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+--- Thread: Killing your character ~ Thoughts? (/showthread.php?tid=16648)
RE: Killing your character ~ Thoughts? - Nero - 07-06-2016
1. Have you killed your character before?
Yep. The character death was a logical and foreshadowed ending to a storyline.
2. How did your friends take it?
For the most part it was a tragic but well-conceived ending, although there was some lamentation that the character did not get fleshed out to his fullest potential, which I agree with. The death was had good set-up and context (and was maybe a little contrived), but there was (perhaps inevitably) things missing from the character before it happened. In some way, that highlights the tragedy of death even more; no person ever has a "complete" story by the time it ends.
3. Would you not want to RP with someone who may unceremoniously kill off their character? Why?
Depends on how it's done and what it accomplishes, if anything. I'm always paying attention to the narrative structure of a roleplay, so I might get peeved if the death is arbitrary or done for the sake of edginess or attention. The rule I use is that death shouldn't be a definitive end but should open up new opportunities and avenues to explore. Deaths that fail to do these things and are just out of nowhere are not particularly compelling.
RE: Killing your character ~ Thoughts? - Valence - 07-06-2016
People said most of it already pretty well above.
1. Have you killed your character before?
I don't think I have yet in any game, but I have had to deal with it from other people (rarely). It was not necessarily always death, but something eventually pretty similar in terms of consequences, like disappearance, or just a character turning on mine and getting the hell out of their life.
2. How did your friends take it?
I'm not going to repeat all the good advice said above but instead will give a few examples I had to deal with. I took it like I had to, because eventually I had no choice on the matter.Â
The character I had for 8 years on eve online got at some point (somewhere in the middle) involved in a romance. The other party eventually disappeared due to lack of motivation and left the game... To get back in 6 months later, staying like 2 months, and got out again. We talked about it OOC, which was the thing to do. It turned tricky though since the player wasn't really departing as if he was leaving the game. It implied that he could return (like it's often the case after all). So it was not a death proper, but it eventually entered in a similar case. How to explain it? I feel even if we talked about it a bit OOCly, it wasn't enough eventually. I got stuck in a situation where the idea was mostly "they continue to see each other maybe". So all in all it was kinda the opposite of your situation, but I think it's still interesting, because eventually the player dropped off the radar and I was ultimately left with something, without knowing what that something was. Disappearance? Death? I could have chosen the later but then what if the player comes back? "Oh I thought you were dead!" works fine ICly, but still.Â
On FF I recently had one player with a character involving into something closing on romance (or something) deciding to move on another server (for totally legitimate reasons, but that's not the point). Same here, had to discuss it with the player. Death? Disappearance? It was left up to me. It's fine, but it also implies for the player taking the decision to leave or kill a character, to be 100% sure of the thing. And then, actually live with it, as said in all the posts above.
Again it boils down to discussing things to the bone with your partner(s), then deciding precisely what it will be and nothing else. Either if you decide to kill your character, or drop off the game, be sure to leave everything written covering each possibility, because otherwise if one side falls into a case that wasn't discussed properly, that side might get screwed...
3. Would you not want to RP with someone who may unceremoniously kill off their character? Why?
As long as it's made mutually agreeable and all.. No problem for me. But that's me, and not everyone else. That's the thing to keep in mind.
As people have said above, I would be annoyed if it was to come back to life a month later, or creating new characters to die again and again because the player is just being fickle... Being fickled is the bane here. It's also better if it has a real drama value, otherwise, what's the point? To fill up a whim? Fine then, but that's always nice to jump on the occasion and make it worthwhile for everyone involved!
RE: Killing your character ~ Thoughts? - Varinh - 07-06-2016
(07-06-2016, 07:29 AM)LadyRochester Wrote: Their reasoning doesn't seem to go beyond:
"BECAUSE I DON'T WANT MY CHARACTER TO BE SADD!!1!" So, I have a few questions for the RPC regarding character death.
Hmm. It might be a matter of lack of context but I'd be minorly annoyed if my story telling took a back burner to how my friends wanted their characters to be happy/comfortable, but then again I'm a roleplayer that adores dipping into more mature roleplay and finding others of similar mind.
