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Ryanti · **08-14-2013, 06:32 AM**

(08-05-2013, 03:27 PM)Evie Wrote: Okay having done a bit more researchÂ it the Lore of this new world that I'm excited to RP in, I've noticed that in general story terms we have the Garleans as enemies for the most part and even have a Garleans who have switched sides, one example being the NPC Cid.

So there is an enemy for RP via the NPCs, but I was curious about IC villians. Are the anyone who are looking to be making their character ICly have a more villainous role? Or are most people just planning on using NPCs to full any RP story conflict?

The concept of a villain is usually handled in a different then any other character, whether that character be good or not. Usually in faction-restricted MMO's, there is a divisive good faction, and evil faction, which makes villainous mains a norm, and a real possibility.

However, FFXIV takes place on a single continent with an enemy continent. It's more along the lines of 'All player characters are part of the "good" faction." So the idea of a villain can't be made by saying, oh I'm just going to roll Garlean because obviously Garlemald is unreachable and you can't be on the Garlean faction in-game.

However, all worlds are in shades of grey. There is evil in Eorzea and good in Garlemald. Also, a villain is not to be confused with a pragmatic individual, or a total asshole. A total asshole can still be good.

Despite saying all that though, it would be irrational to create a villain character as a main in this game. Villainous characters are generally treated with hostility and antagonism in social settings. Their IC behavior also is against all in-game behavior Square technically wants you to do.

So, if you really want a villainous character, it's much easier to make an alt. That way, you are not perceived with the negative qualities of being a villain in the game 24/7. People will associate you with your good main.

Ryanti has a good heart, and he's good by nature, but he's far from a saint. He is as much in-depth as anyone can be. He has his good side, and he has that dark side of his mind that can be taken advantage of and warped due to where his life takes him. And that dark side can be really, really evil.

For as heavenly as Ryanti is, there is a side of him that's very, very evil. (I believe a few people have seen that side of him before in Phase 3.) It's truly up to the actions of others whether or not that side of him takes him over.

Relating to that (but not directly), Ryanti is an individual that respects the Garleans, and his curiosity tells him that they must have a reason for doing what they are doing; he is only against the Garleans because of their irrational means of achieving what they want to achieve, but he can find a lot of common ground with them. He has his temptations, his desires, his selfish needs and wants and musts. He has that pull.

Of course, any story isn't really complete without something to challenge the heroes, or threaten all which they are trying to accomplish. I haven't mentioned this much, but Ryanti (Not knowing this) has a Grandfather neck-deep in the Garlean Empire. He's his mother's father, and he is an extremely manipulative, selfish, apathetic, cold hearted, power hungry son of a bitch.

He is my third alt, but one I will not play in-game from the get go. He is my 'villain'. I have decided to utilize the strategy of writing his deeds separate from in-game and separate from Ryanti's life until the right moment comes. He will not be a direct influence in his life, or the lives of others that happen to get involved with Ryanti's business, but he is going to be an ever lasting presence in-game with everyone once I begin to utilize his character outside of private backstory involving Ryanti's business.

So that's what I'm doing.

moody · **08-15-2013, 05:13 AM**

I'll be honest. I love having Player 'adversaries' but that doesn't mean player 'villains'.Â

Someone else with goals at odds with mine is excellent. They can even have goals which would be viewed negatively by a majority of players.Â

When it goes beyond that to player 'villains' though... I've had bad experiences 90% of the time or more in most games including city of * where villains were a supported group.Â

Too many people think being a villain means being somehow evil for the sake of evil, and that creates an instantly 2 dimensional character in most cases. I've also noticed that hose who tend to want to make those characters just tend not to be the ones I want to RP with. That doesn't make it wrong, but there's my opinion.Â

I find characters who are 'good' from a different perspective much more interesting. One of the things that I feel a bit disappointed in by FFXIV is that from what I've seen the Garlean empire is just evil for its own sake.

