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ansemaru · **01-16-2014, 05:08 AM**

The elementals being so tied to the Shroud seems like it's a pretty vital piece of information in understanding them. Nature is everywhere, but they're not, and they're not even apparently necessary for a region being a flourishing wilderness- the jungles south of Wineport are doing just fine, without any elementals needed to protect them.

I think it's not necessarily a good idea to assume that they would be everywhere, or that they're all-powerful. Their power is clearly connected to the Shroud, not anywhere else. And in regards to Morys not being allowed to leave, it sounds less like the power of the elementals reaches beyond the Shroud, but more that because he had something tying himself to it, the elementals were able to reach out to him specifically to drag him back to their realm before he could get too far.

There's nothing equivalent to them elsewhere in Eorzea or Hydaelyn in terms of power or role. No "Sandwrath" or the ocean rising up to punish anybody who threatens Vylbrand- hell, even the neighboring Mor Dhona didn't have elementals acting in this fashion, and it was a forest region!

White Mages, Succor, elementals, Padjal, and the Black Shroud- all of these things are pieces of a puzzle, and specifically pieces that all fit into one particular region of the map. Speculating that there may be elementals elsewhere in the world is fruitless, because if there are, they're even less powerful than the post-Calamity elementals of the Shroud. This is what there not being any equivalent force to the Greenwrath elsewhere suggests- or, alternatively, if we're to believe for a moment that there are elementals elsewhere, that the elementals in the Shroud are just territorial assholes in comparison to the elementals everywhere else, and are the only ones that mark threats for exile and death if they're displeased.

Kismet · **01-16-2014, 05:59 AM**

I was honestly afraid of the kind of responses this thread would get when I saw the title... But I do RP that Astrid is a White Mage, so I thought I'd offer my two cents.

For anyone here that RPed in GW2, there's a group your character could join called the Order of Whispers. It's essentially a spy organization. Typically, if you're an RPer and you're an OoW member? You just... don't tell anyone. Unless a) they find out through RP, b) they're a fellow OoW member and you give them OOC permission to recognize your character, or c) you join a guild full of OoW members in which situation B just becomes larger scale, basically.

Long story short: Astrid keeps it a secret. (Just as Liadan suggested in her first post.)

Does Astrid run around Gridania shouting that she's a White Mage? No. Only in the most extreme of emergencies (one such emergency being when her girlfriend was accidentally sliced across the chest by a marauder) does she use WHM abilities (which she would pass off as normal CNJ abilities if questioned anyway). And even then she gives herself pretty strict guidelines for when and when not to use them (typically no more than 3 active witnesses is one example). Otherwise, she doesn't touch them.

As for how she became a WHM, I'm treating it as though she was taught the art by a mentoring WHM. White Magic has not been wiped out though it is now a forbidden art and it is more than likely that Raya-O-Senna and her little brother aren't the only WHMs left in existence. If I'm still RPing in FFXIV months from now, I will be treating Astrid as an actual SCH ICly, too. I have an even better explanation for that -- the character of a friend of mine who was RPing as a SCH was killed ICly, so Astrid (with the help of another character acting as her off-screen mentor) will be learning the abilities directly from his grimoire.

Do I think this is the best way I could handle things? Nah. Do I find it to be a fairly logical solution that's not too farfetched? Yeah.

LiadansWhisper · **01-16-2014, 06:13 AM**

(01-16-2014, 05:59 AM)Kismet Wrote: Do I think this is the best way I could handle things? Nah. Do I find it to be a fairly logical solution that's not too farfetched? Yeah.

Seems legit to me, anyway, while playing as close to the Lore as possible.

A note, though: As far as I can tell, every single Padjal is a White Mage (likely due to their nature affinity with Conjury - which was deliberately given to them by the Elementals to facilitate their role as emissaries and mediators). Â So there are most certainly more WHMs than the Seedseer siblings. Â We only see 5 Padjal in the game (at least, so far in the main storyline, WHM, and CNJ questlines, and I have yet to encounter them in the ARC/BRD or LNC questlines). Â Kan-E, Raya-O, A-Ruhn, E-Sumi, and A-Towa. Â But there were other Padjal that appeared in 1.0, and there are apparently several families that produce Padjal on a regular basis.