Anyways!
1. Have you killed your character before?
Yes, many over the years! Mostly a matter of story telling, once my rolls were simply god awful so my roleplaying main at the time really kicked the bucket. He died defending the people he loved, at least. And people cried for him, so it was very sweet. Honestly, the most absolutely thrilling, edge of the seat and getting me shaking roleplay was when my character was threatened death after being stalked by an enemy and when I was unprepared for it oocly (as in it was bound to happen I knew but not when haha). To this day, that adrenaline of "oh man this character I poured so much into, that has so much life left might die" was intense. Her surviving that encounter by her wits and strategy alone made ripples in her circle. Her death would have made waves. No matter how it ended, the development and enjoyment it brought was incredible.
2. How did your friends take it?
Always well. The folks I roleplayed with throughout these story lines are no spring chickens to roleplay and have enough roleplaying experience under their belt to know that sometimes, death just happens. The way we always saw it was it's a lot more fun for a character and a roleplayer to remember just how mortal you are and arguably makes for more realistic (selfish or martyristic) responses to gut-wrenching terror. Actually, come to think of it, there was one guy who was upset at the prospect of my character dying, but we were roleplaying a blooming romance at the time and since his character was "close to home" we'll say he got really upset oocly which proved a bit problematic after the ordeal which is probably why I have such a firm opinion today. Now when I see things like that happening I'm like "Red lights! Red lights! Possible ooc mixing with ic!"
3. Would you not want to RP with someone who may unceremoniously kill off their character? Why?
Hmm. Depends on the definition of unceremoniously but assuming it means out of the blue and for no rhyme or reason I'd kind of tick my head to the side, but it's not MY character and my enjoyment is no more important than yours. I want to emphasis that. You do what you enjoy. Being conscious of what others enjoy makes you an aware friend, but character death is a natural thing and not something to be afraid of. (Well, for the character at least!) But if someone brought a realistic fear of death into the roleplay, bringing forth a real consequence to actions? I'd want to roleplay with them in a heart beat so long as it's not murder hoboing haha.
I've seen some folks mention someones character dying to incite drama or attention, and admittedly I've never seen it firsthand myself so I didn't think of that at first. I think that would annoy me as well, particularly if the death wasn't permanent. I'm of the belief that roleplay doesn't always make sense, that's what happens when you get a bunch of random people roleplaying together, but amongst friends I want to create the most satisfying and thrilling roleplay for everyone.
RE: Killing your character ~ Thoughts? - Kilieit - 07-06-2016
(07-06-2016, 01:17 PM)Velour Wrote:(07-06-2016, 07:29 AM)LadyRochester Wrote: Their reasoning doesn't seem to go beyond:
"BECAUSE I DON'T WANT MY CHARACTER TO BE SADD!!1!" So, I have a few questions for the RPC regarding character death.
Hmm. It might be a matter of lack of context but I'd be minorly annoyed if my story telling took a back burner to how my friends wanted their characters to be happy/comfortable, but then again I'm a roleplayer that adores dipping into more mature roleplay and finding others of similar mind.
I think that's the ever-vital "OOC > IC" thing.
"It makes me feel bad OOC and I don't want to touch it" is, sorry, a 100% viable reason to not want to partake in a certain RP plot. And "but (character name) would be sad!" is 99% of the time a more socially-accepted way of saying "but I would be sad!".
OOC is more important than IC. Preserving real life people's feelings is important and should be a priority in any social hobby, which RP intrinsically is.
But: the fact that OOC is more important than IC doesn't mean that the solution is not killing your character.
If someone is very upset by something you are adamant you want to do in your RP, it just means that you and the person have different priorities and limits with regards to what you find fun in an RP. These differences may be irreconcilable; they may not be. The only way to find out whether they are or not is to talk, with said person, about said differences.
Which can be a difficult discussion. On both parts, it requires a certain amount of self-awareness (knowing what you want and why) and humility (admitting that what you want isn't "objectively best", and that other people are allowed to want different things). But honestly, even if you don't have that talk, someone's going to be upset and the storyline is going to be affected quality-wise or tainted with OOC hard feelings.
