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Seriphyn · **02-06-2014, 01:51 PM**

Hi there, I've been thinking about this for AGES and wondering how it'll work.

Currently, I don't see what the point of jobs are except for ACN/SMN/SCH. Obviously, they're laying the basis for having at least two jobs per class, no? But given the nature of certain classes, how would this work? Also to consider is how the jobs seem to use the base classes animation/weapon set; is it possible for a 'job' to change the aesthetic stance of a class? It's easier with the caster classes because they just have a staff; but new MRD jobs will have to be axe-based, new LNC jobs spear-based, etc.

If Square Enix just adds new jobs that are only tied to new class, then one really has to wonder what the point of a job is. Keep in mind that the below has NO regard for game/class balance, and is purely being indulgent on shiny new jobs!

Gladiator
A 2nd tank job or a DPS job? Perhaps Samurai? Currently, most of GLD's skills are focused on damage mitigation and enmity generation. It would perhaps be the dullest DPS class in existence, given there is only one combo (lol Riot Blade), unless the five job skills add new combos (one job skill would have to be a stance dedicated to enmity reduction). Alternatively, there could be a second tank class, but I don't really know how this would be different from PLD. Maybe a more exciting tank class, given that the only non-situational job skill of use for PLD is Shield Oath (lolCover).

Pugilist
Think SE have written themselves into a corner with this one; traditionally, all 'fistfighting' classes/jobs in the FF mythos have been called 'Monk', right? This seemed like it was written as a one-track class/job. Though looking up other FF jobs, perhaps Dancer could fit into this one? Ninja? How would Ninja be different from Monk?

Marauder
Assuming job crystals can't change a class's default animation/stance set, a new job would have to be axe-based, especially that the artwork of the class skills are all based around an axe. AFAIK, Dark Knight in FFXI used a scythe? So perhaps Dark Knight could be a DPS job for MRD, with the first job skill at 30 dedicated to damage increase and enmity reduction (with THM and LNC cross-skills).

Otherwise I'm stumped for what else could be added. Perhaps Berserker, but the Warrior lore is already based on anger and whatnot (there is even a 'Berserk' as a base MRD skill). Unless, whereas Warriors seek to -control- the Inner Beast, Berserkers seek to unleash it.

Lancer
Another one-track class/job it seems; what other jobs could they possibly give to Lancer?Â

Archer
Easy-peasy. Ranger or Beastmaster. Ranger would be straight-up DPS without support elements, and Beastmaster would be a new pet class. I am presuming RNG since that is already in the game in Thornmarch. (EDIT: Guess my FF lore knowledge is weak, apparently BSTs use axes!)

Conjurer
Geomancer without question, given that CNJs used earth, water, and wind-based spells. It would be a DPS class for CNJs.

ThaumaturgeÂ
Blue Mage? Red Mage? My second-hand knowledge of FF jobs get weak in the magic areas...

Arcanist
Well, these guys already have two jobs, so can't be greedy!

Curious to know what people think.

Olofantur · **02-06-2014, 02:22 PM**

A quick off the cap response to "jobs" for me would be.

Jobs were an expansion of the class system applied in 1.0 to specialize roles particularly in group content, allowing the introduction of iconic abilities and gear locked to a given role since "classes" had much more flexability and a way of ensuring a certain level of balance was to lock them to the "job"

This isn't completely true of course as not /all/ abilities were cross class anyways, but the relic and tying in a story line, artifact armor ect all defined "jobs" apart from their class. I still used to run around in 1.0 as a THM when soloing due to the access to a larger tool set, particularly TP using defense abilities so I could use both resource pools [such as second wind and feather foot.] Though this has much less application in 2.0 where the majority of content difficulty has been toned down. [in solo play and outside of dungeon groupings.]

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-0xH27...ession.jpg
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-BfgNF...13+-+2.jpg

both contain interesting ideas basing the assumptions on 1.0 lore and trends in the over all franchise.

I more particularly are interested in how they will handle the raising of the level cap with existing classes/Jobs.