LiadansWhisper · **01-16-2014, 06:15 AM**

(01-16-2014, 05:08 AM)ansemaru Wrote: White Mages, Succor, elementals, Padjal, and the Black Shroud- all of these things are pieces of a puzzle, and specifically pieces that all fit into one particular region of the map. Speculating that there may be elementals elsewhere in the world is fruitless, because if there are, they're even less powerful than the post-Calamity elementals of the Shroud. This is what there not being any equivalent force to the Greenwrath elsewhere suggests- or, alternatively, if we're to believe for a moment that there are elementals elsewhere, that the elementals in the Shroud are just territorial assholes in comparison to the elementals everywhere else, and are the only ones that mark threats for exile and death if they're displeased.

The fact that the Greenwrath only exists in the Shroud could just as easily mean that there is something very, very important about this particular bit of Eorzea. Â So important, in fact, that the Elementals are not willing to allow it to be disturbed.

It could also mean that there is something unique about the Shroud, unique enough to allow the otherwise non-communicative Elementals to actually manifest and make their will known. Â Hell, it could mean that the area has some kind of focused magic that allows the Elementals to have a focused will at all, whereas outside of the Shroud, they simply can't be coherent long enough to get anything done.

There's a lot of possibilities.

ansemaru · **01-16-2014, 06:31 AM**

I'm struggling to think what would make the Shroud so ~special~ and ~important to protect~ as opposed to literally any other region in Eorzea or Hydaelyn.

Also, maybe this is just the impression I'm getting, but are the elementals even remotely a force of good in the world? They're certainly something, but they only appear to have their own best interest at heart, and I'm kind of baffled that people treat them as something that needs to be appeased and obeyed rather than an overt threat like Primals.

LiadansWhisper · **01-16-2014, 06:39 AM**

(01-16-2014, 06:31 AM)ansemaru Wrote: I'm struggling to think what would make the Shroud so ~special~ and ~important to protect~ as opposed to literally any other region in Eorzea or Hydaelyn.

It may not be something we're aware of (or that anyone is aware of beyond possibly the Padjal). Â It may also have to do with Succor itself, where it comes from, and how it works. Â Remember, the Twelveswood was grown specifically to hide Amdapor away and ensure the knowledge of White Magic never again fell into the hands of mortals (since they'd so grossly abused it).

Quote:Also, maybe this is just the impression I'm getting, but are the elementals even remotely a force of good in the world? They're certainly something, but they only appear to have their own best interest at heart, and I'm kind of baffled that people treat them as something that needs to be appeased and obeyed rather than an overt threat like Primals.

Because Gridania has a symbiotic relationship with them. Â And because they're not evil so far as we can tell. Â The Elementals are the Shroud, and the Shroud is the Elementals. Â Destroying one would destroy the other. Â I do think it's a mistake to judge their actions and motivations from a human standpoint, though.

ansemaru · **01-16-2014, 06:48 AM**

If everyone is content to judge the Primals and beast tribes from a human perspective, I see no problem in judging the elementals from a human perspective. And from a human perspective, they've been an active threat to pretty much all sentient life in that region of Eorzea for centuries. Just because they can be held back by constant appeasement doesn't mean they should be- their behavior seems less like that of a benevolent protector and more on par with a monster demanding its needs be put above those of the individuals it lives near. If the Greenwrath weren't such of a threat, would anybody actually put in the effort to meet the demands and standards of the elementals?

FreelanceWizard · **01-16-2014, 09:31 AM**

(01-16-2014, 06:31 AM)ansemaru Wrote: Also, maybe this is just the impression I'm getting, but are the elementals even remotely a force of good in the world? They're certainly something, but they only appear to have their own best interest at heart, and I'm kind of baffled that people treat them as something that needs to be appeased and obeyed rather than an overt threat like Primals.

Funny you should mention that. Smile

My character is currently pondering whether eliminating or otherwise neutralizing the elementals of the Shroud would be a net positive for the world. In her mind, if the elementals are interfering with the learning of magicks that could potentially save Eorzea from Primals and the Garleans (as she's heard in rumour), they've got to go -- they're implicitly aiding the forces of Evil. Of course there's no way the War of the Magi could be repeated if those magicks got out, because modern Eorzeans are just plain better people.