"Just do it anyway, who cares what other people think" will often end up with the person not RPing with you any more anyway; because you showed a disregard for their real, OOC feelings in favour of fiction, and that's not a trait you usually want in a friend. IMO, it's better to discuss it beforehand and - if necessary - part amiably than to burn bridges like this.
"Keep your character alive, it's not worth losing the friendship over" is also a bad idea. It means gutting your enjoyment and satisfaction out of the plot. I find I'm intuitively aware of when it's time for my character to die, and trying to sustain them beyond that point results in an empty shell of who they used to be; it's sad. And, again in my experience, I find it usually results in me slow-fading and eventually quitting from the roleplay in question anyway. I'd rather talk about it and try to find a way that we can both get what we want and enjoy.
I always - extreme circumstances notwithstanding - think it's better to communicate like adults about what you want, what they want, and how you can both achieve it.
Sometimes that means making changes to the characters' relationship so the death won't affect that particular person's roleplay in the way they dislike. There are lots of ways you can do this. Figuring out how to rewrite the past, or even the future, of your characters' time together so that both of you can achieve the resolution you want can be satisfying in itself.
Most potential retcons are going to look kind of convoluted at first, but the "right one" will usually click into place once you hit upon it. It all depends on exactly why they don't want your character's death to happen - what is it they're worried about? Then figure out a retcon (or future character development!) to avoid that, while still allowing you to do what you want to do with your own character (in this case, kill them off). Talk about it together with the aim of building something you can both be happy with.
Sometimes actually talking about why you want to kill the character, and the new opportunities it opens up, actually brings the person around and they end up feeling positive about the new direction. If they're not aware of the context behind your decision, it can seem pointless and sensationalist. If you have a solid reason, making said reason clear can make the decision clearer, too.
Whether you're the one who wants to kill your character, or the one upset about your friend doing so, talk about it. And listen to what they have to say for their side, too. Roleplay is supposed to be a collaborative endeavour, and I don't think that should stop applying when you disagree over something that's supposed to be a tool to greater enjoyment.
That's my 2p, anyway (more like 2£ now - bad at brevity as ever, lol).
RE: Killing your character ~ Thoughts? - ExAtomos - 07-06-2016
(07-06-2016, 07:29 AM)LadyRochester Wrote:
1. Have you killed your character before?
2. How did your friends take it?
3. Would you not want to RP with someone who may unceremoniously kill off their character? Why?
1. Sort of. Ralin had to fake his own death to escape a very real chance of death. Throughout the RP lead up and event itself, the chance of his IC actual death was really really high. It was hella fun tbh; my mind was continuously racing, thinking "omg will this be the end? Can he get out of it this time?"
2. I have a few answers for this one.
- "Don't do something you'll regret later." <--- Best piece of advice right there. A RP buddy of mine told me that recently when I mentioned a big change was coming up for one of my characters (and I'm rather partial to horror/suspense/doom/death/destruction themes).
- It was awkward and embarrassing to deal with the "fantasia incoming" responses from folks in my FC. I didn't want to be blatantly obvious with the "faked death" thing since I was hoping people would have the more realistic IC responses than OOC "lol I see dead people" and even some measure of disappointment that I wasn't killing him off that I got.
- Those who actually RPed with me were really good about responding as their character would and I hope the scenarios were fun for everyone.
Love that tension!
RE: Killing your character ~ Thoughts? - Teadrinker - 07-06-2016
I can pretty much wrap up my thoughts with this.
It's your character, you can do what you want with it at the end of the day. But if someone unceremoniously kills their character and namechanges/fantasias then my character is probably going to unceremoniously get over them.
There's just something weird to me about putting zero effort into ending your character while expecting other players to pull out stops and have massive emotional impacts for theirs.
1. Have you killed your character before?
Not in FF but in other RP I have. It was just her time and it felt right.
2. How did your friends take it?
They didn't care.
3. Would you not want to RP with someone who may unceremoniously kill off their character? Why?
See above.
