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Kilieit · **07-06-2016, 11:42 AM**

The Gelmorrans lived fine underground for so long because the Elementals could rage up above all they liked, Gelmorra was outside of their jurisdiction (and therefore outside of their power).

Once the Gridanians started living in the surface world, the Gelmorrans could no longer live as they always had without causing severe danger and loss of life to those up above.

An angry Elemental doesn't care that it's the people under the ground causing the disturbance - they also don't care if it's a child, or someone with no choice. They just comprehend that their will is not "being done".

Those who live in the surface Twelveswood will always be subject to Elemental-wrought consequences from the actions of those who visit the Twelveswood or who live at its fringes.

If your take-away from this is that Elementals are dicks, then you're not alone.

Valence · **07-06-2016, 12:21 PM**

(07-06-2016, 11:42 AM)Kilieit Wrote: Once the Gridanians started living in the surface world, the Gelmorrans could no longer live as they always had without causing severe danger and loss of life to those up above.

An angry Elemental doesn't care that it's the people under the ground causing the disturbance - they also don't care if it's a child, or someone with no choice. They just comprehend that their will is not "being done".

Why would elementals be pissed about what happens underground? They are not harming the Shroud in any case, no interacting with it, except if they get out to poach (but that's the same shit than with wild Keeper clans and other poachers anyway).

Yssen · **07-06-2016, 12:27 PM**

(07-06-2016, 12:21 PM)Valence Wrote:
(07-06-2016, 11:42 AM)Kilieit Wrote: Once the Gridanians started living in the surface world, the Gelmorrans could no longer live as they always had without causing severe danger and loss of life to those up above.

An angry Elemental doesn't care that it's the people under the ground causing the disturbance - they also don't care if it's a child, or someone with no choice. They just comprehend that their will is not "being done".

Why would elementals be pissed about what happens underground? They are not harming the Shroud in any case, no interacting with it, except if they get out to poach (but that's the same shit than with wild Keeper clans and other poachers anyway).

There is a large assumption running around that The Elementals are benevolent, largely because the Grids say they are. The Grids are... less than reliable narrators/sources when it comes to this. When you look at a lot of the ways The Elementals work going all the way back to 1.0, you get very "IF YOUR GOD TELLS YOU TO BURN CHILDREN, THEN IT IS EVIL!" vibe.

Kilieit · **07-06-2016, 12:42 PM**

(07-06-2016, 12:21 PM)Valence Wrote:
(07-06-2016, 11:42 AM)Kilieit Wrote: Once the Gridanians started living in the surface world, the Gelmorrans could no longer live as they always had without causing severe danger and loss of life to those up above.

An angry Elemental doesn't care that it's the people under the ground causing the disturbance - they also don't care if it's a child, or someone with no choice. They just comprehend that their will is not "being done".

Why would elementals be pissed about what happens underground? They are not harming the Shroud in any case, no interacting with it, except if they get out to poach (but that's the same shit than with wild Keeper clans and other poachers anyway).

You're assuming that the Elementals are

A) logical

B) reasonable

C) nice.

None of these have been demonstrated to be true. ;D

It's quite possible that they're pissed off at Gelmorra for existing in the Shroud but outside of their reach, for example. Or at specific Gelmorrans for being the offspring of someone who cut down a tree once a thousand years ago; and, by association, everyone who's ever had physical contact with that family, or talked to them, or passed them in the street. Or just because they felt like it today.

Think "Fair Folk", not "benevolent forest gods".

Shoshopu · **07-06-2016, 02:57 PM**

According to the lost interview Sounsyy is citing, the Elementals were actually okay with the Duskwights continuing to live underground.

If that's the case, you ask, why did the Wildwoods and Gridanians respond the way they did to the Duskwights' decision to remain underground? The simplest answer is probably just your garden variety racism. Racial/clan schisms probably already began while they were still underground, when the elezen who would go on to become the Duskwights started to dig deeper. Being allowed to come to the surface was just reason enough for those on the surface to act out on their racism.

I mean, in the real world people do horrible things to eachother all the time for absolutely no justifiable or logical reason, and come up with their own justifications for it, too. I don't see why Gridanians' racism needs to be explained by the Elementals. This is how Gridanians justify their actions today, of course, but that doesn't mean it's actually true.

Kilieit · **07-06-2016, 03:07 PM**

(07-06-2016, 02:57 PM)Shoshopu Wrote: I mean, in the real world people do horrible things to eachother all the time for absolutely no justifiable or logical reason, and come up with their own justifications for it, too.

