a little at least! ^^;

Yeah it helps a lot! Thank you!
The general list of crimes that I think most places have now a days are
Assault
Battery
False Imprisonment
Kidnapping
Homocide
Sexual Assault
Larceny
Robbery
Burglary
Arson
Embezzlement
Forgery
False Pretenses
Reciept of Stolen Goods
Attempt- (murder, assault, robbery, ect)
Solicitation
and Conspiracy.
What I wonder is out of the list, what city states DON'T cover. So Limsa may not always cover homocide. If they do not always cover homocide do they cover sexual assault? Is Reciept of stolen goods (The buying of goods you know are stolen) legal in Limsa? ect.

Valence · **06-10-2016, 05:50 PM**

I would think that Limsa's trials are probably not that more fair than others: if you are a wealthy captain with many connections and political leverage, or if you are just a lominsan sailor...

If they have trials to begin with...

For Ul'dah I would actually expect them not to force anyone with a lawyer (unlike Isghard) : you can afford one, or you can't.

If they have even lawyers to begin with...

For warnings, kerp in mind that's typically an american thing. I don't think Eorzea is America.

Actually I think that trying to equate Eorzean laws and trials with contemporary concepts is a slippery slope... Even detectives. We have Briardien ingame yes, but he is also presented as an oddity rather than a common thing.

How do city states resolve crimes I think? Isghard actually does that with trials by combat or religious inquisitory requests to the Holy See (as seen in the MSQ). They couldnt care less about the truth, but more about appearance and/or political implications. The testimony of a noble vs the word of a commoner, etc.

Why would it be different with the other ones? Detectives are oddities and probably not a thing/rare and not actually part of the law and even less of the system. Keep in mind that actual rational investigation is a pretty modern thing even IRL.Â

The only case where I could see them operate is either for private contractors or behind the scene for governments on sensitive cases. But they probably have no legal leeway in the case of actual justice.

Xefjord Demaret · **06-10-2016, 06:09 PM**

(06-10-2016, 05:50 PM)Valence Wrote: I would think that Limsa's trials are probably not that more fair than others: if you are a wealthy captain with many connections and political leverage, or if you are just a lominsan sailor...

If they have trials to begin with...

For Ul'dah I would actually expect them not to force anyone with a lawyer (unlike Isghard) : you can afford one, or you can't.

If they have even lawyers to begin with...

For warnings, kerp in mind that's typically an american thing. I don't think Eorzea is America.

Actually I think that trying to equate Eorzean laws and trials with contemporary concepts is a slippery slope... Even detectives. We have Briardien ingame yes, but he is also presented as an oddity rather than a common thing.

How do city states resolve crimes I think? Isghard actually does that with trials by combat or religious inquisitory requests to the Holy See (as seen in the MSQ). They couldnt care less about the truth, but more about appearance and/or political implications. The testimony of a noble vs the word of a commoner, etc.

Why would it be different with the other ones? Detectives are oddities and probably not a thing/rare and not actually part of the law and even less of the system. Keep in mind that actual rational investigation is a pretty modern thing even IRL.Â

The only case where I could see them operate is either for private contractors or behind the scene for governments on sensitive cases. But they probably have no legal leeway in the case of actual justice.

The only thing I really want my character to do, is to know what is a crime in each city state. And if someone commits a crime and the victim contracts him, to 1. Discover if they actually committed the crime. 2. Find sufficient evidence that they committed the crime. then 3. Report it to the appropriate authorities to handle. I don't actually intend upon playing a lawyer character lol. But he probably won't stop hassling the law enforcement until they do something. The actually getting the character tried is just speculation that I thought would be enjoyable to have.

Kilieit · **06-10-2016, 10:11 PM**

Off the top of my head, here's what I would say Limsa's three law enforcement agencies deal with:

Mealvaan's Gate
Smuggling
Tax evasion
Falsifying of documents/currency
Forgery
Possession of contraband
(*Broadly speaking, "financial" crimes. If it took place primarily with pieces of paper and sacks of coin, then it's probably a matter for the Gate. Also remember that Vylbrand is an island - the import laws on animals and plants are going to be comparable to those in New Zealand or Madagascar in terms of restrictiveness.)

Rogues' Guild (Dutiful Sisters of the Eidelweiss; Upright Thieves; etc...)
Theft
Embezzlement
Possibly burglary?
(*Note that what counts as "theft" in Limsa Lominsa is very specific. It has to be something that's stolen from a Lominsan (and by extension it's assumed this also applies to Alliance members and peaceful beastman within the city); and it has to be something that the Lominsan(/etc) in question earned in the first place.)