I'm personally hoping that some depth and reasoning, as to why this drive to remove the Primals at the cost of destroying a large section of the world made sense to them, is revealed in the continuing plot line because 'to take over all the things' isn't a very good one. Now '[x] is slowly destroying out traditional way of life and in order to protect our identity we have to be able to stop it' is one. 'Primal forces being used by other nations run the risk of not decimating, but fully destroying the continent and great loss against utter destruction is a reasonably cost' would be another. Both are noble pursuits in and of themselves (protecting your culture or saving the world) but the cost is insane from the PC point of view.Â

;tldr PC villains tend to be done poorly (imo). Anti-heroes are interesting and those with opposing goals can be a lot of fun.

Jubilation · **08-15-2013, 07:45 AM**

Hello, returning RPer here ;p

Just thought I'de chime in and let semi interested parties know that the population of overly morally iffy people is about to go back up by one.

I do have experience playing very bad people, my originalÂ main character had a very odd outlook and had come to the conclusion that "all these disgusting people, running around in their filthy cities" need to be wiped off the continent so it can start anew...
Unfortunately once a PC goes off the deep end like that it's impossible to continue RPing with most people.

faceman7381 · **08-17-2013, 10:11 AM**

Those of you interested in playing an evil character as a lead villain to an adventuring group, I would like to talk to you.

Please contact me.

Bloodwillow · **08-17-2013, 08:01 PM**

(08-05-2013, 03:50 PM)Tyriont Wrote: In my case, this role is fulfilled by an alt. Â The primary antagonist of Ty's story is Denavial Calgar, which has been the case since I created those characters in FFXI. Â The problem with using a main as a villain is that you find very quickly that nobody wants to hang out with you IC because...well, you're evil. Â An alt allows you to have those villainous interactions without limiting your RP options.

As a side note, I'm seriously considering maintaining two accounts this time around so I can have Den and Ty interact directly >.> Â Did that a bit in FFXI and it worked well and was a LOT of fun for me - and I'd like to think others as well.

When I played LoTRO my main was a villain character. Â It is a VERY small minority of who wishes to always be evil as such ...

Which led me to getting burned out and quitting. Â Way too much drama (pulled from IC into OOC) I never got left alone in any RP or OOC setting ...

Granted, I would love to do a naughty deed here and there, I'm all up for it. Â But I gues it's how receptive others are. Â In games like this, I think most if not all people who play, want to be the hero.

I would be more than interested to look into anything if a person wanted to make such a guild. Â We could waylay willing people's caravans ... steal things .. etc. Â Communication is the key!

Cato · **08-22-2013, 01:06 AM**

I'd find it very satisfying to be able to interact with a villain and forge some sort of long term rivalry if at all possible. I've a preference for tragic villains with realistic motives. My own character is a redeemed ex-mercenary who set aside his lust for profit when his mercenary band was betrayed from within - an act that robbed him of his closest friend and led him to raise his lance to defend those who required his aid.

It'd be particularly compelling to see how Theodric would react to a villainous individual seeking to tempt him back down his former path, though I'm fairly flexible in regards to what I'm up for. I know from experience how difficult it can be to find solid role-play as a villain, especially when the 'good guys' believe they should win at every turn and overcome all odds put before them.

FreelanceWizard · **08-22-2013, 01:26 AM**

(08-22-2013, 01:06 AM)Theodric Ridgefield Wrote: I know from experience how difficult it can be to find solid role-play as a villain, especially when the 'good guys' believe they should win at every turn and overcome all odds put before them.

Well, I'd gently suggest that you can't much blame them, since in typical narrative structures, the bad guys lose to the good guys, after they overcome all odds. Smile

Ultimately, the villain -- the antagonist -- loses, as its narrative purpose is to provide opposition to the heroes and act as a foil. That's one of the major issues, I think, with playing a villain full time; the scriptwriter isn't nominally supposed to be on your side in the story, and always losing in the end (even if you win now and then) can get a little old. In a story, this is no big deal, but in an MMO? It kinda sucks. Smile

About the only way I've seen villainous interactions with full time "bad guy" PCs work well and in a rewarding way for everyone is for there to be a more or less planned "tit for tat" between two groups with a constant source of conflict, which can but doesn't have to be a classic good versus evil morality conflict. In this case, the "heroes" can legitimately be viewed as "villains" from the ostensible villains' perspective. Narratively, they are; the two opposing groups might as well be called Red Team and Blue Team, with each side acting as the villain in the other's stories. Of course, this requires a lot of commitment and both sides having a willingness to lose.

