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C'io Behkt · **09-12-2013, 01:56 AM**

(09-12-2013, 01:46 AM)DAISHI Wrote: Let me take it the other direction. If very RPer claims to kills Primals then regardless of in game Lore, my character would cease to be impressed. I'd have a casual indifference to the cla because everyone I know kills Primals. I'd be like... Ok so what. Because role players have de facto already created an alternative lore on the basis of their overwhelming claims. This is a problem you the individual role player didn't intend to create, but is almost inevitable if multitudes can make the claim.

However, in the case of Ifrit, nobody has created an alternative lore. It is CANON that there is a list maintained by the Immortal Flames of people who have defeated Ifrit.

And if we play math, say we have 3 x 128 RPers on Balmung. That's 384 (or 3 full linkshells). Say we divide that 384 equally among each of the 9 Jobs and assign 1/9th to Summoners with Ifrit. That's 42 people. 42 people on an entire continent claiming to have beat Ifrit is not even close to "multitudes"; instead, they are the outliers, rare.

Sigyn Shieldbreaker · **09-12-2013, 01:57 AM**

(09-12-2013, 01:46 AM)DAISHI Wrote: Let me take it the other direction. If very RPer claims to kills Primals then regardless of in game Lore, my character would cease to be impressed. I'd have a casual indifference to the cla because everyone I know kills Primals. I'd be like... Ok so what. Because role players have de facto already created an alternative lore on the basis of their overwhelming claims. This is a problem you the individual role player didn't intend to create, but is almost inevitable if multitudes can make the claim.

-If- being the keyword.

The majority of people in this thread have said, more or less, that they haven't and wouldn't do it themselves even if they don't have a problem with it happening.

Likely, the majority of RPers in FFXIV will feel the same way.

Oroban · **09-12-2013, 02:01 AM**

But...them being defeated is part of lore. How can you say what parts of established lore you'll follow, and which you won't? I mean, yes, they're presented as nigh insurmountable forces of nature, but it's established that it can, and HAS, happened in the past, oft repeatedly. My biggest question is if you're going to allow gameplay things like the egis as proof that a PC can defeat them, why can't someone say that because the game's main story said they solo'd Ifrit, they did? The problem with drawing the line in the middle is that everyone has a different idea of exactly what the middle is, especially once you start mingling gameplay concepts with conceptual and lore concepts.

Aleister · **09-12-2013, 02:06 AM**

(09-12-2013, 02:01 AM)Oroban Wrote: But...them being defeated is part of lore. How can you say what parts of established lore you'll follow, and which you won't? I mean, yes, they're presented as nigh insurmountable forces of nature, but it's established that it can, and HAS, happened in the past, oft repeatedly. My biggest question is if you're going to allow gameplay things like the egis as proof that a PC can defeat them, why can't someone say that because the game's main story said they solo'd Ifrit, they did? The problem with drawing the line in the middle is that everyone has a different idea of exactly what the middle is, especially once you start mingling gameplay concepts with conceptual and lore concepts.

I generally don't let gameplay stuff conflict my RP until say a summon ICly summons the ifrit-egi. I think going by anything from the storyline is crossing the borderline for me.. Cause that is the hero of light's storyline..

C'io Behkt · **09-12-2013, 02:09 AM**

(09-12-2013, 02:06 AM)Aleister Wrote:
(09-12-2013, 02:01 AM)Oroban Wrote: But...them being defeated is part of lore. How can you say what parts of established lore you'll follow, and which you won't? I mean, yes, they're presented as nigh insurmountable forces of nature, but it's established that it can, and HAS, happened in the past, oft repeatedly. My biggest question is if you're going to allow gameplay things like the egis as proof that a PC can defeat them, why can't someone say that because the game's main story said they solo'd Ifrit, they did? The problem with drawing the line in the middle is that everyone has a different idea of exactly what the middle is, especially once you start mingling gameplay concepts with conceptual and lore concepts.
I generally don't let gameplay stuff conflict my RP until say a summon ICly summons the ifrit-egi. I think going by anything from the storyline is crossing the borderline for me.. Cause that is the hero of light's storyline..

I tend to not take from the Main Hero of Light's storyline either. From what I understand, very few people intend to. Even C'io's story of how she defeated Ifrit is very, very different.

DAISHI · **09-12-2013, 02:10 AM**

Wait, now previous evidence is being asked to be submitted on an at whims basis. We only formerly made the claim that the egi evidence. If so then my character observes the ease of a Primals defeat on the basis of sight as well as word. Then every person I see with one would be evidence. Meaning that it is actually as easy as I would take it, GIVEN that this very thread has submitted the egi must be evidence. You cannot ask it to be evidence only when requested or role play will have no logical internal consistency.

