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Renault Delumiere · **09-21-2016, 01:59 PM**

Hi all,

It's been a very, very long time since I've been around here, but this thought popped into my head and I am curious as to what everyone's opinions are on this particular topic.

Using in-game achievement as a means of credibility for character back story.

Examples of this would be things like:
- Players who are highly rated in The Feast RPing as being more talented at fighting others.
- Players who hold Realm first kills of encounters RPing that they were actually present at the time of the creatures downfall (think Coil, Alexander, etc.)
- Players who have made a trading empire and mountains of gil actually RPing that they are extremely wealthy and have a hold on several markets.

I ask this, because back when I RP'd in World of Warcraft, it was widely agreed upon that characters who held these prestigious achievements would be recognized for them ICly.

I am interested in hearing your thoughts and opinions.

Edit:

I am seeing a lot of the same reply, so I wish to clarify something.

I am not suggesting that in-game achievement is more important than good writing, but that it adds credibility to a claim.

Kilieit · **09-21-2016, 02:02 PM**

RP is my priority. I don't enjoy and am not good at gameplay. On the contrary, I put a lot of time and effort and thought and love into developing my characters and trying (sometimes failing, sometimes succeeding) to make them compelling and interesting.

Does that mean I should be limited to playing poor civilians with no combat experience, even if I think I have a good idea for & the roleplay skills to pull off a character who falls outside of that? Because I can't PvP, don't have the energy to devote to realm-first raiding, and have a disability that means I'm bad with numbers?

If someone's done those things, was inspired to roleplay by them, and incorporates them into their story, I don't have a problem with that. But lording themselves as "more legitimate" than someone without the achievements in question comes across as arrogant, mean, and - in some cases I had in WoW - kinda like, "oh well I'm better than all of you at roleplay because I've got this world first achievement" when the person doesn't even roleplay regularly.

Cecily Jisi · **09-21-2016, 02:10 PM**

Achievement: Despicable You.

Cecily collects minions as companions. Some are mere pets (like the basic animals), some are used to aid Cecily in tasks (such as the gravel golem for mining), and some may even be able to aid in combat (such as the Yo-Kai).

Renault Delumiere · **09-21-2016, 02:12 PM**

I'd like to think it's so much as "I am better than you at roleplay" but rather, "There are game systems and achievements I have that give legitimate claim to my characters strengths and achievements."

Let's take PVP for example. If the top PVPer was also a good role player, would you not recognize them as such ICly?

Virella · **09-21-2016, 02:15 PM**

(09-21-2016, 01:59 PM)Renault Delumiere Wrote: I ask this, because back when I RP'd in World of Warcraft, it was widely agreed upon that characters who held these prestigious achievements would be recognized for them ICly.

I don't know what server you were on, but mine would still label that as 'bad roleplay'.

Kilieit · **09-21-2016, 02:16 PM**

(09-21-2016, 02:12 PM)Renault Delumiere Wrote: I'd like to think it's so much as "I am better than you at roleplay" but rather, "There are game systems and achievements I have that give legitimate claim to my characters strengths and achievements."

Let's take PVP for example. If the top PVPer was also a good role player, would you not recognize them as such ICly?

Well yeah, but no moreso than if my friend who has never touched a PvP game in their life also came out with a character who's a combat pro.

If they play the character concept well, I could not give a single lonely toss if they have the OOC achievement to back it up or not.

Gegenji · **09-21-2016, 02:29 PM**

I think it's just a better practice to see how the person portrays their characters in RP rather than to just have them point to an achievement. Not to demean their efforts, of course, but I think it more of an apples and oranges situation. Just because a player did something in the game itself (defeating all the primals, collecting all the mounts/minions/etc) does not mean that their character has ICly done these things, and there are things characters may have done ICly that they've never actually done OOCly (accumulate mass amounts of wealth, for example). Doing something in one aspect doesn't preclude it was done in the other. And it wouldn't exactly be fair to limit someone's RP creativity to something they may not have the actual OOC capability to do.

So, rather than just point to their PVP ranking to show how awesome they are in combat, I'd rather see them write their combat with flair and style that lets me think on my own that they're a good fighter. It's... hard to explain, and I'm starting to get rambly. Still, I hope I'm making sense.

Balken · **09-21-2016, 02:34 PM**

I feel as though it's much more important for someone to be able to believably pull off a character concept then it is for them to OOC'ly be able to back a concept up. How RP is done in this game can mostly be considered a shared writing experience where we're all acting together to create stories in the XIV setting.Â

We're only interacting with the game in a round about way as we do this as in we may play, as an example, a mercenary, born in Ala Mhigo and committed to the restoration of his homeland. Yet we can only impact the Ala Mhigan resistance to other people and not the game world directly. In that way it's much more important that people could interact with us and think 'I could see him really being part of the resistance, this feels authentic to me.' Or something along those lines. ( I realize now my entire series of thoughts on this are hard to put properly into words! )

In some cases though some OOC things make that mutual writing and suspension of disbelief easier. My main character is an Ishgardian Dragoon. For me personally to feel as though I could pull that off in a realistic manner I first set about getting my class to cap, my armor augmented and then glamoured onto the pieces I wanted to use. That's not to say it's not possible to do without the armor, but that for me and the people I interact with regularly that helped make my character more believable.

