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Merri · **10-27-2013, 04:19 PM**

The Aevis are just a part of a collective known as the "Horde", which is basically everything and anything that aligns itself with the Dragons. They're more officially known as the "Dragon Horde of Dravania."

Puks, Aevis, Drakes, Wyrms, Wyverns, Dragons, even corrupted people are members of the Dravanian Hordes, which I believe is interchangeable with "Dragon".

Dragons actually have a very interesting concept behind them, though the following pertains to the Dragoon storyline, so, spoilers. Now, I ran through the Storyline a bit ago, so I might not have everything 100%, but...

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Anzio · **10-28-2013, 02:05 PM**

(10-27-2013, 03:30 PM)LiadansWhisper Wrote:
(10-27-2013, 02:10 PM)Anzil Wrote: Thanks Merri. I wonder where the Mamool Ja come from. I find their origins interesting now.

(10-27-2013, 05:33 AM)LiadansWhisper Wrote: There's something said during the Botany questline in Gridania that seems to indicate that the Ixal at least once had some kind of peace treaty with the Gridanians. Â I can't remember what exactly was said, but I remember Fufucha seemed to indicate there was some kind of misunderstanding of some such that led to the current situation, but that before that the Ixal were as accepted as the Sylphs.

That was back when they were the YagudoÂ

I thought Yagudo were XI?

Fufucha refers to them as Ixal the entire time. Â She said they lived peacefully in the Twelveswood and were part of the culture there, trading and living alongside the other races. Â But she never explains what happened.

They are. I was joking...

Sad

WT_Neptune · **11-01-2013, 09:53 PM**

I've been skimming this thread so excuse me if this has already been mentioned, but has the nature of tempering been discussed? From the cutscene, I was unsure of whether Ifrit's tempering was of a sacrificial nature, or if one could choose to worship him if they were not an Amal'jah.

Also, Odin's roaming nature is another topic I'd like to discuss.

ALSO, could the tribe of deeper Noscea yet have a patron primal?

Ildur · **11-01-2013, 10:16 PM**

Tempering isn't a matter of choosing, it's basically a magical brainwash. In more technical terms, and based on how Primals react when they fail to temper the Player Character, tempering is the claiming of the subject's soul. People with the Echo are immune to them because their soul is already claimed by Hydaelyn.
I'm sure you could certainly pledge yourself to Ifrit willingly, but then you could change your mind. And the Primals don't like the idea of people changing sides and disobeying them, so they probably temper as many of their followers as they can anyway.

Odin is left like a mystery. There are some quests in the Shroud about him. He was sealed inside a crystal by one of the trademarked ancient civilizations, but the seal on the crystal weakened and now he is free. He is not revered by any beastmen, though, so how he keeps coming back is a matter of speculation.

And what do you mean by "the tribe of Deeper Noscea"? If you mean the kobolds, they worship Titan.

WT_Neptune · **11-01-2013, 10:30 PM**

I found a cool character that seemed like it could have been Garuda themed.

Anyways, I meant Amool Ja.

K'dath · **11-01-2013, 10:40 PM**

(11-01-2013, 09:53 PM)WT_Neptune Wrote:
I've been skimming this thread so excuse me if this has already been mentioned, but has the nature of tempering been discussed? From the cutscene, I was unsure of whether Ifrit's tempering was of a sacrificial nature, or if one could choose to worship him if they were not an Amal'jah.

Also, Odin's roaming nature is another topic I'd like to discuss.

ALSO, could the tribe of deeper Noscea yet have a patron primal?

I purposefully didn't touch on the Primals themselves, because they could very easily be a subject/thread all to their own with the various factors they bring to the table. In fact, I could probably write a full length essay just off the top of my head. I won't, but I could.

As far as tempering and worship go, I think that it is possible for non-Amalj'aa to revere Ifrit without tempering, but not probable. The primals 'feed' on the worship of their followers. Without the prayers and pleas of their followers they cannot maintain a tangible form. The more prayer, the more powerful. That is why they temper mortals, humanoids and beastmen alike, so that they will devote themselves to the Primal's being and no other cause.