As a side note, there's a fine line between being a villain and merely being evil. Villainy is a narrative construct; evil is a construct of morality in a particular social system. A character can be evil without being the villain of any particular PC narrative. That's how you end up with "Team Evil" in games like EverQuest. Smile

Cato · **08-22-2013, 01:36 AM**

(08-22-2013, 01:26 AM)FreelanceWizard Wrote:
(08-22-2013, 01:06 AM)Theodric Ridgefield Wrote: I know from experience how difficult it can be to find solid role-play as a villain, especially when the 'good guys' believe they should win at every turn and overcome all odds put before them.

Well, I'd gently suggest that you can't much blame them, since in typical narrative structures, the bad guys lose to the good guys, after they overcome all odds. Ultimately, the villain -- the antagonist -- loses, as its narrative purpose is to provide opposition to the heroes and act as a foil. That's one of the major issues, I think, with playing a villain full time; the scriptwriter isn't nominally supposed to be on your side in the story, and always losing in the end (even if you win now and then) can get a little old. In a story, this is no big deal, but in an MMO? It kinda sucks.

About the only way I've seen villainous interactions with full time "bad guy" PCs work well and in a rewarding way for everyone is for there to be a more or less planned "tit for tat" between two groups with a constant source of conflict, which can but doesn't have to be a classic good versus evil morality conflict. In this case, the "heroes" can legitimately be viewed as "villains" from the ostensible villains' perspective. Narratively, they are; the two opposing groups might as well be called Red Team and Blue Team, with each side acting as the villain in the other's stories. Of course, this requires a lot of commitment and both sides having a willingness to lose.

As a side note, there's a fine line between being a villain and merely being evil. Villainy is a narrative construct; evil is a construct of morality in a particular social system. A character can be evil without being the villain of any particular PC narrative. That's how you end up with "Team Evil" in games like EverQuest.

Heh, that's precisely why I'm rather eager to tie in a 'villain' with my own character's ongoing story. I often find myself sympathising with the plight of many 'villains' to the point where my friends joke about me being on their side! To use a few examples, I'm pretty fond of Scar, Cersei Lannister and Shane Walsh from the Lion King, Game of Thrones and the Walking Dead respectively. Many brush them off as the 'bad guys' due to their actions, but I enjoy recognising why they act the way they do and coming to understand what makes them tick.Â

Hopefully I'm not rambling too much, but in short I don't mind compromising with a well role-played 'villain', especially on a long term basis.

Qhora Bajihri · **08-22-2013, 01:42 AM**

Is it bad to say I love losing? That's part of why I like playing a villain, other than they get the best lines, wear the best costumes, have the best plotlines, are smarter and more attracti--you get the idea. But when my horrible maniacal plans are foiled, the world has been made a better place and the heroes are finally given a chance to actually feel like heroes! And that gives me (the player) warm fuzzies, though I'm sure my character is angrily shaking his fist.

Obviously, getting rid of me entirely isn't an option. The villains never die. They just spend a little time in Arkham.

Knowing that FFXIV isn't letting us play the bad guys, I've shifted my character to a more neutral, less downright lunatic kind of evil, but I still expect to have a great deal of fun as a source of antagonism whenever the setting is right.

Cersei ain't got nothin' on Ramsay Bolton, mmhm.

LandStander · **08-22-2013, 02:05 AM**

(08-15-2013, 05:13 AM)moody Wrote: I'll be honest. I love having Player 'adversaries' but that doesn't mean player 'villains'.Â

Someone else with goals at odds with mine is excellent. They can even have goals which would be viewed negatively by a majority of players.Â

When it goes beyond that to player 'villains' though... I've had bad experiences 90% of the time or more in most games including city of * where villains were a supported group.Â

Too many people think being a villain means being somehow evil for the sake of evil, and that creates an instantly 2 dimensional character in most cases. I've also noticed that hose who tend to want to make those characters just tend not to be the ones I want to RP with. That doesn't make it wrong, but there's my opinion.Â

I find characters who are 'good' from a different perspective much more interesting. One of the things that I feel a bit disappointed in by FFXIV is that from what I've seen the Garlean empire is just evil for its own sake.