Yellowjackets
Assault
Arson
...etc. Violent crime, basically.
(*So these are your nightwatchmen, "keeping the peace" types. Of the three, they're most comparable to the "regular police guys" on your detective shows who turn up when the excitement is over to mess up your evidence and tell you you've got 3 days to solve the case or you're fired. They even have their own of what I would call plain-clothes PCSOs working near the entrance to the city, hehe. They have a reputation of axeing people first and asking questions later. I would also guess the Yellowjackets are tasked with helping Mealvaan's Gate enforce their writs. The Rogues can, well... enforce their own damn writs.)

And all three seem to come down very hard on kidnapping, slavery, trafficking of spoken (and probably arguably beastmen), and false imprisonment; that's a strong theme in both the Sisters and the Gate questchains. Lominsans like their freedom.

When it's something bigger (like treason), they seem to work together (see: ROG 30 quest that took me like 5 attempts to complete because I kept dying).

--

As far as what happens after the person is caught is concerned, Mealvaan's Gate seem the most likely to move for imprisonment or banishment. The Yellowjackets and the Rogues have both been known to hold, um... let's say "impromptu executions".

I'd say the Yellowjackets are more likely to wrongly execute someone immediately after catching them, but it hugely depends on which specific Yellowjackets are on the case - we've seen some who are very keen on their "due procedure". With the Rogues, they do a lot more investigating before they go after the person, but once that pursuit has begun then the person's fate is more or less already sealed and I'd say it's fairly unlikely that they're going to end up in a gaol cell. They seem to like either stringing people up (hog-tying them, hanging from a high place, and letting them wriggle free of their own accord) or "milling" (killing) them depending on the severity of what was done. Theft is usually dealt with by retrieving the stolen goods. Slavery, well... them's how ye get yerself milled.

--

I highly recommend playing through the ROG, ACN, and MRD quest chains to get a better handle on what the legal atmosphere is like in Limsa, since it's a bit of an outlier in terms of comparisons to countries like America or England. They only last to level 30 and with full armoury bonus will likely take a day or two at most to complete. (Plus they're fun! Or I think they are anyway. ...ROG and ACN, at least.)

One last thing to note is that it's unlikely your character would report directly to the Rogues' guild about any given crime - it is not a public organisation, despite being a law enforcement agency. You'd likely be expected to either report to the Yellowjackets (who may or may not care, depending on who the desk sergeant is that day) or to Mealvaan's Gate, depending on what the crime is. Then, it'd be delegated to the Rogues if necessary from there... assuming the Rogues were not already aware of their own nosy selves.

This was sort of a headcanon-y ramble but hopefully something in there was at least interesting.

Xefjord Demaret · **06-10-2016, 11:27 PM**

So I made a list, I will state each crime then a (G/U/L/I) for Gridania, Ul'dah, Limsa, and Ishgard. If its letter is next to the crime, that means it is illegal in that city state. If there is a * that means there is exceptions. Just because something may be illegal as well, does not mean that the law enforcement will always be compliant. So tell me what you guys think:

Personal Crimes

Assault (G/U/L*/I)
Battery (G/U/I)
False Imprisonment (U/L)
Kidnapping (G/U/L/I)
Homicide (G/U/L*/I)
Sexual Assault (G/U/L/I)

Property Crimes

Larceny (G/U/L*/I)
Robbery (G/U/L*/I)
Burglary (G/U/L*/I)
Arson (G/U/L/I)
Embezzlement (G/U/L/I)
Forgery (G/U/L/I)
False Pretenses (G/U/I)
Receipt of Stolen Goods (G/L*/I)

Inchoate Crimes

Attempted- (Murder, Assault, Robbery, ect) (G/U/L*/I)
Solicitation (G/I)
Conspiracy (G/U/L/I)

Additional Crimes

Tax Evasion (G/U/L/I)
Smuggling Contraband (G/U/L/I)
Usage of Black Magic (G/U/L/I)
Consorting with the Void (G/U/L/I)
Consorting with Beast Tribes (G/U/I)
Slavery (G/U/L/I)
Poaching (G)
Unwarranted Deforestation (G)

If there is anything you all think should be changed, tell me Big Grin

[Discussion] What do we know about the laws of Eorzea?

RPC has moved! These pages have been kept for historical purposes