There are non-tempered humanoid pirates 'The Serpent Reavers' in service to Leviathan, and there are 'heretics' which serve the Dragons (though whether they are 'tempered' or not I don't believe was ever brought up, only that they were 'mad'). So you could, as far as lore elaborates on the matters, be a willing, non-beast servant to a primal, but these people are usually not the sort you would associate with and would most likely be publicly condemned as criminals, incarcerated, or flat out executed to prevent the unmaking of Eorzea any further.

As for the nature of Odin, there's some quest text that elaborates on his nature a little more. I just grabbed this bit off the wiki:

Quote:A fell knight clad all in black, Odin roams paths long forgotten beneath the canopy of the Black Shroud.

There are none now alive who know the truth of when or by whom this elder primal was first summoned into the world. Ever vigilant as he sits astride his mighty steed, Sleipnir, it is said that Odin is driven solely by the desire to do battle with worthy foes.

It seems like his major function is to simply be a wondering swordsman looking for the perfect battle, a very common fantasy trope, especially in Eastern culture where the samurai is still an honored symbol. His 'primalness' seems comparatively unimportant, though crowning him an 'Elder' Primal does make me curious as if there is even more to all the primals' history we don't know yet.

I'm aware Bahamut is considered an 'elder' primal too, but I don't think what the distinction between primal/elder primal has been touched on or elaborated yet?

Ildur · **11-01-2013, 10:48 PM**

The Mamool Ja are 'canon inmigrants' from FF XI, I believe. They probably have a Primal, but it hasn't been revealed yet.

WT_Neptune · **11-03-2013, 05:13 AM**

Revisiting. What do the Kobolds/Titan and Slyphs/Ramuh plan to do? Doesn't each side have its reason for pushing territory, but some flaw to their purpose? Kobolds were defending, but for some reason, I feel like Titan wanted something else specific. I'm not familiar with Ramuh's motives though.

LiadansWhisper · **11-03-2013, 05:47 AM**

(11-03-2013, 05:13 AM)WT_Neptune Wrote: Revisiting. What do the Kobolds/Titan and Slyphs/Ramuh plan to do? Doesn't each side have its reason for pushing territory, but some flaw to their purpose? Kobolds were defending, but for some reason, I feel like Titan wanted something else specific. I'm not familiar with Ramuh's motives though.

According to the Sylphs you talk to, Ramuh is a purely defensive primal. Â He seeks only to defend his territory and his people, and this is in part why the Tempered Sylphs aren't actually a threat to Gridania (insofar as they will only react with hostility if you directly provoke them by invading their territory). Â The only reason they're kidnapping the untempered Sylphs is that the Tempered Ones are trying to "reunite" their people in a misguided fashion.

As far as Titan goes, he's definitely "defensive," but perhaps this was just an excuse for him to stomp around.

WT_Neptune · **11-03-2013, 06:34 AM**

(11-03-2013, 05:47 AM)LiadansWhisper Wrote:
(11-03-2013, 05:13 AM)WT_Neptune Wrote: Revisiting. What do the Kobolds/Titan and Slyphs/Ramuh plan to do? Doesn't each side have its reason for pushing territory, but some flaw to their purpose? Kobolds were defending, but for some reason, I feel like Titan wanted something else specific. I'm not familiar with Ramuh's motives though.

According to the Sylphs you talk to, Ramuh is a purely defensive primal. Â He seeks only to defend his territory and his people, and this is in part why the Tempered Sylphs aren't actually a threat to Gridania (insofar as they will only react with hostility if you directly provoke them by invading their territory). Â The only reason they're kidnapping the untempered Sylphs is that the Tempered Ones <b>are trying to "reunite" their people in a misguided fashion.</b>

As far as Titan goes, he's definitely "defensive," but perhaps this was just an excuse for him to stomp around.

Have the Tempered Ones shown any malice or obviously immoral views, or has the Sylph dispute been an us vs them?

FreelanceWizard · **11-03-2013, 12:43 PM**

(11-03-2013, 06:34 AM)WT_Neptune Wrote: Have the Tempered Ones shown any malice or obviously immoral views, or has the Sylph dispute been an us vs them?

