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Arashin Kujqai · **07-12-2017, 10:22 AM**

(07-12-2017, 06:49 AM)Valence Wrote:
(07-11-2017, 03:25 PM)Val Wrote: *snips*

Red Magic takes aether from the user like Thaumaturgy/Arcanima does yes. And like Conjury can. Or like a BLM or any WHM can. Red Magic however still remains a combination of Black and White magic, and as such, can draw upon the land like the former do. I don't have the specific quote under hand anymore from the RDM questline, but if I remember correctly it's said that RDM founders especially imposed upon themselves not to draw from the land: it is thus a self imposed constraint and not especially part of the mechanics behind the magic.

Just want to touch up on one thing here... Red magic isn't truly black or white magic, the combination is it's own being. So for a red mage of that time that decided to abandon one or the other for this new discipline, is capable of performing red magic but also would be capable of amplifying their power with ambient aether... But at that point, it would become black/white magic respectively again. If a red mage is casting Fire IV when he used to be a BLM, that probably counts as black magic and would be illegal since it's doing everything that a black mage would do, just putting itself under a new title. The difference therein lies which discipline is used, red magic in no means as what it is defined as, is "harmful" to the planet or your own being in any way.

Crossing the border of using ambient aether is really what sounds like is illegal or why it was banned. It's also the separation in the two disciplines since red magic just uses more basic and non-harmful spells but "accelerated". Verthunder is just a simple thunder but amplified a bit, no powerful void magicks or draining of any kind would be used. I guess my point here is, while it is self imposed, it's also what defined and created the discipline to be what it is. To do otherwise would just be the other two disciplines and thereby breaking it's own rules and the laws addressed respectively.

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Vokcas · **07-12-2017, 10:47 AM**

The way I see it. Red Mages are neither Black or White Mages. Conjury and Thaumaturgy belong to the White and Black School, the more powerful and more costly the skill in most cases these are referred to forbidden magic.

Black Mages & White Mages are not illegal however it's the magic they cast which is the issue. However because you pair the mages up with the spells, it is easier to say Black Mages are outlawed rather then these spells belonging to the Black Mage schools are.

To me Red Mages uses a mixture of Conjury & Thaumaturgy which is why it is considered allowed at this point in time giving the lack off evidence to say the craft is too dangerous. However because Conjury falls into the White Magic School and Thaumaturgy in the Black Magic School it is easier and correct in saying Red Mages uses Black and White magic.Â

Now the issue with Verholy and Verflare. Do we really have a idea how far up the Magic School food chain these are? We know that White Mages and Black Mages are able to use them but we have no knowledge of lesser mages studying the job school is able to. For example I would guess that the Lala's in the Thumaturge guild will be able to use Flare, yeah it would be costly to them but no doubt it would be possible.

However what makes Red Mages here different is how they cast, storing Aetheric Energy which they are able to use as a crutch. Â Pretty much a shortcut or work around if you will.

Gegenji · **07-12-2017, 11:02 AM**

(07-12-2017, 10:47 AM)Vokcas Wrote: The way I see it. Red Mages are neither Black or White Mages. Conjury and Thaumaturgy belong to the White and Black School, the more powerful and more costly the skill in most cases these are referred to forbidden magic.

Just a minor nitpick, but it's the other way around. Black Magic is an extension - a technique - to allow Thaumaturges to reach greater levels of power. A Thaumaturge's ability is limited by their own personal aether - as seen in the THM questline. Shatotto - who I believe suffered from a low aetheric well also, but am not certain - developed the technique to instead draw power from the planet instead of being forced to be limited to one's own... well, aetheric limits.

From this came the ability to cast bigger and more potent magicks, to call down the stars and move mountains. And thus Mhachi was able to wield a great arcane power, without really caring about how it would affect the planet.

The Elementals, to combat this, bequeathed Succor on the nation of Amdapor. Or those bequeathed the power became the nation of Amdapor, I don't exactly remember if the order of operations for this was ever explicitly stated. Conjury already drew power from the planet, but in small amounts and you were taught to return what you took. Succor, however, much like Black Magic (and thus, in my mind, is - again - a technique) draws far more aether to power their own greater spells.

... Though, do we know if Conjury came first? One could potentially argue that Conjury could have come afterward. A watered down version of White Magic, and the idea of "returning what you take" becoming part of the process specifically to prevent a repeat of the past? Might be worth digging into.

ANYWAY, Black and White clash... along with a third party that still uses their own personal aether, but also brings to the fore more tactical prowess rather than just raw aetheric power: Nym. This conflict is later known as the War of the Magi, and the amount of aether being drawn by Mhach and Amdapor risks killing the planet. In an attempt to end this, the Elementals intervene once more and in a much more final fashion - they flood the world.

... and a small group of refugees from both sides end up in the lands of Gyr Abania (via a ship you can actually visit IG)... and rightly decide that they probably shouldn't use the White and Black techniques anymore. Thus Red Magic is developed and we have the Red Mages we know and love today.

