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Naunet · **08-10-2013, 06:48 PM**

Thank you.

I want to bring attention to Synae's request for input from anyone who wants to contribute to an open letter to Squee that will be translated into Japanese by her fiance and sent to them (as the language it's presented in will make it more likely that they will actually read it). So anyone who has any points they want to make, send Synaesthetic a PM! Even if you just want to sign it.

Also, in-game "protests" (perhaps themed gatherings) might help draw attention to the breadth of support this has amongst the ARR populace. It would need to happen well enough prior to the patch that SE could make changes to coding should they need to - and obviously, this would only be needed if they stick to what they've said and make marriage hetero-only. I'm thinking at least two weeks out from whenever 2.1 is released, if not more.

Aldeus · **08-10-2013, 06:56 PM**

Both great ideas that I heartily support.Â My FC has been discussing this topic at some length.Â A good portion of our members are part of the LGBT community (by coincidence not design), and I can say with certainty that the Knights of the Twelve stands firmly behind marriage equality in Eorzea.

Spiritual Machine · **08-10-2013, 09:34 PM**

A friend indicated to me that the relevant lore on this topic hadn't been brought up. It's a pretty big thread, so if this has already been posted, feel free to smack me on the nose or whatever you people* do.

*That is, roleplayers.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threa...post490835

Quote:

In general, how open-minded is the average Eorzean? (ex. Accept same-sex couples? Those who do not believe in the Twelve?)

Answer:Â Though many of the races experienced rocky pasts, currently, tolerance is, for the most part, the norm in Eorzea. The main reason behind this being that the region is a veritable melting pot of races who have worked together throughout recent history to survive the hardships thrust upon them. This does not mean that there are do not exist groups which are significantly more closed-minded. For example, while Gridania and Limsa Lominsa are fairly open about having dealings with the some of the more amicable beast tribes (such as the sylphs, goblins, and Qiqirn), the sultanate of Ul'dah are wary of the tribes, in part due to their prolonged conflict with the Amalj'aa.

So this seems like a green light or at least a "who cares" when it comes to homosexuality in Eorzea.

But I'd like to illuminate the subject further, since at least one person here named Western religion as the primary detractor for gay rights in the real world. Now, not only is that ironically biased, but it's ironically ignorant.

Final Fantasy XIV was produced in Japan. As in, 1% reported Christianity as of a 2008 survey.

So why are they stiffing gay folks? Because you don't have to be religious at all to not care about gay rights.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuali...dern_Japan

There's actually a cultural, ah, "shyness" about alternative sexuality in Japan. It's not really frowned on by the government or any particular group. It's just something that hasn't been spoken out about much until recently.

And you thought the United States was behind the times on progressive issues.

Oh, but it gets better. A gander over here, and...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Same-sex_marriage_in_Japan

Same-sex marriage is not legal in Japan. Again, mostly because not many people seem to be campaigning for it--not so much because people are directly opposed to it. I mean, maybe they are. I'm not well-studied on the subject, but...

Might be that Square Enix didn't add the option because most of their local customers didn't really want or care about the option, and not because they're homophobes.

So, I think it's best to at least check Wikipedia before you presume to understand the perspective and mindset behind a decision that offends you. After all, not every country is America.

Naunet · **08-10-2013, 10:12 PM**

(08-10-2013, 09:34 PM)Spiritual Machine Wrote: A friend indicated to me that the relevant lore on this topic hadn't been brought up. It's a pretty big thread, so if this has already been posted, feel free to smack me on the nose or whatever you people* do.

Thanks. I knew I'd seen that quote somewhere, but I couldn't remember well enough to go find it.

synaesthetic · **08-10-2013, 10:18 PM**

I'm getting sick of telling people this, their intent doesn't matter at all. It doesn't matter if they refuse to implement gay marriage because they don't care about it, or because they actually hate gay people.

The end result--gay couples being excluded from a part of the game simply because they are gay--is still discrimination. Their intent does not matter at all.

Spiritual Machine · **08-10-2013, 10:59 PM**

(08-10-2013, 10:18 PM)synaesthetic Wrote: I'm getting sick of telling people this, their intent doesn't matter at all. It doesn't matter if they refuse to implement gay marriage because they don't care about it, or because they actually hate gay people.

The end result--gay couples being excluded from a part of the game simply because they are gay--is still discrimination. Their intent does not matter at all.

Yeah, it does.

It matters in how you approach them. Because it's possible that they don't understand the thing that you are concerned about in the same way that you do.

Again, Japan isn't America, and in general you just can't expect someone to care about your opinions just because you get loud and obnoxious about them.

Understanding your target audience creates the foundation of a bridge by which you may lead them to understand your own perspective. That's how you change things.

No one is simply entitled to the consideration of another.

Naunet · **08-10-2013, 11:02 PM**

(08-10-2013, 10:59 PM)Spiritual Machine Wrote: It matters in how you approach them. Because it's possible that they don't understand the thing that you are concerned about in the same way that you do.

