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Let us speak of language - Printable Version

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RE: Let us speak of language - Blue - 03-30-2014

I know you said to not talk of lore here, but my opinion on the matter really is lore-weighed. As far as I know, the Adventurer, as one who possessed the Echo, has the ability to understand and speak all languages (it's how we can communicate with moogles). I guess it kind of works like in Harry Potter's books, where Harry doesn't even realize to be speaking with snakes: to him they all sound like the language he knows, and replies as such. I think the adventurer does the same. I figured it's why, when in quests we are given the option to reply in different ways to an NPC's question, the reply options are always in the same language/accent/dialect the NPC uses with you. I don't know if it makes sense...

I know not all RPers like to follow the story and lore, but as far as I go, I usually roll with it. I have an Ala Mighan character who supposedly speaks Ala Mighan, but can understand the language of the other players and reply at ease in their same language naturally thanks to his Echo.

RE: Let us speak of language - Ildur - 03-30-2014

While it's true that the Echo has that effect, there's nothing in the game itself suggesting there are multiple languages being used in the different Eorzean city states. There are no mentions about the Ala Mhigan, Gridanian, Ishgardian or any other language in any NPC dialogue or quest. If such a barrier existed (and language barriers are a pretty big deal), then you'd think it would be mentioned plainly somewhere. But nobody does. The simpler answers are the most probable: if no NPC mentions the difference in regional languages, the most likely answer is that they don't exist at all.

I wonder if anyone has asked in the official lore forums about this, and if they got any official answer. (<- is lazy)

RE: Let us speak of language - Blue - 03-30-2014

(03-30-2014, 04:54 AM)Ildur Wrote: While it's true that the Echo has that effect, there's nothing in the game itself suggesting there are multiple languages being used in the different Eorzean city states. There are no mentions about the Ala Mhigan, Gridanian, Ishgardian or any other language in any NPC dialogue or quest. If such a barrier existed (and language barriers are a pretty big deal), then you'd think it would be mentioned plainly somewhere. But nobody does. The simpler answers are the most probable: if no NPC mentions the difference in regional languages, the most likely answer is that they don't exist at all.

I wonder if anyone has asked in the official lore forums about this, and if they got any official answer. (<- is lazy)
Well, that may be true about normal NPCs, but there are several manifestations of different languages in the game. The moogles, as I mentioned before; or think of the Paragons, it's with Echo that we understand what they say. Same goes for the Primals (I think the "understood thanks to Echo" dialogues are all those balloons with the strange, spotty frame). The names used by the naming conventions must belong to those races' natural language (I think there is an item or fight that explains in its description of how its name comes from Miqo'te language). Padjals too have their own language, as explained in the description of the Thousand Maws of Toto-Rak. Languages are definitely there, imo.

RE: Let us speak of language - Ildur - 03-30-2014

The existance of languages isn't the problem. The problem is if any of them are used to speak in a day to day basis. Naming conventions are only that: naming conventions. If a family uses roman names does not mean that they indeed speak latin.

None of the examples you proposed, Primals, Paragons or beast tribes, are part of any city state. Except for the Padjal. And even with them we have no evidence that their language is used for anything more than naming. We can't really use them as evidence that there are multiple languages in use in the current times.

The evidence we have is that Paragons and beast tribes have their own unique languages. But that doesn't mean that Eorzean (human) cities do. In fact, I'd say that since the game states for a fact that the language barrier exists between beastmen and humans, but fails to state anything about human languages, this implies (but does not prove) that the city-states share a single common one. Anything else is just speculation.

RE: Let us speak of language - Koninbeor - 03-31-2014

^This.

The beast tribes wouldn't have any influence at all on the languages of civilized society. Very few people would ever have any reason to have any sort of communication with them at all and even then the communication would almost certainly be limited.

At the end of the day, people are going to go whatever direction they want. As mentioned earlier, the Echo completely negates the significance of language IC unless a player chooses for a given PC to not have the Echo. Eorzea has been largely designed in a way that breaks down barriers as opposed to creating them. That said, RP how you want to RP. Even if the devs stated on record one way or the other that something was this way or that, there would still be divergence in RP.

RE: Let us speak of language - Knight Kat - 03-31-2014

So, I recently finished the main story, and found something relevant to this thread.

Show Content

Not only does Minfilia reference the existence of various languages in Eorzea, but she calls it one of the "barriers" that divides the peoples. Its right there, in the main story. I'm surprised it hasn't been mentioned or acknowledged.