Aleister · **09-12-2013, 02:17 AM**

(09-12-2013, 02:10 AM)DAISHI Wrote: Wait, now previous evidence is being asked to be submitted on an at whims basis. We only formerly made the claim that the egi evidence. If so then my character observes the ease of a Primals defeat on the basis of sight as well as word. Then every person I see with one would be evidence. Meaning that it is actually as easy as I would take it, GIVEN that this very thread has submitted the egi must be evidence. You cannot ask it to be evidence only when requested or role play will have no logical internal consistency.

No-no.. I will not even bother with the egi gameplay thing unless the RPer who has it has stated its existence ICly.. Same goes for mini-pets as well. I believe gameplay stuff should stay out of RP unless brought into the RP session by the character but that is just me. RP addons would help on knowing if the RPer has a egi or a minion following them about like the ones in WoW but sadly we don't have those yet. (Though I will never accept ICly someone having a baby behemoth.. >_> cause I'm pretty sure.. give it a hour the momma is gonna come destroying a city, amirite?)

DAISHI · **09-12-2013, 02:22 AM**

I find this topic fascinating. Good debates are arousing.

KitKat · **09-12-2013, 02:36 AM**

(09-12-2013, 02:17 AM)Aleister Wrote:
(09-12-2013, 02:10 AM)DAISHI Wrote: Wait, now previous evidence is being asked to be submitted on an at whims basis. We only formerly made the claim that the egi evidence. If so then my character observes the ease of a Primals defeat on the basis of sight as well as word. Then every person I see with one would be evidence. Meaning that it is actually as easy as I would take it, GIVEN that this very thread has submitted the egi must be evidence. You cannot ask it to be evidence only when requested or role play will have no logical internal consistency.
No-no.. I will not even bother with the egi gameplay thing unless the RPer who has it has stated its existence ICly.. Same goes for mini-pets as well. I believe gameplay stuff should stay out of RP unless brought into the RP session by the character but that is just me. RP addons would help on knowing if the RPer has a egi or a minion following them about like the ones in WoW but sadly we don't have those yet. (Though I will never accept ICly someone having a baby behemoth.. >_> cause I'm pretty sure.. give it a hour the momma is gonna come destroying a city, amirite?)

I don't have any opinion on the summoner/primal stuff (I see arguments both for and against using them in RP), but as for the minion pets, I like to think of all of them as windup clockworks. Many of them are already listed as windups. So that Baby Behemoth is actually just a toy.

Aleister · **09-12-2013, 02:39 AM**

(09-12-2013, 02:36 AM)TheCurls Wrote:
(09-12-2013, 02:17 AM)Aleister Wrote:
(09-12-2013, 02:10 AM)DAISHI Wrote: Wait, now previous evidence is being asked to be submitted on an at whims basis. We only formerly made the claim that the egi evidence. If so then my character observes the ease of a Primals defeat on the basis of sight as well as word. Then every person I see with one would be evidence. Meaning that it is actually as easy as I would take it, GIVEN that this very thread has submitted the egi must be evidence. You cannot ask it to be evidence only when requested or role play will have no logical internal consistency.
No-no.. I will not even bother with the egi gameplay thing unless the RPer who has it has stated its existence ICly.. Same goes for mini-pets as well. I believe gameplay stuff should stay out of RP unless brought into the RP session by the character but that is just me. RP addons would help on knowing if the RPer has a egi or a minion following them about like the ones in WoW but sadly we don't have those yet. (Though I will never accept ICly someone having a baby behemoth.. >_> cause I'm pretty sure.. give it a hour the momma is gonna come destroying a city, amirite?)

I don't have any opinion on the summoner/primal stuff (I see arguments both for and against using them in RP), but as for the minion pets, I like to think of all of them as windup clockworks. Many of them are already listed as windups. So that Baby Behemoth is actually just a toy.

Very good point.. didn't think it as that! Phew! Don't gotta worry about that momma behemoth smashing a city now! :p

Ashren Dotharl · **09-12-2013, 07:45 AM**

Keep in mind that Ifrit and Garuda were around during 1.0 as well which meant there were plenty of chances to defeat them before even the Battle of Carteneau, the current storyline merely suggests that no one has really managed to defeat Garuda since the Warriors of Light disappeared, though...