LiadansWhisper · **07-12-2017, 11:03 AM**

(07-12-2017, 10:47 AM)Vokcas Wrote: The way I see it. Red Mages are neither Black or White Mages. Conjury and Thaumaturgy belong to the White and Black School, the more powerful and more costly the skill in most cases these are referred to forbidden magic.

Black Mages & White Mages are not illegal however it's the magic they cast which is the issue. However because you pair the mages up with the spells, it is easier to say Black Mages are outlawed rather then these spells belonging to the Black Mage schools are.

To me Red Mages uses a mixture of Conjury & Thaumaturgy which is why it is considered allowed at this point in time giving the lack off evidence to say the craft is too dangerous. However because Conjury falls into the White Magic School and Thaumaturgy in the Black Magic School it is easier and correct in saying Red Mages uses Black and White magic.Â

Now the issue with Verholy and Verflare. Do we really have a idea how far up the Magic School food chain these are? We know that White Mages and Black Mages are able to use them but we have no knowledge of lesser mages studying the job school is able to. For example I would guess that the Lala's in the Thumaturge guild will be able to use Flare, yeah it would be costly to them but no doubt it would be possible.

However what makes Red Mages here different is how they cast, storing Aetheric Energy which they are able to use as a crutch. Â Pretty much a shortcut or work around if you will.

White Magic and Conjury are two entirely separate schools of magic. They are not related in any fashion, and Conjury has nothing to do with Red Magic, as far as I know.

Gegenji · **07-12-2017, 11:24 AM**

(07-12-2017, 11:03 AM)LiadansWhisper Wrote: White Magic and Conjury are two entirely separate schools of magic. They are not related in any fashion, and Conjury has nothing to do with Red Magic, as far as I know.

... Really? They're not related at all? I could've sworn they were.

And anyway, the RDM questline actually states one needs skill in Thaumaturgy and Conjury. I forget how many times, but I'm fairly certain it gets mentioned at the end of the level 70 capper quest where...

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So thaumaturgic and conjury...ic knowledge - and maintaining balance between them - is required to succeed as a RDM.

LiadansWhisper · **07-12-2017, 11:30 AM**

(07-12-2017, 11:24 AM)Gegenji Wrote: ... Really? They're not related at all? I could've sworn they were.

They are not. White Magic was developed by the Amdapor. During the time of the War of the Magi, Conjury didn't exist.

Conjury was taught to the Gelmorrans by the Moogles.

The only "relationship" between the two is that they both draw from ambient aether and they both can be used to heal. But they were developed/discovered independently. Neither falls under the "school" of the other.

Gegenji · **07-12-2017, 11:39 AM**

(07-12-2017, 11:30 AM)LiadansWhisper Wrote:
(07-12-2017, 11:24 AM)Gegenji Wrote: ... Really? They're not related at all? I could've sworn they were.

They are not. White Magic was developed by the Amdapor. During the time of the War of the Magi, Conjury didn't exist.

Conjury was taught to the Gelmorrans by the Moogles.

The only "relationship" between the two is that they both draw from ambient aether and they both can be used to heal. But they were developed/discovered independently. Neither falls under the "school" of the other.

Ah, right right right. I forgot that bit.

Though, that said, does that fact alone really mean they couldn't be connected? I mean, maybe the Moogles were taught Succor (or a weaker version of it) and what got effectively telephoned to the Gelmorrans (either because the Moogles were taught something weaker, they forgot details over the ages, or just wouldn't/couldn't provide a 100% transfer of knowledge) is what became known as Conjury?

Obviously, that's just personal musings and the reason why CNJ progresses so effortlessly into WHM (and uses all the same spell names and such) could just be a mechanical constraint of the game but... it makes one wonder, you know?

... Even if it's kind of moving off-topic. Though, that said... if I'm remembering the conversations from the RDM questline correctly... knowledge of Conjury is still apparently a good enough "substitute" to having access to Succor if they're not actually somehow related to one another. Otherwise, why would the mentor suggest one be skilled in an unrelated magic field? Unless the Red Mages adopted Conjury into the development of their Red Magic at some point.

***Teadrinker*** · **07-12-2017, 02:54 PM**

(07-11-2017, 11:54 PM)Valic Wrote:
(07-11-2017, 10:08 PM)Nero Wrote: Red magic isn't outlawed; as far as I can tell, it's just relatively rare (but not SO rare that you can't RP a red mage).

Weird thing is that the Red Mage trainer mentions being trained, but they make absolutely no mention of who trains them. Square Enix strikes again!
While they don't actually mention who exactly trains him, they do mention...

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RDM quest spoilerThe quests he makes it clear he was part of a small but well established order that was going along fine until the 50-60 bad guy killed them all. The techniques are also ancient and passed down, it's possible to self train from the sounds of how you start from the basics then get into studying/learning the sword techniques and etc passed down.

