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+--- Thread: Lore Reasons:White Mage? (/showthread.php?tid=10545)
RE: Lore Reasons:White Mage? - Gone. - 03-12-2015
This is why I've long believed MMOs should do away with single player storytelling all together because it causes nothing but confusion and disagreement over something that really isn't that hard to figure out.
(03-12-2015, 04:30 AM)Tiergan Wrote: Along the same vein, because of the way the White Mage quest is presented, your character is the 'lone and only chosen hero' who ever gets to be a White Mage while no one else save the Padjal get to have that special privilege. Â While some job quests might simply be one scenario out of many - in the case of the White Mage quest, you literally only got to be a White Mage because some other long dead guy's white mage stone up and specifically, personally selects you to be the first and only non-padjal white mage in ages. Â This spirit likely did not have multiple white-mage stones just hanging about in the shroud waiting for more adventurers to come around. Â Just like our characters only have one job stone - he likely only had one job stone to give out as well. Â Meanwhile, the Elementals are still very much against letting anyone non-padjal learn the art of succor.
I just really don't understand where this interpretation comes from because it makes several assumptions that seem ridiculous in the grand scheme of things:
A. The only Padjal in the entire land happen to be the five NPCs referenced in 2.0.
B. If not that, then they all think the same like a series of clones even though they all come from differing backgrounds.
C. This is the only way to do it.
D. That the reliance on the so-called will of the elementals is actually something more than exaggeration and superstition.
A lot of this obviously absurd imo, but what really settles it is the official site disagrees with it outright:
Quote:Although the art subsequently became forbidden, it is now in the midst of a revival at the hands of the Padjal, chosen of the elementals.
tl;dr ignore MSQ content as some sort of de facto rule set for roleplay. Inspiration? Sure, but anything more than that is severely limiting yourself and others around you over one of but countless stories happening all across Eorzea, all but our own created simply for the sake of story-driven single player gameplay shoehorned into an MMO and nothing more.
(03-12-2015, 04:30 AM)Tiergan Wrote: All this said -- if you want to RP as though there is a slow revival of all of the job classes happening, I'm pretty sure you'll probably find some people willing to roll with that. Â Just RP whatever is most fun for you and find others that align with your interests.
Also that.
RE: Lore Reasons:White Mage? - ArmachiA - 03-12-2015
I interpreted that to mean it was seeing a revival among the Padjal - those chosen to access the Succor - and not the Padjal running around teaching everyone.
You're going to run into people who won't really like WHMs running around without any lore to back up that it's possible (This is me -- considering assuming there are other avenues is a huge leap considering something sentient and ANGRY at mortals guards the gates of even becoming a WHM. The Elementals have to say yes, because they control who can and cannot access the Succor. If someone tried without their permission, well they'd probably cut them off immediately afterwards permanently) and others who do not care so much. Tiergan is right, you can rp however you like. I, however, strongly disagree with the players ability to be WHMs until the devs open up new avenues.
RE: Lore Reasons:White Mage? - Maril - 03-12-2015
(03-12-2015, 05:13 AM)hauntmedoitagain Wrote: This is why I've long believed MMOs should do away with single player storytelling all together because it causes nothing but confusion and disagreement over something that really isn't that hard to figure out.
(03-12-2015, 04:30 AM)Tiergan Wrote: Along the same vein, because of the way the White Mage quest is presented, your character is the 'lone and only chosen hero' who ever gets to be a White Mage while no one else save the Padjal get to have that special privilege. Â While some job quests might simply be one scenario out of many - in the case of the White Mage quest, you literally only got to be a White Mage because some other long dead guy's white mage stone up and specifically, personally selects you to be the first and only non-padjal white mage in ages. Â This spirit likely did not have multiple white-mage stones just hanging about in the shroud waiting for more adventurers to come around. Â Just like our characters only have one job stone - he likely only had one job stone to give out as well. Â Meanwhile, the Elementals are still very much against letting anyone non-padjal learn the art of succor.
I just really don't understand where this interpretation comes from because it makes several assumptions that seem ridiculous in the grand scheme of things:
A. The only Padjal in the entire land happen to be the five NPCs referenced in 2.0.
B. If not that, then they all think the same like a series of clones even though they all come from differing backgrounds.
C. This is the only way to do it.
D. That the reliance on the so-called will of the elementals is actually something more than exaggeration and superstition.
A lot of this obviously absurd imo, but what really settles it is the official site disagrees with it outright:
Quote:Although the art subsequently became forbidden, it is now in the midst of a revival at the hands of the Padjal, chosen of the elementals.