RE: Killing your character ~ Thoughts? - Arrelaine - 07-06-2016
1) I have, basically when she had reached the end of her story and was no longer enjoyable to play.
2) They were all fine with it.
3) Yes, I would still play/RP with a person described. While my story may be intertwined with theirs, it's still their game, their character, their money. If they're getting bored with a character of theirs, who am I to get upset when they've decided they're unhappy enough with the character to end them? RP is a game to me, a hobby. The player's feelings matter to me more than the RP or how it affects my characters. I can always RP with their new character. I'm of the belief that only I'm responsible for my own entertainment or my own happiness, and I hold that to other people.
So, if you're unhappy with another character's death because it was just out of the blue, then walk away. It's neither wrong for them to kill their character because they're no longer entertained, nor is it wrong for you to walk away because you're no longer entertained. The people who get upset, harass, cuss someone out over a fictional death are people I certainly don't want to hang out with.
RE: Killing your character ~ Thoughts? - Knight Kat - 07-06-2016
1. Have you killed your character before?
Nope, never.
However, this is in large part because my experience with RP started nearly three years ago shortly after ARR came out. Until a year ago, my only character was Kiht, and I had accomplished so much experience and involvement with her. I had no desire to kill her off, or shelf her.
Most of my time with my characters has been spent making them "guest stars" in the plots of others. It's something I very much enjoy, but does make it so my characters never really have a set conclusion to their stories.
I suppose they will see an end when I get tired of playing them. But I may or may not choose death for them. I see them fading into the background as NPCs a perfectly viable option. I understand if that's not an option for all characters though.
2. How -did- would your friends take it?
I've spoken to my friends about it, and most said they would be very sad if either of my characters died. However, I strongly believe it matters more to them that I continue to RP with them even if it meant rolling new characters.
My only fear would be ruining the RP of others with character death. I believe this can be avoided with proper warning, preparation and timing. Some might think that takes away the shock value and drama. But I usually find out about even sudden character deaths OOC hours or days before I have a chance for my characters to ICly react. My shock is usually gone by the time my characters get be shocked.
When I've seen others kill off their characters before, it usually ends one of two ways:
The player regrets it, and brings the character back to life somehow.
The player rolls a new character, or falls back on playing one of their others more.
In my experience, their friends usually react by becoming sad, but do get over it and move on. Sometimes I see them RP with their friends less as character connections may not be the same on their new character or alt. However, this can be changed if both parties wanted to continue to RP with each other.
3. Would you not want to RP with someone who may unceremoniously kill off their character? Why?
Unceremoniously?
That doesn't sound like what you are doing. It sounds like you informed your friends that the death of your character is very possible. It sounds like you have it set to be part of a story. That isn't unceremonious to me. That is the right way to do it IMHO.
But if we are talking unceremonious character death, I would still be fine with it as long as the player didn't make it a constant thing.
If the player is constantly killing a character, regretting it then bringing them back to life over and over again, I would get irritated. Also, if the player made new characters then disposed of them constantly like some kind of character factory, I might find that odd.
However, who I RP with depends mostly on the player and always has. If I know and trust the player, I will always continue to RP with them on any of their characters.
RE: Killing your character ~ Thoughts? - Warren Castille - 07-06-2016
(07-06-2016, 05:01 PM)Arrelaine Wrote: So, if you're unhappy with another character's death because it was just out of the blue, then walk away. It's neither wrong for them to kill their character because they're no longer entertained, nor is it wrong for you to walk away because you're no longer entertained. The people who get upset, harass, cuss someone out over a fictional death are people I certainly don't want to hang out with.
Emphasis on this. It's perfectly human to be upset when things happen that aren't favorable, but it's really, really dumb to take it out on someone else because of creative differences.
RE: Killing your character ~ Thoughts? - Varinh - 07-06-2016
(07-06-2016, 02:27 PM)Kilieit Wrote:(07-06-2016, 01:17 PM)Velour Wrote:(07-06-2016, 07:29 AM)LadyRochester Wrote: Their reasoning doesn't seem to go beyond:
"BECAUSE I DON'T WANT MY CHARACTER TO BE SADD!!1!" So, I have a few questions for the RPC regarding character death.