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FreelanceWizard · **09-12-2013, 09:00 AM**

(09-12-2013, 02:09 AM)Cio Behkt Wrote: I tend to not take from the Main Hero of Light's storyline either. From what I understand, very few people intend to. Even C'io's story of how she defeated Ifrit is very, very different.

I would argue that a very vocal group of RPers on this forum has indicated that they ignore all story (and thus lore) from the main scenario quest, but that in aggregate, they're a minority. The majority of RPers most likely take from the MSQ generic bits, pieces, and themes that can apply to any character and that they feel fit their character concept -- such as, say, defeating one or more Primals in battle, having the Echo, having an airship pass, working for the Scions, or joining a Grand Company.

@Aleister: The lore is quite clear that Primals are being summoned and defeated on a regular basis, with the rate of summoning increasing, and that this is a growing problem for Eorzea that multiple groups are attempting to solve (and some are using adventurers to try to solve). I don't think it's wise to take the stance IC that "all these adventurers making such claims must be liars or insane," despite the fact that PCs are in fact the rare, elite adventurers, because then you're the character making the claim contradictory to lore. It would be like playing in a superhero MMO where powerful villains are regularly captured and escape, then claiming that anyone who says they captured a villain who subsequently escaped must be a liar or nuts, because clearly they'd be outclassed in that fight.

EDIT: It occurs to me that I should probably clarify my statement about the MSQ. When I say "generic bits, pieces, and themes," I refer to the end results, not necessarily the exact way the MSQ portrays it happening. For instance, you may defeat Ifrit in some totally different way, get an airship pass by pickpocketing someone with one, or not even know you have the Echo -- you just know you can't be Tempered for some reason. That's what I mean by being "generic." Smile

Lament · **09-12-2013, 11:53 AM**

(09-12-2013, 01:51 AM)C Wrote:
(09-12-2013, 01:44 AM)Aleister Wrote: Egi is kind of the proof right there which you can't really go saying "I DUN'T BELIEVE YOU."

Right? Which I know will bring me at odds against my belief that taking down Titan or Garuda would be a much more Herculean effort than taking down Ifrit. I actually don't know yet how I'll handle someone showing me Titan-egi or Garuda-egi, -_-.

That's part of why I reserve the right to not RP if I think someone's pushing the canon too far (for my personal tastes). The lore is there, yes, and people will choose to follow it to varying degrees. We all have our little headcanons of how things related to our characters actually work - one summoner's take on canon may be different from the next, so it would boil down to incompatible RP.

If you play a SMN who would, logically, keep track of when Titan and Garuda show up, and then suddenly another RPer comes up and their character makes contradictory claims to that knowledge, providing IC proof (in this case the egi)... you can just choose to disregard that particular interaction.

When joining a group with a joint storyline, though, these things should probably be discussed beforehand so everyone is on the same page. It wouldn't do for the group to have established that their particular headcanon is that Titan and Garuda have been out of reach for decades, and then a 20 year old SMN joins the group with both egi and starts showing them off, disregarding what was previously agreed on.

For me it's similar to like... someone's character having the Echo and proving it by knowing things that you've revealed about your own character OOC, but not IC. Yes, someone with the Echo *could* find out, but if you don't want that to happen, nobody can force it on your character just because it's doable in-game.

C'io Behkt · **09-12-2013, 12:10 PM**

(09-12-2013, 07:45 AM)Ashren Snow Wrote: Keep in mind that Ifrit and Garuda were around during 1.0 as well which meant there were plenty of chances to defeat them before even the Battle of Carteneau, the current storyline merely suggests that no one has really managed to defeat Garuda since the Warriors of Light disappeared, though...

This is an excellent point, particularly since we live on a Legacy server. In the 15 years after the lifting of the veil on Silvertear Lake, ample opportunities may have existed before the Beastmen really refined their methods of summoning. This also lends credence to the depth of the list maintained by the Immortal Flames.

(09-12-2013, 09:00 AM)FreelanceWizard Wrote: I would argue that a very vocal group of RPers on this forum has indicated that they ignore all story (and thus lore) from the main scenario quest, but that in aggregate, they're a minority. The majority of RPers most likely take from the MSQ generic bits, pieces, and themes that can apply to any character and that they feel fit their character concept -- such as, say, defeating one or more Primals in battle, having the Echo, having an airship pass, working for the Scions, or joining a Grand Company.

EDIT: It occurs to me that I should probably clarify my statement about the MSQ. When I say "generic bits, pieces, and themes," I refer to the end results, not necessarily the exact way the MSQ portrays it happening. For instance, you may defeat Ifrit in some totally different way, get an airship pass by pickpocketing someone with one, or not even know you have the Echo -- you just know you can't be Tempered for some reason. That's what I mean by being "generic."