Just wanted to say that I do not see what Tiergan said as an interpretation of the lore, it is pretty much what the story tells you when you read it through. S.E does a lot of single-player writing because that is what sells, people play games because they want to feel special in the story - Heck, even I enjoy the way that the MSQ is written. It sucks for us roleplayers because it puts some restrictions down on what is obtainable, but you can't really go in and say that's possible just because the restriction comes out of that origin. At the same time I find it very natural for any universe to have some things that aren't obtainable for everyone, it encourages people to think in alternatives - Conjurers are pretty strong as is. I do not see the need for any player to go out and single-handedly craft a way to make it possible - even if it might be, that's the responsibility of the lore-devs.Â
As I mentioned earlier, it's a style-choice for each individual to make with what they want to go with. However, I think it's very healthy for anyone planning to play a whitemage to know that there's a sizeable chunk of the community that thinks otherwise and may end up not accepting it when their character gets told someone is a whitemage. Because of their choice in how they play by the lore, not because they want to be a meanypants. Understanding that not everyone thinks the same and accepting this is really important for any situation in RP, but especially this.
I'm managing just fine to roleplay with people that have twists in their stories that my characters could never acknowledge, because these people accepted this and simply went "We wont ever tell them, then". Â
That's my two gil on it anyways.
Edit: Also, we might see some new twists in Heavensward as I presume they're going to explain if or not the Au Ra lands have conjurers, and if they do them how - since right now all conjurers are pretty much taught in the same place. If there has been a bunch of conjurers up there whilst the rest of us were busy not noticing that area of the world, they may have different twists to their practice as opposed to the way that stillglade fane does it.
RE: Lore Reasons:White Mage? - Warren Castille - 03-12-2015
(03-12-2015, 05:13 AM)hauntmedoitagain Wrote: I just really don't understand where this interpretation comes from because it makes several assumptions that seem ridiculous in the grand scheme of things:
A. The only Padjal in the entire land happen to be the five NPCs referenced in 2.0.
B. If not that, then they all think the same like a series of clones even though they all come from differing backgrounds.
C. This is the only way to do it.
D. That the reliance on the so-called will of the elementals is actually something more than exaggeration and superstition.
A lot of this obviously absurd imo, but what really settles it is the official site disagrees with it outright:
Quote:Although the art subsequently became forbidden, it is now in the midst of a revival at the hands of the Padjal, chosen of the elementals.
1) The Padjal aren't a populace species. It's not unreasonable to think there'd be so few of them.
2) Given that they exist to be the human trustees of the elementals, it's not unreasonable that they'd act in a similar way.
3+4) The "so called" will of the elementals is a very real thing. The Shroud is sentient, sort of, and while it's weakened from the time of 1.0, succor is literally a gift given from the elementals to wield. It currently IS the only way to wield it, as confirmed at Fanfest: The lore panel stated there are people working on a way to twist succor away from the elementals for their personal use, and it was heavily implied this is a villainous thing to do.
The blurb for WHM on the official site is also speaking of post-2.0 continuity. If we're correct to interpret that they're referring to the job coming commonplace thanks to the Padjals trying to teach people how to wield it (which itself is ridiculous, because it isn't theirs to lend or teach), that's still referring to years after Carteneau. White Mages are heavily restricted lore-wise, and if I'm remembering my lore correctly the padjal are only trusted with it (and by proxy, the Midlander Main Character through the story quest) because the elementals can tell they have no capacity for evil or misuse in their heart.
It's very tricky to write around. People shouldn't feel discouraged from doing so, but they should accept that stating they have succor means they have to behave very, very strictly. It's easier to just wear white robes and be a conjurer, but for some people folks see the title and latch onto it, as if that in and of itself means anything in roleplay.
As an aside, I appreciate the lore team telling us that yes, Midlander is the main character, and yes, all of the canon story hinges on his deeds- He's the one that clears Coil, he's the one at Carteneau, he's the one who faces Ultima Weapon, etc. As someone ignoring the MSQ in my own stories it's nice to know who's working in the background.
RE: Lore Reasons:White Mage? - Aduu Avagnar - 03-12-2015
The Padjal were created, by the elementals, from the populace of Gelmorra after the treaty/pact/thing was signed. They were created to be the living/mortal guardians of Succor.
It was literally confirmed by Fernwhales, that only YOU, the MSQ character learned Succor in the way presented by the game, but that there are other groups attempting to learn to harness the power through more nefarious means.
RE: Lore Reasons:White Mage? - Heart Quintessence - 03-12-2015
Intruiging. Thank you all for your beliefs,views and contributions!