Hmm. It might be a matter of lack of context but I'd be minorly annoyed if my story telling took a back burner to how my friends wanted their characters to be happy/comfortable, but then again I'm a roleplayer that adores dipping into more mature roleplay and finding others of similar mind.
<snip>
However, I believe that if the person is uncomfortable OOCly it is their responsibility to voice this, preferably openly and clearly as difficult as it might be, because unless both parties understand each other one can only rely on assumptions, such as the assumption that saying "my character would be sad" is a low-key suggestion that the player isn't comfortable with it. At the end of the day, if someone decides to stop being friends with you because of your decision with your character, your creative property, it's probably for the best. I believe there's a lot of situations where killing a character can really cause a buttload of problems for the other roleplayer, but only saying "my character would be sad" is an insufficient argument at a face value.
There are no victims to be had when someone chooses not to communicate, in my opinion. We're not all mind-readers here, gotta cut us some slack!
RE: Killing your character ~ Thoughts? - Kilieit - 07-06-2016
(07-06-2016, 06:20 PM)Velour Wrote:(07-06-2016, 02:27 PM)Kilieit Wrote:(07-06-2016, 01:17 PM)Velour Wrote:(07-06-2016, 07:29 AM)LadyRochester Wrote: Their reasoning doesn't seem to go beyond:
"BECAUSE I DON'T WANT MY CHARACTER TO BE SADD!!1!" So, I have a few questions for the RPC regarding character death.
Hmm. It might be a matter of lack of context but I'd be minorly annoyed if my story telling took a back burner to how my friends wanted their characters to be happy/comfortable, but then again I'm a roleplayer that adores dipping into more mature roleplay and finding others of similar mind.
<snip>
However, I believe that if the person is uncomfortable OOCly it is their responsibility to voice this, preferably openly and clearly as difficult as it might be, because unless both parties understand each other one can only rely on assumptions, such as the assumption that saying "my character would be sad" is a low-key suggestion that the player isn't comfortable with it. At the end of the day, if someone decides to stop being friends with you because of your decision with your character, your creative property, it's probably for the best. I believe there's a lot of situations where killing a character can really cause a buttload of problems for the other roleplayer, but only saying "my character would be sad" is an insufficient argument at a face value.
There are no victims to be had when someone chooses not to communicate, in my opinion. We're not all mind-readers here, gotta cut us some slack!
Yeah, I agree completely. I understand why the reticence (it can be embarrassing to admit that you're upset by something that no one else seems to be), but it's not helpful, and I doubt anyone could blame [former] friends for not prising your real feelings out of you when you could have just chosen to voice them up-front. It's not anyone's job to go chasing after you.
I do also agree that it's genuinely for the best if people with strongly differing desires and attitudes towards RP recognise when their wants and needs are valid but irreconcilable and part ways amiably. Character death is one of those issues where it can get really difficult to make functional compromises, so being able to say "I've really enjoyed our time together but this isn't working out" without it turning into a blow-up is...
Well, preferable. But difficult.
RE: Killing your character ~ Thoughts? - Chlodomer - 07-06-2016
1. Have you killed your character before?
Yes, I have killed off several main characters of mine before.
2. How did your friends take it?
Some either get shocked or disappointed that they won't see said character again, which to me is normal especially if you stay in touch with the character for awhile. Generally the negativity dies down quickly, people move on like any mature human being should and those who are good roleplayers use the event to develop their own character plots. Most people though I RP with are usually reasonable enough in handling such cases decently.
3. Would you not want to RP with someone who may unceremoniously kill off their character? Why?
I would prefer an RPer that isn't afraid of killing off their character than someone who would break character to have them survive because OOCly it might cause "harm" to them or others. I don't see the reason to persecute someone over their decision to do what they want with their character, I believe doing so is incredibly self-centered and immature.
RE: Killing your character ~ Thoughts? - Morningstar1337 - 07-06-2016
1. No, though I haven't gotten a RP in and certainly not as far as to where it would be an option. Even then I would likely find a less...permanent way of putting her on a bus.