Whm: rersise, raise 2. Blink.
Sch: haste, accession.
Mnk: chi blast
War: maybe more damage WS and abilities. Mighty strikes?
Pld: CURE 2
Smn: more egi shiva/leviathan/ramuh
Drg: penta thrust, summon wyvern! [unlikely, but a guy can dream~]
Blm: ugghh more spells with varying utility/potency
Brd: regen song, sleep song more WS

Also IIRC [and I could be terribly off form here] but one speculation was that more advanced jobs might be unlocked via the unlocking of jobs themselves? like some kind of elemental manipulator/debuffer as an expansion of BLM/SMN.

Yssen · **02-06-2014, 03:48 PM**

Yay for brainstorming and speculating. I like doing this stuff. I have thought about this more than a little myself. These are some of my own thoughts. I shall list mine similar to how you have listed yours, naming the class and possible branches.

Marauder -

Given existing class abilities, this is the strongest candidate to have DRK branch from it. Scythes or Great Swords could simply be weapons only usable when the DRK job is equipped (similar to how there are books post 30 that are only usable by SCH and SMN). Scythes don't really require a lot of animation change from Axes, though GSes would require some tweaks. Likely the job abilities would revolve around sacrificing HP to do increased or special damage (Soul Eater).

BST is also a decent candidate, given the traditional affinity with Axes. Though this could admittedly be considered a bit of a stretch.Â

I tend to agree that Berserker seems to have been largely absorbed into WAR concept-wise, and I am pretty much stumped as to what else would wield and big ole Axe.

Lancer -

Another candidate for BST. Given where the class guild is located there is a pretty strong case for this. DRG seems to be the plant itself firmly as and Ishgardian creation, so it would make since for there to be a more Gridanian based job branch for this class. Obviously this is a pet job similar to SMN. A possibility is that only one job ability is given to summoning your pet, which is then built similar to how you build your chocobo companion. The rest of the abilities then being dedicated to buffing said pet. This would be very similar to DRG, as there really is nothing that DRG gets that is really enhances the base LNC skills at all. DRG gets jumps and an ability that enhances two of those jumps. So it does not seem improbable that the second job branch would have the same level of self contained abilities.Â

I am also really at sort of a loss as to what else would use spear, or what other weapon would use same spear animations as LNC.Â

Pugilist -Â

DNC, all the way. Some of the Pugilist specific animations already look really dance like already (Feather Foot, Fists of Wind, Internal Release). DNC also does tend to traditionally use fists and such. I predict that there will be more dancer like weapons only usable while the job is equipped. Likely this would be a melee form of BRD. Replace songs with dances, and give them different effects. I see there being a mirror here, with DNC being more focused on debuffing the enemy, rather than buffing the party. Think more Foe Requiem style effects, rather than Ballad or Paeon. Given the state of the game as it stands my prediction would be two mob debuffs and one party buff, to make it almost an exact mirror of BRD.

NIN is possible, but it is a stretch. My vote goes to NIN branching from the scout class they are working on (assuming that said scout class does not end up being Musketeer).Â

Archer -Â

Totally gets RNG. A ranged pure DPS job is something the game is lacking a bit right now. There are two at present. BRD and BLM. Yes, SMN doesn't really count as it IS more of a pet and DOT class than it is a purely ranged smack the enemy hard and fast. This one is sorta a gimme, though there are a couple of monkey wrenches that could be tossed at us. I will get to that later.

Gladiator -Â

This is tricky. It could be a dark horse candidate for DRK with some ability overlay. I think it is more likely we will get a DD aspect in the second job though. Something more traditional and possibly less scene. I am thinking Fencer or Mystic Swordsman/Rune Fencer off the top of my head. A stance that reduces hate gain and several new sword WSes and self buffs to pump the damage up and on to par with the other melee DDs. I think it is unlikely that they will strip away shield use from this class, since there are several Gladiator abilities that require a shield. Anything is possible with something similar to SMN and SCH ability overlay though. This is the class that is the hardest to pin down. The second job could be anything. It is easier to think about what would not fit. That said, I know a lot of people are predicting RDM to branch out of this. In my opinion that does RDM a bit of a disservice. RDMs are jack of all trades, and the current set of 5 extra abilities from job does not really fill out this role well. I suppose it depends a bit on what cross class stuff they can pull from though. BLU is also a distinct possibility, with the five job ability slots being used to slot in learned enemy skills. Like XI they can learn a big giant pool of them, but only get to use a few of them at a time actively.