I'm personally hoping that some depth and reasoning, as to why this drive to remove the Primals at the cost of destroying a large section of the world made sense to them, is revealed in the continuing plot line because 'to take over all the things' isn't a very good one. Now '[x] is slowly destroying out traditional way of life and in order to protect our identity we have to be able to stop it' is one. 'Primal forces being used by other nations run the risk of not decimating, but fully destroying the continent and great loss against utter destruction is a reasonably cost' would be another. Both are noble pursuits in and of themselves (protecting your culture or saving the world) but the cost is insane from the PC point of view.Â

;tldr PC villains tend to be done poorly (imo). Anti-heroes are interesting and those with opposing goals can be a lot of fun.

Wall of Text Alert!

In regards with the Garlean thing I don't think they have chalked them up for being evil for no reason. Say if Canadians started invading the US and you lived in the US. It didn't matter what the Canadian's reason for invading was, it was evil in your eyes because they were killing people you knew and taking your land. I think the same is true with the Garleans. They are military technological powerhouse who is invading countries because they are imperialist who want more power and land *cough* (America).

Now about bringing down an entire moon to literally wipe out all life in Eorzea. Think of the atomic bomb or about the massive amounts of chemicals that the US used in Vietnam that destroyed almost all life where it was sprayed. These tactics are used because they are less soldier costly and it is easier to tame a smaller population or a population and army in fear.Â

I had a nice discussion about villains with an old friend of mine about a year back. She didn't understand why characters became villains in real life or games. Though we don't normally get to see why they become villains in games and movies (except with rare cases like Sephiroth), but it seems to be that something traumatic happened and they choose a different way of dealing it than most people. I was watching a documentary the other day about a 16 year old girl who was being tried for murder. She actually seemed like a completely normal person, but apparently in her life she bounced around from abusive foster parents who always "treated her nicely at first, but then turned out to be abusive". This gave her the idea that everyone in the world was the same way and so she always expected someone to do something horrible to her. These experiences created the reality around her.Â

Another interesting thing is just some people are just horrible people (for whatever reason). I was reading a story about a guy who was arrested for drinking in public (which is strange to me because I live in Vegas and there is like 2 or 3 places to buy liquor at every corner). They brought him in to the station, but let him go on a citation. When he left the police station he stole an ambulance. The cops knew who he was and just waited for him at his house where they arrested him and his excuse was "I didn't feel like f***ing walking". Now common sense would tell someone that this is a very wrong thing to do, but for whatever reason, this guy totally lacks that factor that compels him to obey the moral code set in his culture. There are even people who do horrible things because it makes them feel better about themselves or makes them feel powerful and in control. Its sick, but its the way some people tick.Â

While I agree with a lot of what you say, I find the opposite true of good characters. I am pulling this number out of my ass, but it seems like 90% of the RP population in any MMO is "good" whether that is neutral, chaotic good, or whatever, and that just seems dull to me as none of them do horrible things just because they can. People power trip all the time. It gets boring saving lives, paying taxes, and obeying the law. My main gripe with hero and good characters is that there is never any real challenge to them (in games and movies). They always win because they are good and are always expected to win. It could be why I love shows like Attack on Titan and Game of Thrones. It shows that no matter what your moral standing is, no one is safe from death.

I think I really got into RPing because it was a chance for me to leave my shoes and experience someone else's life through their eyes. Though I know my own personality mixes with the characters I play, sometimes on accident, sometimes on purpose. Maybe it is why I enjoy playing villains so much. I think I am an extremely nice person in real life to the point that I put myself into horrible positions just to save someone the trouble and stress (which I think some people can also relate to), but I think that chance to actually try to view the world through another is an amazing experience that no one should pass up...

I am going off track now...What were we originally talking about now? Whatever, RP for life!!Â Thumbsup

Asyria · **08-22-2013, 02:19 AM**

The thing with villains being supposed to lose is... it's not always true. Far from it.