\

Lil bit of copy/paste from the same discord but, I'd say it's fair someone among the Crimson Duelists trained him.

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(07-12-2017, 10:47 AM)Vokcas Wrote: To me Red Mages uses a mixture of Conjury & Thaumaturgy which is why it is considered allowed at this point in time giving the lack off evidence to say the craft is too dangerous. However because Conjury falls into the White Magic School and Thaumaturgy in the Black Magic School it is easier and correct in saying Red Mages uses Black and White magic.

On a side note, I concur with this.

AFAIK They're described as using the 'fundamentals' of these two schools of magic in the questline. ((I'll prolly end up doing a loredump post on this.))

Additionally, I have already had someone approach one of my characters and say "I know both Black and White magic." It was uh...interesting.

Val · **07-12-2017, 03:27 PM**

(07-11-2017, 08:56 PM)LiadansWhisper Wrote:
(07-11-2017, 03:25 PM)Val Wrote: White magic takes from the elementals.

White Magic doesn't do this. It takes from the world, just like Black Magic. Which is the issue.

I know they need elemental approval or some bullshit, or that's how it was explained to me. Idk, I don't play boring classes :v

LiadansWhisper · **07-12-2017, 03:39 PM**

(07-12-2017, 03:27 PM)Val Wrote:
(07-11-2017, 08:56 PM)LiadansWhisper Wrote:
(07-11-2017, 03:25 PM)Val Wrote: White magic takes from the elementals.

White Magic doesn't do this. It takes from the world, just like Black Magic. Which is the issue.

I know they need elemental approval or some bullshit, or that's how it was explained to me. Idk, I don't play boring classes :v

Only to be taught the discipline.

Virella · **07-12-2017, 03:46 PM**

So let me get this right, RDM basically gets the Monk treatment?

You either RP the Chosen One by finding an older Red Mage to train you, or you are an 'older' Ala Mhigan who was trained back in the days?

Gegenji · **07-12-2017, 03:50 PM**

(07-12-2017, 03:46 PM)Virella Wrote: So let me get this right, RDM basically gets the Monk treatment?

You either RP the Chosen One by finding an older Red Mage to train you, or you are an 'older' Ala Mhigan who was trained back in the days?

Mmm. Not so much. There's texts apparently that describe Red Magic out there. You go looking around some ruins in Gyr Abania for some texts during one of the 60+ RDM quests.

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***Teadrinker*** · **07-12-2017, 04:12 PM**

(07-12-2017, 03:46 PM)Virella Wrote: So let me get this right, RDM basically gets the Monk treatment?

You either RP the Chosen One by finding an older Red Mage to train you, or you are an 'older' Ala Mhigan who was trained back in the days?

I don't know anything about Monks, they didn't interest me. (Gasp)

From where I stand, it's a lot more open to creative interpretation. The main questline focuses expressly on Red Boy Tia and his own little circle but it's never expressly said "The Crimson Duelists are the only RDM's." ((Disclaimer: I'm halfway through the line, correct me if need be. ))

And tbh even if it did it wouldn't make sense to me because that would mean whatever stash of "Ancient Texts" they found around the time of Theodoric would be the only and last info on Red Magic which would be very hard for me to believe considering it's borderline 'contemporary' if you consider the sheer scope of Eorzea's timelines.

Additionally, Red Boy Tia mentions the following:

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Ultimately, you have the same bit here that you have with a lot of jobs and soulstones. Study the lore, write the backstory, put in the effort, make it make sense.

Val · **07-12-2017, 04:15 PM**

(07-12-2017, 03:39 PM)LiadansWhisper Wrote:
(07-12-2017, 03:27 PM)Val Wrote:
(07-11-2017, 08:56 PM)LiadansWhisper Wrote:
(07-11-2017, 03:25 PM)Val Wrote: White magic takes from the elementals.

White Magic doesn't do this. It takes from the world, just like Black Magic. Which is the issue.

I know they need elemental approval or some bullshit, or that's how it was explained to me. Idk, I don't play boring classes :v

Only to be taught the discipline.

Aaaahh okay! That makes sense, then. Thanks Lia <3

LiadansWhisper · **07-12-2017, 04:31 PM**

(07-12-2017, 04:15 PM)Val Wrote:
(07-12-2017, 03:39 PM)LiadansWhisper Wrote:
(07-12-2017, 03:27 PM)Val Wrote:
(07-11-2017, 08:56 PM)LiadansWhisper Wrote:
(07-11-2017, 03:25 PM)Val Wrote: White magic takes from the elementals.

White Magic doesn't do this. It takes from the world, just like Black Magic. Which is the issue.

I know they need elemental approval or some bullshit, or that's how it was explained to me. Idk, I don't play boring classes :v

Only to be taught the discipline.

Aaaahh okay! That makes sense, then. Thanks Lia <3

I forgive you for calling my job boring. Angry

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