 I think I am getting to see how FFXIV:ARR's story plays out without actually playing. (So now to go on Gilgamesh and transfer to Balmung- I think so I can hang with most of you).
 So ARR's MSQ has stated that the Midlander male in the opening (The Warrior WoL I guess), is actually the MAIN Character and all the characters we play are... what?
Alternative universe versions of him/her/ (and races), or are we all the MSQ maincharacter?
 So then how do we deal with the WoL White Mage who is in the opening cut seen (the Lalafell Lady.) Is she the 'only lore specific' white mage in the entire game (By Lore)...
Gosh so complex.
 So now with out of the way, is Conjurer can heal, but a White mage specializes it ( and there by received the Succor from the elementals, to have the Job... how does this stack up to our characters. To those (lets call them PCs (player characters.)
 Also someone mention that none of the PCs (i.e. people with humans at the keyboards) are Hyadaelen's Chosen , but MSQ says we are?
 PErhaps its time to have some.. kinds of explination for various interprreations that happen in game?
Basically maybe we need to make stickies about possible ideas on how to do both 'lore appropriete' or at least ideas on what could be considered and consise lore appropriete ideas for certains jobs?
RE: Lore Reasons:White Mage? - Aduu Avagnar - 03-12-2015
The Derplander and his companions, are, as I see it, placeholders. They represent the different groups of adventurers that were there at Cartenau and timeskipped.Â
And of course, you have to remember that this was the ARR trailer, they're going to want to show you the iconic stuff in the video. It's there to get you to buy the game, so they want the stuff that people know and will remember.
as for being Hydaelyns chosen, I think it is acceptable to state that there are many. In one of the cutscenes where you see Hydaelyn, you see others also around her. (There's a hella lot)
RE: Lore Reasons:White Mage? - Warren Castille - 03-12-2015
It's... hazy. The Warrior from the opening cutscene (hereto referred as "Midlander") has been the player-proxy through all of the overarching narrative. On one hand, it's just the model they used when showing off dungeons and stuff. On the other hand, it's safe to assume that HE is the one doing all of the main story stuff if we, the players, choose not to incorporate that into our own stories. To try and explain it a little better...
If you decide your character is THE Warrior of Light, then ignore Midlander. If, however, you decide that you are NOT the one who completes the main story, then Midlander does it in our stead.
When completing the main story as the game, my character was the one who traveled the land all over, met and befriended powerful allies, and ultimately was the central reason that the good guys win. In my roleplay, though, haha no Warren isn't anything like that, he's never met those people, and he's definitely not the Chosen One. For my purposes, I just assume Midlander did all of it.
You do bring up a tricky situation with the opening CS, though; What is the white mage doing there? The lore for WHM has been difficult even since 1.18 introduced it, but I can't reasonably answer your question! I'm stumped.
It's important to split what the main story says about us and what we decide for our characters. Do you want to be one of Hydaelyn's Chosen, gifted with the Echo and all that entails? The main story says you are. Some people, though, don't want to have anything so grandiose or burdensome on their character. Who we are during dungeons and quests and stuff isn't always who we are in character. It can get complicated.
RE: Lore Reasons:White Mage? - Heart Quintessence - 03-12-2015
Yeah re watching the trailer is why I asked the question: I had remembered reading that WHM was... restricted, but in the Battle of Cartenau.. There is White Mage healing hte wounds of Midlander (Lalafell POWER!).. which would seem to contradict lore?
 So perhaps its a weird Lore hiccup, or perhaps its best that we think about  ceating a psot about possible ways and ideas for people to encorporate classes- or at least their abilities ( though we know that the Guilds are an IC thing).
I mean my little Miqo'te ( I think I have to name her soon, because typing that out is a pain).
Also guilds normally didn't want their secrets spread so all the PCS joining the DoH, DoL,DoM and DoW, guilds is actually super unusual.
RE: Lore Reasons:White Mage? - entropyrat - 03-12-2015
(03-12-2015, 04:06 AM)ArmachiA Wrote: No there isn't?
If you mean more than one person who time skipped, yes that's true. However the Devs confirmed in Fanfest there's only one WoL - the main hero - he is the only person who became the WHM or the BLM or whatever - he's the only one who has the ECho, is Hydalaen's chosen, and working with the Scions. Just one. Devs said so right at Fanfest.
Touching on the mention of the Echo in this post. Can this be confirmed with a link to the Dev's words? While I was under the impression that the Echo was very rare, I didn't believe that there was just a single sole person gifted with it either. So I'd like to see some actual backing to that claims.