^ the wording may be a little weird, I am coming off the crusp of insomnia so forgive me if it's off @_@;

Renault Delumiere · **09-21-2016, 02:41 PM**

(09-21-2016, 02:29 PM)Gegenji Wrote: I think it's just a better practice to see how the person portrays their characters in RP rather than to just have them point to an achievement. Not to demean their efforts, of course, but I think it more of an apples and oranges situation. Just because a player did something in the game itself (defeating all the primals, collecting all the mounts/minions/etc) does not mean that their character has ICly done these things, and there are things characters may have done ICly that they've never actually done OOCly (accumulate mass amounts of wealth, for example). Doing something in one aspect doesn't preclude it was done in the other. And it wouldn't exactly be fair to limit someone's RP creativity to something they may not have the actual OOC capability to do.

So, rather than just point to their PVP ranking to show how awesome they are in combat, I'd rather see them write their combat with flair and style that lets me think on my own that they're a good fighter. It's... hard to explain, and I'm starting to get rambly. Still, I hope I'm making sense.

I do understand what you're saying. However, in my experience it is -also- very rare for RPers to actually RP many of the things they claim their characters to be skilled at. Whether it be battle, tradecrafts, or something else.Â

To me, I think it is similar to the argument that a max level character is more credible than a fresh level 1. There are exceptions, but I am personally more inclined to believe that the person holding the server 1st kill of T13 was there to see Bahamut's final fall, rather than the Level 30 claiming the same.Â

To clarify, I am not claiming that this character is "better" or "stronger", just that they have more credibility to claim their achievements if they have in-game achievement to back it up.

Val · **09-21-2016, 02:45 PM**

I'm in the camp that OOC achievements based on OOC merit/gameplay =/= IC achievements. Your character can be everything in the game, but there is no realistic way for that to happen unless you mary sue them to hell and back. Some people have lives, jobs, or just think the PvP in the game is atrocious and would prefer spending their time doing something else that they think is fun. I don't believe it right to limit these people based on personal interest. As someone mentioned earlier, so long as they pick something and can RP it well enough for it to be believed, I don't really care what they do while playing the game. It's the character I'm interested in, not their individual achievements.

I played WoW for a very, very long time, and I'm not entirely sure when the achievement thing popped up. It must have been after I left. I do vaguely recall some people claiming they solo'd Onyxia/Ragnaos shortly after the first or second expansion IC and everyone laughing at them or just telling them it was impossible. But.. I mean, that's kind of common sense. Or you would think it would be.

Renault Delumiere · **09-21-2016, 02:56 PM**

(09-21-2016, 02:45 PM)Val Wrote: I played WoW for a very, very long time, and I'm not entirely sure when the achievement thing popped up. It must have been after I left. I do vaguely recall some people claiming they solo'd Onyxia/Ragnaos shortly after the first or second expansion IC and everyone laughing at them or just telling them it was impossible. But.. I mean, that's kind of common sense. Or you would think it would be.

Thanks for your reply. There was another poster asking about the WoW comment so I will clarify for you both!

There were a handful of players on Moon Guard who had claimed to be part of the groups of heroes who had conquered certain enemies. As a server-wide rule, you could only claim such if you held the realm-first title/acheivement associated with it.

I am thinking of one player in particular as an example, a Paladin named Eldanesh, who had the "Conqueror of Naxxaramas" title, which he then wore proudly, and was part of his story in which he had been part of the team to storm the undead fortress of Naxxaramas and kill the minions of the Lich King within.Â

Other players were free to claim to also have been alongside him, but they simply held less credibility. This was a discussion that was held on the realm forums (I think back in 2010?) and the general consensus was that this was "Ok" because only a small group of players could achieve these things and so there would not be hundreds of people walking around claiming to have killed the big bads ICly.

Gegenji · **09-21-2016, 02:59 PM**

(09-21-2016, 02:41 PM)Renault Delumiere Wrote: I do understand what you're saying. However, in my experience it is -also- very rare for RPers to actually RP many of the things they claim their characters to be skilled at. Whether it be battle, tradecrafts, or something else.Â

To me, I think it is similar to the argument that a max level character is more credible than a fresh level 1. There are exceptions, but I am personally more inclined to believe that the person holding the server 1st kill of T13 was there to see Bahamut's final fall, rather than the Level 30 claiming the same.Â

To clarify, I am not claiming that this character is "better" or "stronger", just that they have more credibility to claim their achievements if they have in-game achievement to back it up.

Bolding this bit for emphasis. That's still the desired outcome for what I'm looking for too - someone actually RPing what they say they're skilled at. The thing is, you can RP being a seasoned soldier without maxing out your GC rank. You can RP being a gillionaire without actually having millions upon millions of gil on your person.