2. The answer is unavailable due to the above. I don't even have any RP friends to mourn her potential death
3. Dunno, I currently have as one of her flaws an intense desire to avenge her friends and allies, having them come back to life like that would make it more of a flaw. On the other hand, that trait is very similar to a certain ebon dragon, a certain Azure Dragoon and probably Raubahn's outrage at the Banquet, so whether or not I would continue RP afterwards would depend on how it would be handled, if it not being permanent was part of the "plan" (IE discussed with me before hand in PMs) and if I want to go on that angle at some point (especially if the assailant isn't actually a Villain like Livia and Zepherin were).
RE: Killing your character ~ Thoughts? - Misteyes - 07-07-2016
My RP background is Neverwinter Nights servers, which have a very different set of social norms than we see here (they resemble LARPs), due to the presence of DMs who have authority above other players.
1. Yes, a couple of times, but I'll focus on just one: My character was involved in a plot with very high stakes and lost. The DM overseeing the plot offered me a chance to save my character, which I refused.
2. Some of my long-time RP buddies quit the server. It was completely silent, the players didn't talk to me nor the DM involved about what happened; they just stopped playing in the days after my character's death was announced. This sort of thing is fairly common in NWNRP-culture, too, but no one really talks about it. We all accept permadeath as necessity, so there's sort-of an unspoken rule against complaining about a permadeath (especially one that wasn't your own character) - but at the same time, we all play for fun. If the death of a character makes continuing to play someone whose RP was heavily tied up in theirs un-fun, there's nothing else to do but quit.
3. I'd have more problems with someone who says that they'll never kill their character no matter what than with someone who says that they might kill their character unceremoniously. That said - I don't RP to just be an audience to other people's writing, and I doubt many people do. If you are planning on killing off your character, make sure that the people you commonly RP with are invested in the reasons why your character is dying, and respect the agency of other players at all steps along the way.
RE: Killing your character ~ Thoughts? - Verad - 07-07-2016
1. I've killed many of my characters in tabletop, so much so that I have a reputation in my group for suicidal apathy, and I very much enjoy the idea of running a meatgrinder storyline in the vein of the OSR movement; I have yet to find many people who would agree.
Online, I've killed a few characters. One was years ago in the wilds of AOL RP after a fight went bad, and he took his lumps and died. Life went on. Others have died as I deemed it appropriate to the plot.
There was a post I made much earlier in my time on RPC where I said I rolled each month for Verad to abruptly die of old age, and the percent chance gradually increased. I eventually abandoned that, for reasons described in 3. But it was certainly in the cards, and it still is if I sign him up for a roll event where death is a possible consequence of failure.
2. Reactions were mixed, ranging from "I respect that had the guts to pull the trigger on your own character" to "How could you waste your own story like that?"
3. I'm conflicted on this, because I think most people are generally bad at killing their characters for roleplaying purposes no matter how much pomp and ceremony they put into it. I include myself in this; I look back at several of these deaths and feel that they were done mostly for my own self-aggrandizement in whatever plot was being run at the time. Even in tabletop, when the deaths were the product of bad dice, I had put myself in positions where I'd be the hero of the table if I managed to succeed. My ego was writ large in the decision and I suspect that's the case for a pretty significant number of dramatic roleplaying deaths, hence abandoning the death-by-old-age plan I'd originally put in place.
Regarding the "unceremonious" part, I'm fine with that from my tabletop background, but I like to know at the start of the game if it's a possibility, and like to establish that it's a possibility if I'm the one running anything. Online, I think it's a contradiction; a sudden and unexpected death, however mundane the portrayal, becomes a big and shocking swerve because people either expect no deaths, or highly public, highly tragic ones. I'm not actually sure unceremonious death can happen at all online.
I want to add a fourth question, though: All else being equal, why would you choose to kill your character over retiring them alive? For the purposes of this, set aside when the death may have some narrative impact, as Sasha is planning. I mean a situation like Virella's, where the character's story is effectively done, and there is no further progression to be made. At that point, what's the value of death over living retirement?