Of course, she keeps this opinion to herself. Smile

From an OOC standpoint, Gridanians likely view the elementals as protectors and benefactors, even now. Pre-Calamity, they did a pretty good job of protecting the city from outside threats, and all they asked for in return was living in harmony with the forest -- which is something Gridanians probably wanted to do anyway due to the culture. Post-Calamity, the elementals don't seem to be so capable of keeping up their end of the bargain (poachers everywhere in the South Shroud, a Castrum in the East Shroud, Ala Mhigan refugees showing up, Ramuh being summoned, Ixal pouring into the North Shroud, etc.), but there's quite a history there that's unlikely to be wiped out in 5 years. It makes sense to me that, even if the wrath of the forest is substantially reduced except in particular circumstances, Gridanians would still maintain their beliefs about it and still take special care to avoid provoking it.

EDIT: I'm being bad and straying off topic. Blush

To the OP's question, I think Sounsyy has covered most of the viable approaches. I personally think the most plausible is "taught by another White Mage for some reason;" I would caution against going with playing a Padjal or an elemental, because for many RPers, that's a bridge too far as you're asking them to accept playing something that can't be played in game. Another possible option is "uncovered the keys to White Magic yourself," though I believe that strays away from lore since the elementals, according to those who've done more of the WHM quest line than I, directly control access to the underlying power source.

Eva · **01-16-2014, 10:56 AM**

In the end this is the same argument that crops up every few weeks/months around here (and the same can be said of some of the other jobs as well) where the game's storyline quest throws lore at us which belies what we see with our own eyes (e.g. "if white mages are so rare, how come I can't run through Ul'dah without spotting fewer than 29 of them?") and there's really no easy answer.

For my own part I don't think anyone's explicitly "wrong" in choosing how they want to RP. I sometimes feel people take the storyline lore a bit too literally, and I sometimes feel people take far too much freedom in straying from that. For myself I prefer a middle-of-the-road approach. I deal in abstracts.

Eva in-character is a healer. She possesses the ability to mend wounds with aetherial energy. By trade she is a nurse (among other things). I don't think she would ever refer to herself as a "white mage", however she doesn't protest when RPers (generally those from the 'take more freedoms' bunch) address her as such. It can't really be denied that she wears that garb and I see no point in raising a fuss over it. I try to look at it as not the specific thing that the lore says it is, but more as a synonym for a healer - any healer. Or one who uses magic for benevolent purposes (and yes there are a lot of gray areas here as well, pun truly not intended).

I just feel like it's inhibitive of RP when folks look too far into things like this. While I enjoyed the quest story arcs, I think it's a little unrealistic to make certain expectations of peoples' RP based upon the lore contained within. There is a lot of room to play around in the abstractions. Maybe "white mage" can be looked upon as something of a synonym to "healer" - and I've certainly seen many different approaches at healing in RP, from crude field medicine, to shamanistic style rituals which may or may not draw upon aether, to the purely aetherial and traditional "white mage" approach that utilizes only magic. There is really no wrong so long as it's interesting and realistic to the world's views of the thing, however you interpret them.

To the OP I would encourage you to explore that facet of the character, if it is something that intrigues you - or more aptly if it's something that would intrigue the character. There are always methods to find middle ground with things that may seem implausible. In just a few seconds I was able to think of a good half dozen plausible examples that would work for a variety of different character types that could at the very least pursue a study of white magic in the more "lore-specific" sense as its presented to us. I am of the belief that it's malleable enough to make almost whatever you want of it that you'll enjoy RPing, within the confines of reasonable RP of course. Thumbsup

allgivenover · **01-16-2014, 11:20 AM**

(01-16-2014, 09:31 AM)FreelanceWizard Wrote: I would caution against going with playing a Padjal or an elemental, because for many RPers, that's a bridge too farÂ

This is certainly off the table, as Rakka'li has been a Keeper of the Moon Miqo'te since his inception and having him discover he was actually... something else... would be a hard left turn for him, not to mention how much the idea flirts with sue status - in my view at least.

