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Saiden · **06-10-2014, 08:46 AM**

(06-10-2014, 12:27 AM)Hiroshu Wrote: I daydream about a similar imaginary MMO.Â

That's basically my hang up with open world games: it's kind of a quest grind. That's actually had me hesitant to play FFXIV until now because while WoW was a striking change from FFXI, after awhile you realize you're still grinding either way, but with questing they're just adding a bunch of a text you have to read in between the fighting, and in between that you're still just running around. Unless there's a robust quest tracker, at which point the quest text becomes superfluous and even more tedious because you're just button pressing through windows. What I really, really wish is for a more open-ended MMO that is built more around actual role playing, and less about stat progression.

Have you heard of No Man's Sky? I'm really looking forward to that one. I just want to be an explorer at the end of the day, and that's always hard to make in a game with all the limits current technology puts on the size of high quality game worlds. But I digress.

I enjoy current MMOs as long as the setting is one I enjoy, but yes it does feel as if the market is so full now that quick games of the same structure are par for the course. MMO players are a different breed now than they used to be - most players do not stick with a game for several years on end, they hop from one new MMO to the next grinding to the top as fast as they can to see if they like the endgame progression. There was a great article in Wired about it a while back. The old style of game where people spent years (EVE Online just hit its tenth anniversery and is actually growing) in it has kind of disappeared. The majority of players switch MMOs multiple times a year.

I do enjoy MMOs, but I need a setting I like, an endgame PvE progression (that was the problem with Elder Scrolls Online - there is literally no endgame progression), and preferably some fun people I have met.

Most of the innovation in gaming is in different genres now. MMOs have become a static genre, much like RTS games. Adventure games, games that push the boundaries of game versus film (Heavy Rain), and the like are what push the innovation in the genre now.

I put myself on the No Man's Sky mailing list a few days ago, but I have sort of reached the point now that I do not ever look forward to an MMO or have high expectations. That does not mean I will not enjoy them when they are released, but I just do not see the point in having high expectations - being different and innovative rarely pays the bills. The majority of gamers want something they can get the hang of in five minutes, grind to endgame progression in less than a month, and finish the progression within four months.

All of that said, I have found that the less time I have to play an MMO the more I enjoy it. As my offline life is busy, I do not have time to play a game for 4+ hours a day like I did when I was younger. It helps stop it from feeling like a grind, keeps the world fresh, etcetera. The only downside is that leveling is so slow that endgame is already chock full of experienced people that have done it all already and it can become difficult to get plugged in to experience the content. And the same goes with roleplaying - the less time you have to play, the later you arrive in a game, the higher chance there is that cliques have already been formed and it becomes more difficult to become involved.

**06-10-2014, 02:41 PM**

(06-10-2014, 08:46 AM)Saiden Wrote: I enjoy current MMOs as long as the setting is one I enjoy, but yes it does feel as if the market is so full now that quick games of the same structure are par for the course. MMO players are a different breed now than they used to be - most players do not stick with a game for several years on end, they hop from one new MMO to the next grinding to the top as fast as they can to see if they like the endgame progression. There was a great article in Wired about it a while back. The old style of game where people spent years (EVE Online just hit its tenth anniversery and is actually growing) in it has kind of disappeared. The majority of players switch MMOs multiple times a year.

On that note, I just saw this article the other day: Red 5 Studios: I think WoW killed a genre

Sadly, I had to agree with him. I say sadly because I do have a lot of fond memories from my years in WoW, but I did get the sense that the new approach it brought to the genre took a toll on the vastly different experience I had playing FFXI, where leveling up was, itself, the experience of the game, and not just a means to an end. Leveling felt more like an accomplishment, and certainly a more social activity.

Quote:Most of the innovation in gaming is in different genres now. MMOs have become a static genre, much like RTS games. Adventure games, games that push the boundaries of game versus film (Heavy Rain), and the like are what push the innovation in the genre now.

I put myself on the No Man's Sky mailing list a few days ago, but I have sort of reached the point now that I do not ever look forward to an MMO or have high expectations. That does not mean I will not enjoy them when they are released, but I just do not see the point in having high expectations - being different and innovative rarely pays the bills. The majority of gamers want something they can get the hang of in five minutes, grind to endgame progression in less than a month, and finish the progression within four months.

I remember for a time after WoW came out, I found myself thinking, "Why can't more games be low-investment like this?" Be careful what you wish for, right? After FFXI, it felt like a good change. But now I feel the best path lies somewhere in between these two vastly different routes. I was wary going into FFXIV, having read some people complaining that all the new transportation opportunities have taken away something that made FFXI feel special, which was that sense of grand exploration. I remember sitting down with a meal to watch my character run across three different zones while occasionally course-correcting to avoid dangerous mobs. Sure, that became tedious sometimes, but that scale is a lot of the reason I got into the game to begin with (and I was young enough to have that kind of time). I don't entirely blame developers for having a tough time trying to find the right balance between this and convenience, and you're right, it feels like other genres are having to pick up the slack in the wake of the WoW trend.