Thaumaturge -

Also hard to pin down. Time Mage is a possible. This would shift the job to a more DD and Support role similar to BRD. BLU is also possible with similar mechanics to those described in the Gladiator section. I would honestly be more comfortable with RDM branching from this class, with the job abilities being more focused on fleshing out the jack of all trades bits. The base class ability pool makes more sense to me, and it would not be hard to simply have RDM be able to equip a sword instead of a wand and use the existing base sword animations. Yay flavor!

Conjurer -

A more support based mage such as Time Mage could easily come from this as well. Heck, a strong case can be made for BLU, given city-state of origin. If any peoples are going to have a profound enough connection to the world's fauna to use their abilities it is going to be the Gridanians (crazy, zealous, tree huggers). Geomancer is also a very strong case. I tend to place BLU firmly in the THM camp, given the tradition in FF for Blue Magic to be a forbidden or dangerous art. I think Geomancer or Time Mage are much more likely to branch from here. In truth, all of the magic classes are hard to pin down at all. I think it is going to be a while before we see any sort of new magic user anytime soon. There are just other things they have a higher priority of adding to the game before they give us new spell flingers.Â

Arcanist -

Already has two jobs. Probably won't get anymore until they catch the other stuff up to having two per class.Â

I have reserved some space here at the bottom to give a mention to a couple of things we know are coming or being tested. This is mostly pure speculation with some if/then statements.

Unknown Scout Class -Â

Will likely get THF and NIN.Â

Musketeer -Â

Will probably get Corsair which would again fill the place of Gambler like it did in XI. It is possible it will much more simple than that mechanics wise, though. I would be sad if they just made COR a bard clone though. We also have to take into account that they might feel really frisky and have THF branch from here, IF Musketeer ends up being the Unknown Scout Class they have spoken of. The lore bits sorta fit for this being a thing, but time will tell.

Other possibilities here include Gun Mage (whacky flavor of BLU), Engineer (yay tech based stuff), and a myriad of other gun wielding jobs. Too early to tell. A lot will depend on what this class looks like when we get it, and we are going to get it. Guild symbol is there and everything. My personal hope for the job branches would be COR and THF (because ranged hate control would be exceedingly interesting).

Unknown Great Sword Class -

This has been teased a couple of times. It has been mentioned that this class is also being tested. We already know that we will get something like SAM. It just won't be called SAM. More than likely the Not-SAM will be one of the job branches from here. DRK is also a distinct possibility. Too early to really tell, but I am calling it that Not-SAM will branch from here.

My closing thoughts here are this. What is really going to bake our noodles are the possibilities of Advanced Jobs. Jobs that require other Jobs as requirements. Wheeee!

Anyway, my two gil. Yar.

Dogberry · **02-06-2014, 04:05 PM**

OK for Pugilist, hear me out on this one, because it's kind of crazy.

Blue Mage.

Think about it. You've got three stances already based on animals. Opo-opo, Raptor, and Coeurl stance. The whole class is dependent on the way those stances interplay with each other to keep Greased Lightning going. There's even an entire martial art based on mimicking the Coeurl. Why not expand on that and make Blue Mage a part of the Pugilist track?

synaesthetic · **02-06-2014, 04:06 PM**

Gladiator -> Dark Knight (DRK)

Ability: Darkside, activated stance. Removes enmity added effects from weaponskills, increases damage by 20% and reduces defense by 15%.

Ability: Drain. 30 second recast. Deals 170 potency magic damage to the target and restores 10% of maximum MP and 5% of maximum HP.

Weaponskill: Blood Scythe. Combos through Fast Blade > Savage Blade > Blood Scythe, places Blood Plague, a 30 potency damage-over-time effect for 30 seconds, on the target and has a potency of 250 (100 out of combo). Restores HP (low).