After re-reading 1.0 white mage quest information and re-watching the ARR white mage material I do agree that so far the only way I'd find acceptable to do it would be for Succor to be bestowed upon him by a rogue elemental (ala 1.0) or taught by a student of A-Towa or another unnamed Padjal.

I'm still on the fence about doing it altogether, but so far the opinions presented here have been helpful, and I wouldn't mind seeing more from others.

allgivenover · **01-16-2014, 11:23 AM**

(01-16-2014, 10:56 AM)Eva Wrote: In just a few seconds I was able to think of a good half dozen plausible examples that would work for a variety of different character types that could at the very least pursue a study of white magic in the more "lore-specific" sense as its presented to us.

Would you mind sharing any of those ideas? This topic is, again, not about the right or wrong of RPing jobs. That's been discussed to death and is of little use for my purposes. I'm only interested in how others would or have had their character become a white mage.

Naunet · **01-16-2014, 11:41 AM**

(01-16-2014, 06:31 AM)ansemaru Wrote: I'm kind of baffled that people treat them as something that needs to be appeased and obeyed rather than an overt threat like Primals.

That's how my LS feels. Wink

The elementals, the beast tribes, the primals, the Twelve - they're all threats to our lives and care for nothing but their own gain and preservation! Submit to the Empire and we will free you from your otherworldly shackles!

Eva · **01-16-2014, 11:41 AM**

(01-16-2014, 11:23 AM)allgivenover Wrote: Would you mind sharing any of those ideas? ... I'm only interested in how others would or have done it.

Gladly. Â I was hesitant to proffer such because it's probably more meaningful to come up with this sort of thing yourself and I didn't want to step on your toes in that regard. Â Please bear in mind these are just a few basic archetypes thrown together over a few seconds' time and are little more than skeletons/framework that you could flesh out with whatever background the character already has coupled with whatever directions you may want to take the character going forward. Â The sky's the limit there:

1. Scholarly researcher type who has read of A-Towa-Cant and was intrigued and pursues knowledge of the history.
2. Conventional doctor (mundane medicine and first aid and such) who is driven to help a patient and needs to go behind his usual skill set.
3. Carefree spirit who is interested in the Padjal as a people, either historically or perhaps even physically attracted.
4. Born "hearer" who seeks to know more about who he/she is, why they hear the elementals, etc. Â Could spin on this and treat it as a curse rather than a blessing - "I don't want this talent", etc.
5. Tribal shaman type (would probably work even better for miqo'te given racial similarities however that makes certain assumptions in and of itself) who uses this sort of magic without realizing that it's even aetherial in nature.
6. Student of shaman type from #5 who is more modern-thinking and questions these traditional values and such.

I don't see anything wrong with any of these approaches, and you can draw upon different aspects depending if you wanted to focus more on the Padjal as a people and a character fascination with that, or the magic itself, or the "how and why" behind the magic. Â It all boils down to what you want to do and what's the most fun to you. Â Thumbsup

Naunet · **01-16-2014, 11:47 AM**

(01-16-2014, 11:41 AM)Eva Wrote: 5. Tribal shaman type (would probably work even better for miqo'te given racial similarities however that makes certain assumptions in and of itself) who uses this sort of magic without realizing that it's even aetherial in nature.
6. Student of shaman type from #5 who is more modern-thinking and questions these traditional values and such.

*eyes suspiciously* Are you psychic, Eva?

(Good suggestions, though it's important to note that accessing succor goes well beyond just accessing aether for manipulation.)

Kailia · **01-16-2014, 12:05 PM**

Well my character had went to Gridania and had learned conjury. However when she joined Ul'dah garden (Much against her tribes wishes lol) and explored the Sunken Temple of Qarn, which was a temple of azeyma back in the days when white and black magic were pretty common, she found a soul crystal of a white mage of old. In fact the soul contained inside was one of the teachers.

So that is how she became a white mage. As for the white mage clothes, the Seedseer when she returned to Gridania and showed the crystal and told of what the crystal had taught her, realized she could not unlearn what she had learned. So they taught her why white mages became limited, and trained her in the more modern style so she doesn't follow the path the white mages of the past took, which nearly destroyed Eorzea.

That's just an example of how I worked it to still comply with lore.

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