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Seriphyn · **03-16-2014, 05:30 AM**

(03-16-2014, 02:38 AM)Faye Wrote:
(03-16-2014, 02:25 AM)Illira Wrote: Hence the 'evil'. I roleplay antagonist characters as characters, not a means to an end. Which is unfortunately what many of these amalgam 'evil' guilds are. They aren't self-sustaining because they don't have a real, motivating reason to work together. They try to hard to say, "ALL THE EVIL THINGS" and don't move outside of that box. Sure, there are arcs, but they often don't make much sense in the larger picture of things.

The point of what I was trying to say is that, antagonistic, unlawful characters work with each other in a different manner by necessity, and yet still need a mutual goal to work towards like any other guild. Those are challenges that have to be addressed when creating an 'evil' aligned guild.

This this this ^ Times a million. ;A;

Yeah, being outright 'evil' is a bit flat and two-dimensional, really. In the real world, who sets out with the intent "I'm going to be super evil for a living, muahahaha"?

Instead, the closest things in real life to what can be described as 'evil' is driven by a much more simple sense of self-interest. As people have already alluded to, a group of those seeking pure self-gain would be a realistically done 'evil' group IMO...in fact the only thing that would say it's evil is our RL moralities.

Ignacius · **03-16-2014, 01:19 PM**

Two observations I can make here:

One, the D&D style order/alignment scale is great for beginning roleplayers who need a grasp of the basics. Â You should discard it at your earliest possible convenience; nobody thinks like that. Â Essentially, the D&D morality scale is built as a summation of two basic character traits, selfishness v. selflessness and discipline v. capriciousness. Â Not only is this a very limited scope of morality, but it's also somewhat inaccurate. Â Many people are willing to be selfless to a point, and sometimes they're willing to do something incredibly selfless on the spur of the moment, but are otherwise selfish pricks. Â Real morality, and realistic characters, have distinct personalities made essentially from a set of stock beliefs modified by their histories.

In short, heroes and villains are decent concepts in the early string of things, but they're really not something you should aim for. Â For instance, Orleans Ignacius is a criminal, a mercenary, a murderer, and all sorts of terrible things. Â He's essentially a thug for hire. Â I wouldn't necessarily call him a villain, though. Â He himself is capable of incredible acts of kindness and selflessness; he simply doesn't see the world the same way many of people do. Â He's something of a ronin, someone roaming haphazardly through life while trying to maintain some semblance of discipline in his life, earning money for himself but ultimately looking out for his partners and organization. Â It's hard to say he's a villain when he's just as likely to look out for the little guy out of a sense of justice as he is to kill him for crossing the wrong people.

The second point is that, based on point one, don't play a hero or a villain. Â Play a concept a bit less nebulous. Â Everyone's doing what they think is best; there aren't many people out there saying, "I'm screwing people over and it's absolutely fine to screw people over because being evil is kewl." Â If you want to play someone of questionable morality, you have to give them a reason to be that way and set out ways in which their behavior manifests. Â Are they crusaders for what they think is right by doing wrong, Robin Hood style? Â Do they just believe everyone would do terrible things if they had a chance and so they indulge in nihilism? Â Are they sick of society and inflicting their vengeance on it and everyone in it for the cruel life they led? Â Are they simply certifiably batshit-insane and think their local tailor is a plant for the demon-worshipping cult of Scions that must be eliminated and disposed of?

All of those "villain" archetypes are also capable of doing things that are positive for society. Â "Heroes" are also VERY capable of doing wrong by society, thinking they are doing what is right and only screwing the system up. Â Maybe they're too strict, too fascist, maybe they have a tendency to be too lenient to terrible people or not forgiving enough to people that stand a chance of redemption.

Really, the best you can do is play a character, not a concept. Â Focus less on heroism and villainy, more on consistency. Â Make sure people are doing things for a reason, not simply to fill a role.

cuideag · **03-16-2014, 01:28 PM**

(03-16-2014, 01:19 PM)Ignacius Wrote: All of those "villain" archetypes are also capable of doing things that are positive for society. Â "Heroes" are also VERY capable of doing wrong by society, thinking they are doing what is right and only screwing the system up. Â Maybe they're too strict, too fascist, maybe they have a tendency to be too lenient to terrible people or not forgiving enough to people that stand a chance of redemption.

Really, the best you can do is play a character, not a concept. Â Focus less on heroism and villainy, more on consistency. Â Make sure people are doing things for a reason, not simply to fill a role.

^ This, 100% this.