True - I think it does say a lot about the Gridanians that they view the Elementals (unpredictable, amoral - not unmoral, amoral - and violent) as benevolent, and that listening to them is a good form of government. I can't remember the simile I opened the post to write, but in essence - it's easy for most people to do terrible things in the name of someone else, especially when that "someone else" is already fickle and violent and viewed as good despite being fickle and violent.

Valence · **07-06-2016, 03:28 PM**

(07-06-2016, 12:27 PM)Yssen Wrote: There is a large assumption running around that The Elementals are benevolent, largely because the Grids say they are. The Grids are... less than reliable narrators/sources when it comes to this. When you look at a lot of the ways The Elementals work going all the way back to 1.0, you get very "IF YOUR GOD TELLS YOU TO BURN CHILDREN, THEN IT IS EVIL!" vibe.

(07-06-2016, 12:42 PM)Kilieit Wrote: You're assuming that the Elementals are

A) logical

B) reasonable

C) nice.

None of these have been demonstrated to be true. ;D

It's quite possible that they're pissed off at Gelmorra for existing in the Shroud but outside of their reach, for example. Or at specific Gelmorrans for being the offspring of someone who cut down a tree once a thousand years ago; and, by association, everyone who's ever had physical contact with that family, or talked to them, or passed them in the street. Or just because they felt like it today.

Think "Fair Folk", not "benevolent forest gods".

Uh...

I'm not assuming anything. I just see absolutely no reason whatsoever for the elementals to be pissy about people underground. Or else they would have sent the Ixali to do their dirty work with the old Gelmorans just when they installed there, the same way that in your scenario they send Gridanian dealing with the duskwights that stayed behind.

I don't think that makes sense and the fact that they never sent the Ixali to genocide the whole race of Gelmorans before makes me more inclined to believe that the decision to wipe the Duskwights left behind was taken purely on the Gridanian side. As everyone knows, what Hearers say...

Actually, I would tend to say that telling that the Elementals sent the Gridanian do that, or told them to do so, would actually be pretty part of the realm of assumptions there. I don't recall having read anything in the lore to have stated that... But maybe I'm missing something?

In any case, that looks a lot more like a political decision rather than a mystical one born out of Greenwrath stuff or anything. I don't see elementals dealing into political decisions. Elementals always seemed to be pretty grey and neutral and only concerned and reacting against what threatens the balance of their wood/biosphere. No righteousness, no evilness whatsoever.

(07-06-2016, 02:57 PM)Shoshopu Wrote: According to the lost interview Sounsyy is citing, the Elementals were actually okay with the Duskwights continuing to live underground.

If that's the case, you ask, why did the Wildwoods and Gridanians respond the way they did to the Duskwights' decision to remain underground? The simplest answer is probably just your garden variety racism. Racial/clan schisms probably already began while they were still underground, when the elezen who would go on to become the Duskwights started to dig deeper. Being allowed to come to the surface was just reason enough for those on the surface to act out on their racism.

I mean, in the real world people do horrible things to eachother all the time for absolutely no justifiable or logical reason, and come up with their own justifications for it, too. I don't see why Gridanians' racism needs to be explained by the Elementals. This is how Gridanians justify their actions today, of course, but that doesn't mean it's actually true.

While racism goes a long way explaining and leading to all sort of atrocities like genocides, I fear that's rarely enough of a reason to start such a wildfire in itself though. That's why I'm interested to know about it actually. It's probably based on a hefty dose of racism, but something, a spark, must have ignited the whole powderkeg here.

LiadansWhisper · **07-06-2016, 08:02 PM**

(07-06-2016, 12:27 PM)Yssen Wrote: There is a large assumption running around that The Elementals are benevolent, largely because the Grids say they are. The Grids are... less than reliable narrators/sources when it comes to this. When you look at a lot of the ways The Elementals work going all the way back to 1.0, you get very "IF YOUR GOD TELLS YOU TO BURN CHILDREN, THEN IT IS EVIL!" vibe.

The ultimate point being that the Elementals are not, never have been, and probably never will be, anything close to human. They don't have our morals, or values. The Gridanians talk about them as benevolent, and ascribe benevolent motives to them, and maybe they are. But people should never forget that the Elementals are extremely divorced from the morality of the mortal world.

Which is not to say that they're malicious. But, real person talk here - tornadoes are not "malicious," but they still kill the shit out of people.

LiadansWhisper · **07-06-2016, 08:04 PM**

(07-06-2016, 03:28 PM)Valence Wrote: Uh...

I'm not assuming anything. I just see absolutely no reason whatsoever for the elementals to be pissy about people underground. Or else they would have sent the Ixali to do their dirty work with the old Gelmorans just when they installed there, the same way that in your scenario they send Gridanian dealing with the duskwights that stayed behind.