Weaponskill: Lethal Strike. Combos through Fast Blade > Riot Blade > Lethal Strike, places Lethal Plague, a 35 potency damage-over-time effect, on the target for 24 seconds and has a potency of 220 (100 out of combo).

Ability: Soul Eater. 40 second recast. Costs 50% of current MP. Consumes existing damage-over-time effects (causes their duration to expire) and deals variable potency damage to the target. Potency 50-250/100-500, based on how close the DoTs are to expiring (i.e. if landed when both Blood Plague and Lethal Venom have only ~1 second remaining, the potency is maximized at 500, but if used the moment both DoTs are applied, the potency is only 100. If only Blood Plague or Lethal Venom is active, potency is halved).

Primary stat is STR. Cross-classes from Lancer (LNC) and Marauder (MRD).

I also have ideas for other jobs... including, but not limited to:

Pugilist -> Dancer (DNC) - Front-line healer and support, uses TP and MP both for healing and beneficial effects. Primary stat MND. Cross-classes from CNJ and LNC.
Conjurer -> Geomancer (GEO) - Magic damage dealer with a focus on ground-targeted effects that interact with each other. Primary stat INT. Cross-classes from THM and ACN.
Archer -> Ranger (RNG) - Physical ranged damage dealer with debuff support (to counter bard's buff support). Primary stat DEX. Cross-classes from LNC and MRD.
Lancer -> Defender (DEF) - Parry-based tank, single-target. Primary stat VIT. Cross-classes from MRD and GLA.
Thaumaturge -> Necromancer (NEC) - Healer through damage dealing/vampiric effects (think chloromancer from RIFT). Primary stat INT. Cross-classes from ACN and CNJ.

Of course, these jobs would require that the silly point allocation thing was fixed to be job-specific rather than class-specific, as some of these jobs share primary attributes with the existing jobs, and others do not.

(02-06-2014, 04:05 PM)Dogberry Wrote: OK for Pugilist, hear me out on this one, because it's kind of crazy.

Blue Mage.

Think about it. You've got three stances already based on animals. Opo-opo, Raptor, and Coeurl stance. The whole class is dependent on the way those stances interplay with each other to keep Greased Lightning going. There's even an entire martial art based on mimicking the Coeurl. Why not expand on that and make Blue Mage a part of the Pugilist track?

Disagree. Blue Mage and Red Mage both need new classes because none of the current ones fit with their style and characteristics.

Nomad. Uses a Nomad's Arm (Scimitars, kukris and other exotic curved knives). A melee damage-dealer class that dual-wields lightweight, curved swords and knives. Its jobs are Blue Mage (magic-oriented damage) and Thief (physical-oriented damage).

Fencer. Uses a Fencer's Arm (Rapier, fleuret, epee). A melee, magic-oriented damage-dealer class that uses lightweight thrusting swords and "En" spells. It's jobs are Red Mage (magic-oriented damage and debuffing) and Mystic Knight (magic-oriented "absorb" tank).

Dogberry · **02-06-2014, 04:49 PM**

FFXI Blue Mage, sure, middle eastern and scimitars, but if you look at other FF's it could be anything. Look at Gau, Strago, Quina, Quistis, and Khimari. Nothing at all in common except that they could learn enemy attacks. No common weapons or anything. And here we've already got a class that studies animals. Hmm.

synaesthetic · **02-06-2014, 04:53 PM**

I just really think pugilist's other job should be dancer, because they breakdance! Big Grin

No Longer Exists · **02-06-2014, 05:13 PM**

What exactly are we asking here? It seemed like the theme switched gears slightly with the discussion of jobs based on starting classes, then stepped into the realm of action-animations.Â

I assume, we're dreaming things up in this manner because it might be easier to blend to the existing class without too much alteration and so I'll speak to that first. It may seem like a step back, but staves and lances would use much the same animation styling, therefore a combo LNC/PUG Master Monk class could be an option, blending the two animation styles and attack styles seamlessly using staves rather than nunchaku. Sure, it might be a bit of a cop-out as it's just an extension of MNK but what can you do. Also, there's a good opportunity to push for a Heavy Knight wielding Lances with GLD PLD WAR MAR armor specs....and that would be awesome. Innovative Tank Job.