One of my favorite roleplayers once said that though her character might be villanous in the stories of other characters, in her own story she is a hero because she is doing what she feels is right. She isn't an antagonist for the sake of being an antagonist and that is a key thing to keep in mind.

My own 'villanous' alt has goals that could be considered quite noble (help end the conflicts in Ala Mhigo and ultimately save lives) but she goes about it in very shady ways because she feels it's most effective. Plus somebody's got to do the dirty work.

Perspective is a heck of a tool. :D

Val · **03-16-2014, 02:05 PM**

Well then! I would say those of us with like-minded interests should get together to discuss some things. We could end up with, at the very least, an FC of individuals and a nice group of people to finally RP with/get some things rolling IC for our less than savory characters =)

Azureus Scipio · **03-16-2014, 05:05 PM**

See, I was Originally planning to gather a lot of people with alts they needed an RP story with, As did I, and I thought what if "A Family or Clan, made up of the different races, but called a clan/family because of their similar intrests have been a clan/family for a while, but since the calamity they had to do what they thought best for the clan, and therefore had to do anything in their power, even resorting to crime and underhandedness to insure their clans survival" Ofcourse, it is still just an Idea, and I would love people to help me build on it, I might start a separate topic if people agree to helping me and joining. because of their views of "Doing whatever we can, even resort to badness" policy they would be viewed as villains and those who knew would view them as bad, where as in retrospect would be more along the lines of Chaotic Neutral,

Since its going to be mainly alts, we can also level together through the game and not have to worry about group finding for dungeons, nor buying stuff off the market if there are people willing to gather and craft items for each other.

TheWizard · **03-16-2014, 10:19 PM**

I've always fancied the idea of playing a sort of anti-villain or something of the sort that would be like lawful-evil or neutral-evil. Someone with a goal and purpose that isn't just evil for evil's sake. Evil needs to be smart, cunning, and planning forward, otherwise it all just falls apart.

Evil groups/societies are typically secretive: you don't find them, THEY find YOU. There are ears which listen in the darkest hours of the night and mouths which whisper promises of more to the desperate.

In a space where there is no room, in a structure that was never built, meets the guild that doesn't exist.

Sophia_Grave · **03-16-2014, 11:32 PM**

I have a villain. I've had some of my best RP of FFXIV on her, but actually getting steady sessions is nigh impossible. And this is coming from a character that appears good, but is actually evil. A lot of the times I have to turn down ideas because she simply wouldn't realistically participate in 'good' arcs and the others aren't comfortable with a saboteur mucking up their plans.

Braddock · **03-22-2014, 04:52 PM**

Hmn. Â Perhaps knowing a bit more of what type of focus you would want the 'evil' character or FC to be is a good start.

In LoTRO, I played a villian character. Â A guard caught in the midst of a scandal, but instead of turning himself in, he ran. Â He got caught up in the 'evil' of the land, though inherently he wasn't evil. Â But he felt there was no way back, so he joined an evil guild etc.

But playing a villian can also burn a person out. Â So many stories I can tell you that RP was ruined because the 'good' side EXPECTED the 'evil' side to just give up and lose. Â How much fun is that? Â Not very much I will tell you. Â History even shows that 'evil' has and can win over 'good'.

So finding that middle ground is very important.

I think if one were to create an 'evil' guild, you would need a cover. Â GW2 has such a guild I was in, where their cover was a well run and established inn/tavern. Â But under it all was a well oiled machine of assassination plots, planned robberies, and more. Â People were put through rigorous applications and looked at closely ICly to make sure they could handle being there and were a good fit.

Even their website reflected this as certain areas opened only when you were of the right rank.

I wish you luck! Â Gilgamesh could use more 'evil' types, even if it is to meddle in the affairs of the 'good' people of Eorzea.

Edgar · **03-22-2014, 06:32 PM**

My favorite example of perspective is the "steal from the rich, give to the poor" ideology.

Basically, you're doing a good thing from your perspective, making the poor, well, not quite as such, but to everyone else, you're freaking stealing. Theft. It's the perfect example of how an act of good can be interpreted as evil, and vice verse.

Magellan · **03-22-2014, 07:25 PM**

(03-15-2014, 07:27 PM)WraithorBobby Wrote: , it would give the good FC's more in the way of RP as they would be fighting villains IC'ly and not the riff-raff with the Garleans.

just wondering your thoughts

I think the major problem with this, with creating villains with the purpose of working against some of the heroes guild, is that major OOC communication must be used. There have been a number of threads on this site bemoaning criminals who seem to get away with whatever they want to, and lawmen who try to arrest people at the drop of a hat. Player vs player interactions of this type are a fertile breeding ground for the type of IC drama that bleeds into OOC.