As far as I'm concerned, you have 3 types of villains.

1- The Villain Of The Day/Week. That's the guy who shows up to do evil deeds and gets foiled by the heroes in one or two ecnounters.
Fun to RP now and then I guess, but you're going to lose for sure. Tongue

Example: Watch Sailor Moon. >.>

2- The Villain Who Always Gets Foiled... For Now. That guy is similar to the Villain Of The Day/Week, except... he's not just there once to be defeated. No. He's the guy who loses the battle, but not the war. He always comes back with a "better" plan that somehow gets foiled againÂ
Could be fun too, I guess... but those tend to be more of a campy enemy.
Example: Watch Inspector Gadget or He Man or whatever (I did say campy)

3- The Villain Who's Just Too Damn Good To Bother Killing You. He's the real deal. You'll foil his plans and he'll be like meh... I'll deal with you another time. Or... meh, I'll leave you to my minions. Fighting them before the end of the movie/serie/game/whatever would just be suicide... or humiliating defeat that drives you to improve yourself.
This type of villain has the most potential for RP, I think.
Ironically, he's rarely ever played because everyone else thinks the person is powergaming even if that's the whole point.
Example: Your favorite villain, most likely (unless he's a type 2 Tongue

)

Alternating 2 and 3 could be done too. Sometimes the villains has the upper hand because of his MacGuffin of Doom but sometimes the heroes catch him off-guard or saw through his dastardly plans and came prepared.

Also!

Another villain type to think about is the Turncloak. And there's two types of them, of course.

1- The Good Going Evil. That's the hero who suffered so much that the only way he can deal with it is to blacken his heart and either join the enemy or go evil on his own. Either way, he'll turn against his previous ally. Or it could be that his goals simply conflict with his previous allies' after a certain event. Or he could be seduced by the enemy. Or mind-controlled. Or anything.

2- The Evil Turning Good. This can happen in pretty much the same way as the first type, except reverse. The heroes have shown honor and mercy to him despite all he's done (helps if he had been raised believing the 'enemy' had no such concepts as honor and mercy and so he now sees the truth). Or he finds that to achieve his own goal, he must join forces with the heroes (If one Evil who wishes to rule the world works for or with one who wants to destroy it but never said so... and the former finds out.. well, he'll want to take him out. can't rule what's been destroyed). Or he could fall in love with the hero (Ohh myyy). Or whatever.

Chakha Malqir · **08-22-2013, 02:44 AM**

If nudged properly, Virgil could end up being very villainous. While he loves Eorzea and Limsa Lominsa, he does not condone blind hatred and the slaughter of lives when alternative methods could easily be utilized.

The way many have spoken of the Sahagin, the Goblins, and some of the other beast races is downright cruel and arguably bigoted in nature. Indeed, they may worship the Primals rather than The Twelve, but to kill them over something so trivial is foolishness, though Virgil turns a blind eye to it because he can empathize with the Eorzean fear of the Primals.

However, if he were sent to take out a group of one of the beast races and there end up being innocents in the area of one of those beast races, he will likely defend them rather than defeat them. To harm innocent life, even if it is of the beast races, is wrong. With unintelligent life, it is justified in that it is hunting for food and materials. But hunting life that is clearly intelligent and sentient just because views on religion are not the same... that is despicable.

For the greater good of all, he would sooner fight to defend all innocent goblins, sahagin, and others, as their persecution is what drives the conflict when diplomacy and negotiations for peace would cause much fewer losses of life. The beast races summon their Primals not out of blind devotion, but out of fear of humanity! Of that, I am absolutely certain. How else would one explain why the sagely Ramuh despises humanity so? Because humanity is a conquering force.

If given the wrong series of pushes from the wrong people, he would perform a face-heel turn against the adventurers in order to force the Eorzean government to hear his pleas for peace talks.

LiadansWhisper · **08-22-2013, 03:44 AM**

This is a really interesting thread! Â I hope no one minds if I add my thoughts on the subject. Â Smile

I have to say that some of the best RP I've ever had has been with villainous characters. Â To this day, I still think back on a storyline I happened to get involved with (not intentionally!) that pitted my Dawnbringer of Lathander against a High Priest of Bane. Â It completely changed my character forever, and was some of the best RP I have ever had the good fortune and privilege to be a part of. Â Ever.