As for actual job extensions. There's plenty of room for growth on all fields and I agree with Olofantur, moar levels for existing jobs gives better opportunity.

Dogberry, loving the idea of PUG for Blue Mage Job. I'm thinking pair it with SCH or SMN, logically taking the beast-form stances into a mystickal progression resulting in enemy skills (As it was called in 7) and "Mimic" in 6.

Ninja is a tricky one, support/DPS class or DPS class with minor magics depending on what you reference. The original (taking it old school) Ninja class was a DPS style class with Black Magic skills no higher than intermediate (Fire 2, I believe) where it stagnated there. In 4, Edge used a form of magic that mimicked mid-range elemental spells and a few support spells. But really, Ninja (and Thief, of course) would be the two best uses for the stealth feature outside DoLs.Â

Don't need to touch RNG or BST, pretty easy ones. Time Mage would be interesting for a BLM progression paired with SCH.

And so we move on to Dark Knight. This is a weird one for me, because I've watched a lot of conversation about DRK in recent weeks. The big issue here is collectively "WHAT IS THE DARK KNIGHT?" Batman? Yes. But in FF terms, when you google "Final Fantasy Dark Knight", the first thing that comes up is the wikia page.

Taken from the Wikia

Profile[img]data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIABAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAEALAAAAAABAAEAQAICTAEAOw%3D%3D[/img]Edit
The Dark Knight is characterized by wearing tight, sometimes enclosed black armor and wielding a sword steeped inÂ wicked powers. Their physical stats, with exception of Defense, are usually high, but their other stats depend on the game they appear in. The typical Dark Knight ability isÂ Souleater, also known as Darkness, which allows them to sacrifice theirÂ HPÂ to perform stronger attacks.
However, Souleater is not exclusive to the Dark Knight class. Dark Knights may also have abilities based onÂ Blood EquipmentÂ that allows them to absorb HP andÂ MPÂ from enemies. The Dark Knight is opposed by theÂ Paladin, holy knights who protect allies and wield sacred powers. Unlike many classes, Dark Knights bear a signature weapon, theÂ Deathbringer, which has a chance to kill certain enemies in a single blow.
This presents a few caveats.to designing the Dark Knight job.
One (and I can't stress this enough): The scythe is not the standard Dark Knight weapon, it's a scythe. It's wielded by botanists. The standard Dark Knight weapon is a sword, commonly Deathbringer. Removing the Deathbringer entirely to make Dark Knight a job for the MMO is fine, but don't expect scythes. More likely, two-handed swords, I'd guess.Â
Two: Dark Knight would be a hard sell for an open job realistically, for RPers it's wonderful and for gamers, it would be something to feel badass about. But thematically for the game, we'd be running into the same territory as the WHM lore. ZOMG THERE ARE HUNDREDS OF DARK KNIGHTS! WE'RE DOOOOOOOOOMED.Â
Three: (The only really positive caveat I have for DRK) Dark Knight would be a wicked starting job for a dark side storyline, assuming the devs would go that route. Dark Crystals are always hinted at in various final fantasy games and in some, they've granted their own darker themed jobs. So...maybe!
Point being, even though it's really cool, I can't see DRK coming to us any time soon. Sorry to be the proverbial stick in the mud!
Cheers!
-Black Hat

synaesthetic · **02-06-2014, 05:21 PM**

I don't get why everyone has to tie DRK to two-handed swords. Cecil was a Dark Knight before he became a Paladin, and he used one-handed swords and a shield!

I find it amusing that people are so stuck to the XI idea of the dark knight, but they're opposed to the XI idea of the blue mage. >_>;

GLA needs a DPS job, DRK is a good fit, and with the skills I outlined above, could have a very fun and interesting rotation with managing MP and damage-over-time effects and consuming them with a big finisher akin to a destruction warlock's Conflagrate.