I think that the statement "ignore all story (and thus lore)" is extreme and dangerously close to misrepresenting my position since I never said to ignore all story and ignore all lore. In fact, I'm doing precisely what you say most RPers do--steal elements. I've taken the Echo, for instance, albeit a different and likely never to be self-realized form of it, and membership with the Grand Company. But fair enough, I see your point all the same and the wisdom in it. Especially because I've picked and chosen, I shouldn't be judgemental of others who've done the same.

That said, I expect stellar stories from those of you who will claim to have bested of Titan and Garuda! Hehe. I will be highly discerning on that front.

Tangential, but there's a part of the main storyline that I think really refers to the rest of us players and sets up the game universe in which the NPCs mention the contributions made/to be made by elite cadres of adventurers. Still doing great things, but doing different great things. That's where I place everyone and why it is okay to have outliers. An Umbral era, after all, should be as much a time for heroes as it is a time for suffering.

LiadansWhisper · **09-12-2013, 12:35 PM**

(09-12-2013, 12:10 PM)C Wrote:
(09-12-2013, 07:45 AM)Ashren Snow Wrote: Keep in mind that Ifrit and Garuda were around during 1.0 as well which meant there were plenty of chances to defeat them before even the Battle of Carteneau, the current storyline merely suggests that no one has really managed to defeat Garuda since the Warriors of Light disappeared, though...

This is an excellent point, particularly since we live on a Legacy server. In the 15 years after the lifting of the veil on Silvertear Lake, ample opportunities may have existed before the Beastmen really refined their methods of summoning. This also lends credence to the depth of the list maintained by the Immortal Flames.

(09-12-2013, 09:00 AM)FreelanceWizard Wrote: I would argue that a very vocal group of RPers on this forum has indicated that they ignore all story (and thus lore) from the main scenario quest, but that in aggregate, they're a minority. The majority of RPers most likely take from the MSQ generic bits, pieces, and themes that can apply to any character and that they feel fit their character concept -- such as, say, defeating one or more Primals in battle, having the Echo, having an airship pass, working for the Scions, or joining a Grand Company.

EDIT: It occurs to me that I should probably clarify my statement about the MSQ. When I say "generic bits, pieces, and themes," I refer to the end results, not necessarily the exact way the MSQ portrays it happening. For instance, you may defeat Ifrit in some totally different way, get an airship pass by pickpocketing someone with one, or not even know you have the Echo -- you just know you can't be Tempered for some reason. That's what I mean by being "generic."

I think that the statement "ignore all story (and thus lore)" is extreme and dangerously close to misrepresenting my position since I never said to ignore all story and ignore all lore. In fact, I'm doing precisely what you say most RPers do--steal elements. I've taken the Echo, for instance, albeit a different and likely never to be self-realized form of it, and membership with the Grand Company. But fair enough, I see your point all the same and the wisdom in it. Especially because I've picked and chosen, I shouldn't be judgemental of others who've done the same.

That said, I expect stellar stories from those of you who will claim to have bested of Titan and Garuda! Hehe. I will be highly discerning on that front.

Tangential, but there's a part of the main storyline that I think really refers to the rest of us players and sets up the game universe in which the NPCs mention the contributions made/to be made by elite cadres of adventurers. Still doing great things, but doing different great things. That's where I place everyone and why it is okay to have outliers. An Umbral era, after all, should be as much a time for heroes as it is a time for suffering.

I guess I kind of see your point, but I'll be honest... Â While I myself hadn't planned on using those battles in my own character's background, what you (and others) have posted has honestly come across to me as very stand-offish, and exclusionary. Â I mean, if one part of the lore in the game (that being that the Primals are being summoned at an increasing rate, and are being repeatedly defeated by both groups of adventurers and larger-scale groups within the Grand Companies) just isn't something you want to deal with, I have to ask what else from the story you're against having people have in their backgrounds?

TBH, what these posts do is intimidate players like me from ever even trying to RP with players like you. Â Because I can't help but wonder if you wouldn't look down your nose at the story for my character.

Poll: Do you think it's okay to kill a Primal ICly? You do not have permission to vote in this poll.
Primals can be killed ICly	76.67%	23	76.67%
Primals can't be killed ICly	23.33%	7	23.33%
Total		30 vote(s)	100%

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RPC has moved! These pages have been kept for historical purposes