Pretty sure Synaesthetic's words were largely a reaction to the idea that the intent or lack of intent can somehow make something notÂ discrimination. Which, I think it's pretty clear that intent doesn't matter when it comes to identifying what is discrimination and what isn't.

Spiritual Machine · **08-10-2013, 11:15 PM**

(08-10-2013, 11:02 PM)Naunet Wrote:
(08-10-2013, 10:59 PM)Spiritual Machine Wrote: It matters in how you approach them. Because it's possible that they don't understand the thing that you are concerned about in the same way that you do.

Pretty sure Synaesthetic's words were largely a reaction to the idea that the intent or lack of intent can somehow make something notÂ discrimination. Which, I think it's pretty clear that intent doesn't matter when it comes to identifying what is discrimination and what isn't.

Pretty sure I never even used the word "discrimination" in my post. So I don't know what they're reacting to, really.

Whatever it is though, they're apparently getting sick of reacting to it!

Colyer · **08-10-2013, 11:23 PM**

(08-10-2013, 10:18 PM)synaesthetic Wrote: I'm getting sick of telling people this, their intent doesn't matter at all. It doesn't matter if they refuse to implement gay marriage because they don't care about it, or because they actually hate gay people.

The end result--gay couples being excluded from a part of the game simply because they are gay--is still discrimination. Their intent does not matter at all.

I am hesitant to say this since things are seeming to calm down but this statement does hit home for me, in a way.

Those are not the only two reasons for a company to make such a decision. A rational company will not use personal reasoning to make a decision. Companies such as the size of Square Enix employs probably entire floors of analyst for well, analyze the impacts both positive and negative of changing a product in any sort of manner.Â

It is completely possible for for Square Enix to get the final report that says that the most likely negative impact out weights the most likely positive. And in that case the decision to not make the change could be made without any personal feelings of malice or disrespect.

NOTE: I am not saying you can't disagree with the decision, I am not saying you can not voice you opinion or that the outcome isn't discriminatory.

All I am saying is that without proof, you can not make a statement that they did not include gay marriage solely due to not caring or hate as fact. Since it is entirely possible for such an outcome to come about, without any emotional interference by the decision makers.

synaesthetic · **08-10-2013, 11:57 PM**

Oh I know damn well why they chose to leave it out when the system launches. Because their analysts told them that they had a non-zero chance to lose money if they included it. I'm not an idiot, you know; I do know how business works, and the reason they plan to do this is entirely due to profit concerns.

I just think it's bullshit. I just think that if they're that concerned about not damaging the delicate sensibilities of bigots, then they should pay the price for being douchebags, even if the source of their douchery is avarice rather than homophobia.

Reppu · **08-11-2013, 12:06 AM**

Seeing as the uncalled for name-calling and insults are not subsiding from synaesthetic, as much as I may support the idea? I cannot support the individual putting it forward. There is too much of a likelihood for my name to be behind something that will be too far beyond my given limits.

I wish the effort lucks, however. But it seems nothing has changed.

The only outcome I see with attitudes like this, unfortunately?

[Image: Chrono-trigger-but-the-future-refused-to...00x225.jpg]

[Image: Chrono-trigger-but-the-future-refused-to...00x225.jpg]

DimmerMeerkat · **08-11-2013, 12:15 AM**

Is interracial marriage allowed?

Spiritual Machine · **08-11-2013, 12:17 AM**

(08-10-2013, 11:57 PM)synaesthetic Wrote: Oh I know damn well why they chose to leave it out when the system launches. Because their analysts told them that they had a non-zero chance to lose money if they included it. I'm not an idiot, you know; I do know how business works, and the reason they plan to do this is entirely due to profit concerns.

I just think it's bullshit. I just think that if they're that concerned about not damaging the delicate sensibilities of bigots, then they should pay the price for being douchebags, even if the source of their douchery is avarice rather than homophobia.

Oh, you are just a treat.

Keep on fighting presumptions with presumptions. I'll just take my sensible candor elsewhere.

shotgunbadger · **08-11-2013, 12:18 AM**

(08-11-2013, 12:15 AM)DimmerMeerkat Wrote: Is interracial marriage allowed?

Of course, if they discriminated against magic cat people Â it'd be terrible.

Naunet · **08-11-2013, 12:18 AM**

(08-11-2013, 12:06 AM)Reppu Wrote: Seeing as the uncalled for name-calling and insults are not subsiding from synaesthetic, as much as I may support the idea? I cannot support the individual putting it forward. There is too much of a likelihood for my name to be behind something that will be too far beyond my given limits.

That's exceedingly silly. Synae hasn't called anyone here names. What's more, why did you even need to make this post - just to call Synae out because you feel she's being overly aggressive on an internet forum about a topic she's passionate about? She's perfectly capable of wording very strong, coherent arguments, which she's done repeatedly in this thread.

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Arguments For Marriage Equality in Eorzea

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