XIV already does a lot of things that are unprecedented in the Final Fantasy continuum, and yet the fans want to keep rehashing stuff that's already been done. There's no rule that states they have to copy jobs from previous FF games, and I think they need to branch out a bit in terms of how their classes and roles work.

If Squee really wants "innovation" then they need to play around with MMO class and role "norms." A healer who heals through damage/lifedrain, as my idea of the Necromancer (NEC) job for Thaumaturge, is not standard--I've only seen it on chloromancer in RIFT. The idea of a melee healer who gains more powerful heals and buffs through their melee combos is a lot more interesting and original than "hurr DRK has to have a giant sword so we can make characters with various mispellings of Sephiroth as their name."

No Longer Exists · **02-06-2014, 05:23 PM**

(02-06-2014, 04:06 PM)synaesthetic Wrote:
(02-06-2014, 04:05 PM)Dogberry Wrote: OK for Pugilist, hear me out on this one, because it's kind of crazy.

Blue Mage.

Think about it. You've got three stances already based on animals. Opo-opo, Raptor, and Coeurl stance. The whole class is dependent on the way those stances interplay with each other to keep Greased Lightning going. There's even an entire martial art based on mimicking the Coeurl. Why not expand on that and make Blue Mage a part of the Pugilist track?

Disagree. Blue Mage and Red Mage both need new classes because none of the current ones fit with their style and characteristics.

Blue Mage is a misnomer, technically. I can't recall there being too many references to enemy skills as blue magic save for 6 and even then it was so rare that only a specific bloodline messed with it and then there's GoGo who did the same thing only for party members....

Red Mage fits with SCH or a WHM/BLM job progression. In simplified terms of the current system, GLD/SCH for red mage. However, that kicks PLD in the mommy/daddy button. So it's a weird one. Still....ZOMG Mage Knight would ROCK. ^_^

No Longer Exists · **02-06-2014, 05:25 PM**

(02-06-2014, 05:21 PM)synaesthetic Wrote: I don't get why everyone has to tie DRK to two-handed swords. Cecil was a Dark Knight before he became a Paladin, and he used one-handed swords and a shield!

I find it amusing that people are so stuck to the XI idea of the dark knight, but they're opposed to the XI idea of the blue mage. >_>;

Â I mention Great Swords only as a way to tie in with existing classes. That's all.

I find it amusing that people cling to XI as some sort of standard for a series that has 14 plus games worth of lore!

I apologize for being catty, but please swing above the belt. Thanks!

Dogberry · **02-06-2014, 05:54 PM**

(02-06-2014, 04:53 PM)synaesthetic Wrote: I just really think pugilist's other job should be dancer, because they breakdance!

OK, now that I can get behind 100%.

ArmachiA · **02-06-2014, 06:50 PM**

(02-06-2014, 05:21 PM)synaesthetic Wrote: I don't get why everyone has to tie DRK to two-handed swords. Cecil was a Dark Knight before he became a Paladin, and he used one-handed swords and a shield!

Yoshi P has also gone on record and stated he wanted PLD and DRK to be reminiscent of Cecil.

synaesthetic · **02-06-2014, 07:06 PM**

(02-06-2014, 05:54 PM)Dogberry Wrote:
(02-06-2014, 04:53 PM)synaesthetic Wrote: I just really think pugilist's other job should be dancer, because they breakdance!

OK, now that I can get behind 100%.

And when they use their healing abilities, it should play 80s dance music tunes!Â Big Grin

Sophia_Grave · **02-06-2014, 08:14 PM**

I really don't like the way the class/job system is set up in this game.

We've got dozens of unique abilities, but 2 jobs stemming from the same class will ultimately only have 5 abilities that are different. It was okay with with SCH/SMN as the pets introduced much more skills, but that won't really work as well with other jobs.Â

Using the dancer example, it will just be a monk without shoulder tackle, fists of fire and dragon kick :/ And if they go the Bard route with the way they introduce dances, then its not going to feel very fun, honestly.

Of course, I reserve judgement and all till they actually introduce new jobs, but the job system as a whole just seems restrictive with very little perks.

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