With that said, I rarely see evil done really well. Â One thing that can be especially troubling is that in a "Lawful Good" setting - that is, a setting where the default "alignment" is assumed to be good, and most people have "good intentions" - open evil won't work. Â Open evil will simply be united against and destroyed, no matter how cool the concept is. Â So for evil to work in an environment where most people are of a goodly (or at least not evil) bent, it has to be subtle.

But it's hard to do subtle evil. Â You have to work with people who are mature, and who completely understand the difference between In Character and Out of Character. Â What's more, the evil character has to be extremely vigilant about Metagaming (i.e. magically knowing things about another character that your character wouldn't have any way of knowing), and in moderated games, generally needs Moderator/Storyteller/Dungeonmaster assistance in tamping down both intentional cheating an unintentional slips.

As you can probably imagine, this is really freaking hard to do in a moderated setting. Â It's even more crazy sauce when you try to do it in an unmoderated setting where information can often spread like wildfire, and it can be impossible to track down the source of a rumor to verify whether the person who started it actually had the information to do so.

But it can work! Â It absolutely can! Â I've seen it done! Â It just requires two things that a lot of people are unwilling to to do.

The first is trust.

You have to trust your fellow players. Â You have to believe that they are as interested in you having fun as you are interested in them having fun. Â Roleplay is a mutual story between multiple people. Â It's not a win or lose game. Â When we roleplay, we're engaging in mutual storytelling with the goal of our own personal enjoyment, and the enjoyment of our fellow roleplayers. Â But it is so easy to begin to wonder about the motives of another person when they do something that you or your character don't like. Â It isn't necessarily a sign of immaturity when you balk at something out of worry. Â It's human nature. Â "Hey man, this dude is totally screwing my character over. Â This is so not fair! Â He must hate me!"

Yeah but...he doesn't. Â It's just a game. Â It's just a story. Â And you're both just trying to tell it.

Trust is hard, but it's possible if you keep the lines of communication open. Â I firmly believe if you have a serious problem with a situation, you should speak to the other people involved and try to resolve it to the happiness of all concerned. Â Maybe something about the situation really bothers you. Â Maybe you just didn't want your character to be changed in a particular way. Â Maybe you're confused about how to play it out. Â Etc. Â That's all fine, and completely normal. Â But this brings up the other big thing about engaging in RP with a villainous character.

You have to be willing to lose.

I know, I know - this isn't a competition, and you can't win at RP. Â But you can lose a lot during RP. Â Your freedom. Â Your livelihood. Â Your powers. Â Your appearance. Â Hell, you can lose your mind and a number of other things. And yes, that includes your life. Â If you are RPing with someone of an evil bent, there's a high likelihood that you're going to lose at something, because that's what generally happens when good meets evil - someone loses.

Now "losing" doesn't necessarily mean the end of your character. Â Because loss can spark further character growth, and every end is really just a new beginning. Â I would be the first to admit, however, that I have had characters so radically changed by a storyline that I ended up dropping them after a certain point because they were so far away from where they were intended to be that I lost interest. Â As a matter of fact, that's what ultimately happened to my Dawnbringer (though not because of the Banite). Â But that is a risk that you take when you deal with someone who is evil. Â And for that matter, that is the risk that every evil character takes every time they interact with someone else. Â The thing is, evil characters are usually the ones who lose, whether fairly or unfairly. Â So the losing aspect goes both ways.

In the end, though, a well-played evil character is amazing to RP with. Â I happen to really enjoy the byplay of light against dark, so this may be personal bias. Â But I have really found that as long as I keep those lines of communication, and keep remembering that we're just telling a story together, the RP normally ends up being fantastic.

Honestly, I'd like to see some well-played evils out there. Â The most dangerous, most terrifying evil is the one you never realize is evil because they're so good at doing all the right things. Â The second most terrifying evil? Â The one that's convinced he or she is doing the right thing.

Anyway, just my $0.02. Â Hope I didn't ramble too much! Smile

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Villians and RP conflict

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