I don't think that makes sense and the fact that they never sent the Ixali to genocide the whole race of Gelmorans before makes me more inclined to believe that the decision to wipe the Duskwights left behind was taken purely on the Gridanian side. As everyone knows, what Hearers say...

Actually, I would tend to say that telling that the Elementals sent the Gridanian do that, or told them to do so, would actually be pretty part of the realm of assumptions there. I don't recall having read anything in the lore to have stated that... But maybe I'm missing something?

In any case, that looks a lot more like a political decision rather than a mystical one born out of Greenwrath stuff or anything. I don't see elementals dealing into political decisions. Elementals always seemed to be pretty grey and neutral and only concerned and reacting against what threatens the balance of their wood/biosphere. No righteousness, no evilness whatsoever.

They most likely didn't send the Ixali because the Ixali were already in their own shitpile for tearing the forest up in fits of rage. They actually got exiled for destroying swaths of the forest because they were mad there were mortals there.

Morningstar1337 · **07-06-2016, 08:06 PM**

(07-06-2016, 08:02 PM)LiadansWhisper Wrote: But, real person talk here - tornadoes are not "malicious," but they still kill the shit out of people.

Tornadoes are also insentient. But I supposs this bring sup the (probably stupid) question of, are all the Elementals sentient, are merely semiconscious? I feel like with some exceptions that the more metaphysical something is the less sentience they show at least in the mortal plain (INB4 someone mentions Oha-Sok)

On a related note, Hydaelyn's being sentient has been confirmed from the get go since we were able to visit her plain of existence several times.

Yssen · **07-06-2016, 09:04 PM**

(07-06-2016, 08:06 PM)Morningstar1337 Wrote:
(07-06-2016, 08:02 PM)LiadansWhisper Wrote: But, real person talk here - tornadoes are not "malicious," but they still kill the shit out of people.

Tornadoes are also insentient. But I supposs this bring sup the (probably stupid) question of, are all the Elementals sentient, are merely semiconscious? I feel like with some exceptions that the more metaphysical something is the less sentience they show at least in the mortal plain (INB4 someone mentions Oha-Sok)

On a related note, Hydaelyn's being sentient has been confirmed from the get go since we were able to visit her plain of existence several times.

The Elementals are sentient, yes. They are aware of what they are doing, but do not necessarily work of the same sort of moral set or values that people do.

Valence · **07-07-2016, 03:29 AM**

(07-06-2016, 08:04 PM)LiadansWhisper Wrote: They most likely didn't send the Ixali because the Ixali were already in their own shitpile for tearing the forest up in fits of rage. Â They actually got exiled for destroying swaths of the forest because they were mad there were mortals there.

Well that's the thing then. Elementals didn't care about mortals underground.

In that case Ixali got exiled for making a hissy fit when elementals couldn't give a shit about it.

LiadansWhisper · **07-07-2016, 07:53 PM**

(07-07-2016, 03:29 AM)Valence Wrote:
(07-06-2016, 08:04 PM)LiadansWhisper Wrote: They most likely didn't send the Ixali because the Ixali were already in their own shitpile for tearing the forest up in fits of rage. Â They actually got exiled for destroying swaths of the forest because they were mad there were mortals there.

Well that's the thing then. Elementals didn't care about mortals underground.

In that case Ixali got exiled for making a hissy fit when elementals couldn't give a shit about it.

Pretty sure the Gelmorrans weren't staying underground 100% of the time. Probably because they did need to get food sometimes.

Valence · **07-08-2016, 04:12 AM**

Oh I'm sure they probably poached here and there, although from what I gather the elementals were kinda not forgiving at all when a single elezen or hyur got to wander and got to hunt them down pretty fast, contrary to the current day where they can roam around freely since well... Gridania.

For all we know, they had underground cultures too. I fail to see how you can feed such a large population without any proper agriculture, by just living of hunting/gathering methods in a land that will systematically try to kill you as soon as you step in it...

LiadansWhisper · **07-09-2016, 03:13 AM**

(07-08-2016, 04:12 AM)Valence Wrote: Oh I'm sure they probably poached here and there, although from what I gather the elementals were kinda not forgiving at all when a single elezen or hyur got to wander and got to hunt them down pretty fast, contrary to the current day where they can roam around freely since well... Gridania.

For all we know, they had underground cultures too. I fail to see how you can feed such a large population without any proper agriculture, by just living of hunting/gathering methods in a land that will systematically try to kill you as soon as you step in it...

Well, it is a fantasy setting. I find it hard to believe that they'd be able to sustain themselves on lichen for a long period of time. Laugh

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