Consider for instance; a robin hoodesque thief who steals from the rich and gives to the poor. If 'Hood' is only stealing from npcs, then there is no problem, because the player behind 'Hood' is in complete control of how successful he is and whether or not he gets away.

If Hood tries to steal from other players, however, that decision has been removed. You cannot expect to get away lightly, or you may upset their rp sense of justice. Their desire to catch Hood in the act may be as strong as Hoods desire to get away with the deed.

So... OOC communication. Use lots of it, to ensure both sides get an end result they are satisfied with. Otherwise drama will occur.

Miah Polaali · **03-22-2014, 07:57 PM**

I have a few friends who would absolutely love to work with/ against or be apart of a villain FC. If a real one was ever made I would seriously point those people including myself and the people I RP with to possibly organize some RP and get things worked out OOCly.

ArmachiA · **03-23-2014, 08:55 AM**

My FC has a whole alt side thats made to be purely antagonistic (Not evil, but they are Garlean mostly) in order to fight against our "good" characters (Subjective, since we run a darker themed FC) and we have branched out to different people before but I admit we're pretty squeamish about it in general. It requires a lot of OOC communication and a lot of people don't really like doing that. Our villains have hopes and dreams and things all on their own and really think they are doing what they think is right - but playing a Villain is really really hard when everyone wants a piece of you. You tend to get powergamed more often, you have to lose all the time so someone else can be the hero. It can be a PAIN, honestly. I've seen friends who are supposed to be undercover get meta-gamed as being Garlean simpy because they mentioned it OOCly. Somehow someone found out about it ICly when there was no evidence to prove it.

It's really a hassle sometimes

/endrant.

Val · **03-23-2014, 01:35 PM**

(03-23-2014, 08:55 AM)ArmachiA Wrote: My FC has a whole alt side thats made to be purely antagonistic (Not evil, but they are Garlean mostly) in order to fight against our "good" characters (Subjective, since we run a darker themed FC) and we have branched out to different people before but I admit we're pretty squeamish about it in general. It requires a lot of OOC communication and a lot of people don't really like doing that. Our villains have hopes and dreams and things all on their own and really think they are doing what they think is right - but playing a Villain is really really hard when everyone wants a piece of you. You tend to get powergamed more often, you have to lose all the time so someone else can be the hero. It can be a PAIN, honestly. I've seen friends who are supposed to be undercover get meta-gamed as being Garlean simpy because they mentioned it OOCly. Somehow someone found out about it ICly when there was no evidence to prove it.

It's really a hassle sometimes

/endrant.

If someone just "happens" to find out, then I usually have my protagonist just question their reasoning through logic--assuming my protagonist uses logic, and I'm quite fond of them doing so. Generally the metagaming is destroyed ICly because of that and that character ends up looking like a fool and has to apologize. If they don't, then I just try to avoid RP with that person.

It's not that I don't like being caught/found out/whatever. In fact, I'm quite open to the death of all of my characters--including my main. However, I try to avoid people that meta-game knowing things. It just makes for a poisonous RP experience to keep those types around.

That being said, I also have a guy that is purely in it for himself with Faye as his minion of sorts, as well as both of us having Garleans. If you'd like to meet up/RP with us sometime, I'd be more than happy to do so~

Beaveresque · **03-23-2014, 02:13 PM**

I would certainly be interested in playing a villainous role.

Back when I played WoW, I was in an "evil" guild who were allied with the dark cult that drove much of the nasty goings-on leading up to and part of the Cataclysm. It was a lot of fun playing evil with a group that didn't overtly go about declaring their evil-ness in MWAHAHAHA-ing, moustache-twirling villainy.

ansemaru · **03-23-2014, 04:04 PM**

I wouldn't call my primary character "good" by any stretch of the imagination. Certainly, he's kind and good-hearted, but he's also a member of a band of criminals posing as actors, an inveterate liar, a spy, and an Ixal sympathizer. There's not much cackling or moustache-twirling going on, but he's definitely not a good guy.
But I think it's as much a matter of perspective as anything else. Is a free company dedicated to supporting the laws and culture of Gridania or Ul'dah "good" when Gridania is xenophobic and Ul'dah corrupt? Is a free company dedicated to fighting the beast tribes "good" when not all members of the beast tribes are tempered villains? They'd all certainly describe themselves as good, whether or not they are.

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RPC has moved! These pages have been kept for historical purposes