Other than their desire to have all other Sylphs tempered and their aggressiveness to any Walking Ones who step into their territory, they seem to keep to themselves. The quest lines don't indicate that they're particularly malicious or immoral outside of that. The dispute between the Sylphs is purely that the Tempered Ones want to show their untempered cousins the "light," so to speak, of Ramuh; for their part, the untempered Sylphs fear the Tempered Ones, as they view tempering as being brainwashed.

That said, all Primals are inherently destructive to Eorzea, at least if the Scions and Garleans are correct regarding their effect on Aether. While some are more overtly destructive and grasping (Ifrit, Garuda), all of them are destructive by their very nature -- and Tempering is a moral problem, as it does warp the mind of someone for the sole purpose of making them a permanent follower of that "god."

As a complete aside, the Sylph plotline is one I find particularly interesting, because it brings up a fair number of moral quandaries. Smile

WT_Neptune · **11-04-2013, 03:31 AM**

(11-03-2013, 12:43 PM)FreelanceWizard Wrote:
(11-03-2013, 06:34 AM)WT_Neptune Wrote: Have the Tempered Ones shown any malice or obviously immoral views, or has the Sylph dispute been an us vs them?

Other than their desire to have all other Sylphs tempered and their aggressiveness to any Walking Ones who step into their territory, they seem to keep to themselves. The quest lines don't indicate that they're particularly malicious or immoral outside of that. The dispute between the Sylphs is purely that the Tempered Ones want to show their untempered cousins the "light," so to speak, of Ramuh; for their part, the untempered Sylphs fear the Tempered Ones, as they view tempering as being brainwashed.

That said, all Primals are inherently destructive to Eorzea, at least if the Scions and Garleans are correct regarding their effect on Aether. While some are more overtly destructive and grasping (Ifrit, Garuda), all of them are destructive by their very nature -- and Tempering is a moral problem, as it does warp the mind of someone for the sole purpose of making them a permanent follower of that "god."

As a complete aside, the Sylph plotline is one I find particularly interesting, because it brings up a fair number of moral quandaries.

But humans' current way of life are also inherently destructive to the planet. In comparsion, each faction is more like separate countries disputing, nationalism deciding who is morally right.

LiadansWhisper · **11-04-2013, 03:39 AM**

(11-04-2013, 03:31 AM)WT_Neptune Wrote: But humans' current way of life are also inherently destructive to the planet. In comparsion, each faction is more like separate countries disputing, nationalism deciding who is morally right.

It could be argued that Gridania is a very big exception to that.

WT_Neptune · **11-04-2013, 06:05 AM**

(11-04-2013, 03:39 AM)LiadansWhisper Wrote:
(11-04-2013, 03:31 AM)WT_Neptune Wrote: But humans' current way of life are also inherently destructive to the planet. In comparsion, each faction is more like separate countries disputing, nationalism deciding who is morally right.

It could be argued that Gridania is a very big exception to that.

I mean us as humans.

K'dath · **11-04-2013, 07:21 AM**

(11-04-2013, 06:05 AM)WT_Neptune Wrote:
(11-04-2013, 03:39 AM)LiadansWhisper Wrote:
(11-04-2013, 03:31 AM)WT_Neptune Wrote: But humans' current way of life are also inherently destructive to the planet. In comparsion, each faction is more like separate countries disputing, nationalism deciding who is morally right.

It could be argued that Gridania is a very big exception to that.
I mean us as humans.

That is WAY beyond the scope of this topic, BUT the humanoids in the story mode certainly have their share of major malfunctions. Eorzea pretty much runs on the rule 'Everyone is selfish, so I've gotta get mine before they get theirs!' Or 'If I can't have it no one will'. The problem with the aetheric disturbances that 'will certainly destroy Eorzea' trace back to human aggression.

In fact, pretty much everything that's ever gone wrong in history that we know of has been attributed to humans being idiots, not the primals. See the Eorzean Timeline for some great examples of how humanity in this game is exceedingly stupid.

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