The point is presenting it believably - show, don't tell. In a literary sense. Rather than just say you're a master of the sword, describe your combat as such.Â If you're an accomplished miner, describe your times down in the mines - digging among your peers at that vein of rich ore. If you're an Ishgardian noble, present yourself as such.

I get what you mean for people who claim they've fought every primal, arm-wrestled the Garlean Emperor into submission, and slept with every Scion twice. But those people are looked at askance already, and would likely still be looked at that way even if they were touting an achievement.

Also, to further play devil's advocate - some people don't even raid on their RP characters. I know people who RP on Balmung but do their raiding and whatnot on another server entirely. So, how do we know the player hasn't actually done what they've claimed on their level 15 alt they made? I think it's just far easier to just see how they present their character - how they show, rather than tell - and then decide whether you want to accept that character into your head canon for your own character's story.

... I warned you I was getting rambly. Blush

Val · **09-21-2016, 03:03 PM**

(09-21-2016, 02:56 PM)Renault Delumiere Wrote:
(09-21-2016, 02:45 PM)Val Wrote: I played WoW for a very, very long time, and I'm not entirely sure when the achievement thing popped up. It must have been after I left. I do vaguely recall some people claiming they solo'd Onyxia/Ragnaos shortly after the first or second expansion IC and everyone laughing at them or just telling them it was impossible. But.. I mean, that's kind of common sense. Or you would think it would be.

Thanks for your reply. There was another poster asking about the WoW comment so I will clarify for you both!

There were a handful of players on Moon Guard who had claimed to be part of the groups of heroes who had conquered certain enemies. As a server-wide rule, you could only claim such if you held the realm-first title/acheivement associated with it.

I am thinking of one player in particular as an example, a Paladin named Eldanesh, who had the "Conqueror of Naxxaramas" title, which he then wore proudly, and was part of his story in which he had been part of the team to storm the undead fortress of Naxxaramas and kill the minions of the Lich King within.Â

Other players were free to claim to also have been alongside him, but they simply held less credibility. This was a discussion that was held on the realm forums (I think back in 2010?) and the general consensus was that this was "Ok" because only a small group of players could achieve these things and so there would not be hundreds of people walking around claiming to have killed the big bads ICly.

Ah, yeah. That was after/around the time I quit, I think. I helped get super deep into Naxx 40 back in the day, but I never really cared to do Naxx 20 because it was just.. idk. The same?

I was on Moon Guard when The Council was around, which consisted of myself (RPing as a guard), Dreyfus, uh.. Nithian? Female rogue? They made rules and whatnot for people in Stormwind to follow. I want to say Arranax was around then as well? I could drop some more old school names from there, but I don't really know what happened to it as I kind of bailed when the game got relatively boring for me. I know it no longer exists.

I think people already claim "Hey I was with X" in game, such as fighting during the cataclysm and helping to take out primals, but no one expressly states they are the top whatever.

As I said before, I don't mind people claiming whatever as long as they can back it up. I've had people claim to be the best combat fighter and then do some weird sprint 20 yards, bounce off a wall, then sprint 20 yards back kind of wrestling rip-off move and armbar someone in the ground. They were using rolls, so of course the attack connected, but I prefer far more realism in my combat. Flashy fights are how you usually get your ass kicked, and I would expect someone that claims to be the top however percent to know that kind of thing. This may sound a tad cynical, but I don't really have that much faith in people these days.

Thank you for your clarification, though! Some of that may have been going on during my time there, but I honestly don't recall when I quit and how long I was around.

Kilieit · **09-21-2016, 03:06 PM**

I honestly still just think it's arrogant to assume yourself more suited to playing a certain role because of something you did that's completely unrelated to your skill as a roleplayer.

T13 world first doesn't magically make you amazing at roleplaying a war hero. And if you're spending so much time putting effort and practice into world-first-style raiding, then the time spent roleplaying is necessarily lesser than someone who spends the majority of their game-time on it.

Here's a hypothetical something I'd respect more:

A person takes the time and effort to assemble a group of adventurers who might have the in-character skill to enter the Binding Coil and investigate the recent disturbances. Over the next few weeks, they do regular RP sessions covering their adventures into the Coils, filming video or posting stories about them for others to share in. They take care to ensure the story is well-crafted and compelling, and that it has a personal spin on it to differentiate it from what the developers provided for them, while still remaining true to the heart of the original storyline. After a lot of in-character, on-screen time and effort, they finally arrive at their destination, and although some of their members faulter once or twice, they eventually pull through as a group and emerge victorious.

Man, if I'd seen something like that documented on the forums and one of the people approached me in-game, I'd totally roll with it - because I'd admire their creativity and dedication to roleplay. Far moreso than someone trying to use out-of-character achievements to influence in-character events.

Renault Delumiere · **09-21-2016, 03:09 PM**

(09-21-2016, 02:59 PM)Gegenji Wrote: ... I warned you I was getting rambly.

Not at all! I really enjoy your responses, as you give very well thought out reasons to back up your opinions.

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In-Game Achievement in Relation to a Character

RPC has moved! These pages have been kept for historical purposes