Quote:The only downside is that leveling is so slow that endgame is already chock full of experienced people that have done it all already and it can become difficult to get plugged in to experience the content. And the same goes with roleplaying - the less time you have to play, the later you arrive in a game, the higher chance there is that cliques have already been formed and it becomes more difficult to become involved.

Yup. I didn't realize how lucky I was to start FFXI, my first MMO, only a week after the PS2 launch. This meant I rode the wave of an influx of new players, so there was plenty of camaraderie in the trenches to go around. That really made the experience for me. I haven't actively played an MMO for years now, so I find myself trying to seek out another community of newer players to learn the ropes with together. That's what brought me to these forums.

Saiden · **06-10-2014, 02:56 PM**

(06-10-2014, 02:41 PM)Hiroshu Wrote: I remember for a time after WoW came out, I found myself thinking, "Why can't more games be low-investment like this?" Be careful what you wish for, right? After FFXI, it felt like a good change. But now I feel the best path lies somewhere in between these two vastly different routes. I was wary going into FFXIV, having read some people complaining that all the new transportation opportunities have taken away something that made FFXI feel special, which was that sense of grand exploration. I remember sitting down with a meal to watch my character run across three different zones while occasionally course-correcting to avoid dangerous mobs. Sure, that became tedious sometimes, but that scale is a lot of the reason I got into the game to begin with (and I was young enough to have that kind of time). I don't entirely blame developers for having a tough time trying to find the right balance between this and convenience, and you're right, it feels like other genres are having to pick up the slack in the wake of the WoW trend.

I suppose I never had that feeling in an MMO. I played WoW many years ago for a brief time purely because so many offline friends started playing it, but I had a hard time getting into it. It was not my setting, my style, or writing I enjoyed. There tends to be very specific styles of fantasy that I enjoy, the genre as a whole is very hit or miss with me. For example, I do not watch Game of Thrones but I just read the first book because people would not stop pestering me about it. I found it dreadfully boring - obviously, this is not a reflection of Martin or the work itself, simply a preference of the reader.

Quote:Yup. I didn't realize how lucky I was to start FFXI, my first MMO, only a week after the PS2 launch. This meant I rode the wave of an influx of new players, so there was plenty of camaraderie in the trenches to go around. That really made the experience for me. I haven't actively played an MMO for years now, so I find myself trying to seek out another community of newer players to learn the ropes with together. That's what brought me to these forums.

That has been my perpetual frustration with MMOs in the past - I tend to come along late in the formulation of the community and it brings with it various obstacles. That and I simply do not have time to play for long, long periods of time anymore. So naturally, communities tend to revolve around those that do have the time to spend. That is normal.

I am hoping that ARR can be that game I play for a long time to come, sometimes logging in for an hour sometimes longer. See all the content there is to see, try to be more relaxed and less of a "gamer," and just meet some new folks along the way.

**06-12-2014, 05:41 PM**

(06-10-2014, 02:56 PM)Saiden Wrote: I am hoping that ARR can be that game I play for a long time to come, sometimes logging in for an hour sometimes longer. See all the content there is to see, try to be more relaxed and less of a "gamer," and just meet some new folks along the way.

You know, having played FFXI, and assuming FFXIV is anything like that community, then I suspect this can very easily be that kind of experience for you. I mean, just look at the fact that FFXI is still being maintained and updated to this day. I never felt an external rush to level and progress in FFXI, despite it being more "hardcore" as a game than recent MMOs. The Linkshell system in this one seems pretty ingenious as far as social connectivity is concerned, given that you can equip multiple linkshells at a time, giving you access to a lot of different chat channels to meet up with people. My experience between FFXI and WoW led me to feel as though FF players are more communal and cooperative than WoW players (WoW had some great PVP, but that also fueled a much more competitive environment). Plus, look at the two different franchises, and what kind of audience they draw. Warcraft, and Starcraft by extension, are very competitive games, while the common theme throughout Final Fantasy is making and helping new friends. I think those contrasting themes breed the kind of player community you can find in each franchise.

On top of that, I've always experienced role players to be more communal than "gamers." Some play for the experience, some play for the game. Experience-oriented players would appear, to me, to be more empathetic to the experiences of their peers.Â

In short, I'd say the early signs suggest we came to the right place to find what we're both looking for.

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Um, hi.

RPC has moved! These pages have been kept for historical purposes