Cheers.
RE: Lore Reasons:White Mage? - Gegenji - 03-12-2015
(03-12-2015, 08:44 AM)entropyrat Wrote: While I was under the impression that the Echo was very rare, I didn't believe that there was just a single sole person gifted with it either.
Well, we know Minfilia has it as well, so there's a second person.
RE: Lore Reasons:White Mage? - Aduu Avagnar - 03-12-2015
(03-12-2015, 08:42 AM)Heart Quintessence Wrote: Yeah re watching the trailer is why I asked the question: I had remembered reading that WHM was... restricted, but in the Battle of Cartenau.. There is White Mage healing hte wounds of Midlander (Lalafell POWER!).. which would seem to contradict lore?As I said, the whole reason they are in Job Gear at all is because they want Iconic gear for the trailer. They want people to look and go: That's a White Mage, That's a Black mage, etc.
 So perhaps its a weird Lore hiccup, or perhaps its best that we think about  ceating a psot about possible ways and ideas for people to encorporate classes- or at least their abilities ( though we know that the Guilds are an IC thing).
I mean my little Miqo'te ( I think I have to name her soon, because typing that out is a pain).
Also guilds normally didn't want their secrets spread so all the PCS joining the DoH, DoL,DoM and DoW, guilds is actually super unusual.
I firmly believe that it was simply a marketing tool, as opposed to anything relating to the lore.
RE: Lore Reasons:White Mage? - Kage - 03-12-2015
(03-12-2015, 08:44 AM)entropyrat Wrote:I'm pretty sure that the Echo isn't WoL - main character only. It's just that there is only ONE warrior of light. The idea in an mmo is that THE player (YOU!) is the ONE main Warrior of Light. But this does not completely work out RP-wise.(03-12-2015, 04:06 AM)ArmachiA Wrote: No there isn't?
If you mean more than one person who time skipped, yes that's true. However the Devs confirmed in Fanfest there's only one WoL - the main hero - he is the only person who became the WHM or the BLM or whatever - he's the only one who has the ECho, is Hydalaen's chosen, and working with the Scions. Just one. Devs said so right at Fanfest.
Touching on the mention of the Echo in this post. Can this be confirmed with a link to the Dev's words? While I was under the impression that the Echo was very rare, I didn't believe that there was just a single sole person gifted with it either. So I'd like to see some actual backing to that claims.
Cheers.
There's no direct post of it but you can find the words in Fanfest Vegas Lore Panel. Some did live reactions/transcribing. http://ffxiv-roleplayers.com/showthread.php?tid=8695&pid=117271#pid117271
RE: Lore Reasons:White Mage? - Aya - 03-12-2015
Its the Echo versus Blessing of Hydaelen thing again.. all over again! Again!Â
To many of the character's around here, anyone claiming to be a White Mage in-character is probably considered a charlatan. That's usually how such things work in RP, you can claim and do whatever you like, but everyone determines their own canon one way or another either by playing along or not - especially when it comes to things that are not well supported by lore :-]
There's no reason someone couldn'tt be a Conjurer who specializes in healing, although there are inherent dangers in that (as presented in the Conjurer quest chain). It could also be interesting to be a healer, who perhaps through a twist of good-fortune can channel some amount of healing magic in addition to the use of herbs, tonics, tinctures, bandages, and assorted salves and remedies
RE: Lore Reasons:White Mage? - ProvaDiServo - 03-12-2015
(03-12-2015, 08:50 AM)Nakoli Chalahko Wrote:(03-12-2015, 08:42 AM)Heart Quintessence Wrote: Yeah re watching the trailer is why I asked the question: I had remembered reading that WHM was... restricted, but in the Battle of Cartenau.. There is White Mage healing hte wounds of Midlander (Lalafell POWER!).. which would seem to contradict lore?As I said, the whole reason they are in Job Gear at all is because they want Iconic gear for the trailer. They want people to look and go: That's a White Mage, That's a Black mage, etc.
 So perhaps its a weird Lore hiccup, or perhaps its best that we think about  ceating a psot about possible ways and ideas for people to encorporate classes- or at least their abilities ( though we know that the Guilds are an IC thing).
I mean my little Miqo'te ( I think I have to name her soon, because typing that out is a pain).
Also guilds normally didn't want their secrets spread so all the PCS joining the DoH, DoL,DoM and DoW, guilds is actually super unusual.
I firmly believe that it was simply a marketing tool, as opposed to anything relating to the lore.
But wouldn't the same effect have worked if they provided the pvp gear they have? say the ilvl100 things?