This doesn't mean we know what those languages are, or how they are spoken, but they -are- there.

RE: Let us speak of language - Erik Mynhier - 03-31-2014

(03-31-2014, 09:54 PM)Knight Kat Wrote: So, I recently finished the main story, and found something relevant to this thread.

Show Content

Not only does Minfilia reference the existence of various languages in Eorzea, but she calls it one of the "barriers" that divides the peoples. Its right there, in the main story. I'm surprised it hasn't been mentioned or acknowledged.

This doesn't mean we know what those languages are, or how they are spoken, but they -are- there.

Outstanding find. So lore seems to agree, multiple languages we as the main character never notice due to the echo. So assuming most do not RP as having an echo, then logically from this passage, non-echoed players speak multiple languages.

RE: Let us speak of language - Ildur - 03-31-2014

Good find. I forgot about it.

But still it doesn't mean there are multiple human languages in the current times.
It's a moral boosting speech and what it does is reference that languages exist in the world, but not that they are used in Eorzea. Minifilia is making statements in a general or philosophical sense ("Languages are a barrier that divide people"), and not as a specific truth about current Eorzean society ("Eorzea is divided, by language and etc"). As far as we know languages may be a barrier that's been 'trascended' by Eorzea already, as they are not mentioned anywhere else.

RE: Let us speak of language - Goodfellow - 03-31-2014

Egads!  I remember that scene and completely overlooked that bit.  Well, that opens things up a bit, but we still lack concrete details one way or the other to make any sort of conclusions about the linguistic landscape of Eorzea (as Ildur has pointed out above).

A grey area it is then!

RE: Let us speak of language - Knight Kat - 04-01-2014

(03-31-2014, 11:32 PM)Ildur Wrote: Good find. I forgot about it.

But still it doesn't mean there are multiple human languages in the current times.
It's a moral boosting speech and what it does is reference that languages exist in the world, but not that they are used in Eorzea. Minifilia is making statements in a general or philosophical sense ("Languages are a barrier that divide people"), and not as a specific truth about current Eorzean society ("Eorzea is divided, by language and etc"). As far as we know languages may be a barrier that's been 'trascended' by Eorzea already, as they are not mentioned anywhere else.

She says nothing about referencing the past. She says "there exists", not "there existed". She is speaking to the Eorzean alliance before a major military operation. Why would she be referencing the world? Actually, if she was referencing the world, her reference would have to include the Garlean Empire. Considering they are about to take on another people of the world in all-out war, I see it highly unlikely that she is referencing anyone but Eorzeans.

Her speech would be rather insulting, actually, if Eorzea didn't have the variety she is referencing, for she says that without the variety there would be "sterile orthodoxy".

If Eorzea has broken down the language barrier then why would Minfilia say that those barriers she referenced "can never truly be broken down?" Then she mentions transcending them as the alliance is doing "NOW" in coming together for the operation. At the end she says "In defense of our shared home." Which can't mean Hydaelyn because the world is also the home of the Garlean Empire. She has to mean Eorzea.

As for it being just a speech, and the only reference thus far, there are many things referenced in speeches, and only once. For example, the age of Gridania is referenced in a speech. How would they have to be referenced, and how many times before they are valid?

You choose to interpret it as just a speech that doesn't mean much? I choose to interpret it literally, and in reference to Eorzea. There is no reason why I shouldn't and no reason why my interpretation is any less valid.

Maybe we should just agree to disagree?

RE: Let us speak of language - TheWizard - 04-01-2014

Amazing, I'm going to have to side with Kat's offered info and Erik's agreement. Really with such a diverse population I don't see why there WOULDN'T be multiple languages and having the Echo gives of convenient way of being lazy and not programming in other heard languages. Oh the joys of mimicking a single-person game.

RE: Let us speak of language - Erik Mynhier - 04-01-2014

(04-01-2014, 12:50 AM)Knight Kat Wrote: She says nothing about referencing the past. She says "there exists", not "there existed". She is speaking to the Eorzean alliance before a major military operation. Why would she be referencing the world? Actually, if she was referencing the world, her reference would have to include the Garlean Empire. Considering they are about to take on another people of the world in all-out war, I see it highly unlikely that she is referencing anyone but Eorzeans.

Her speech would be rather insulting, actually, if Eorzea didn't have the variety she is referencing, for she says that without the variety there would be "sterile orthodoxy".

If Eorzea has broken down the language barrier then why would Minfilia say that those barriers she referenced "can never truly be broken down?" Then she mentions transcending them as the alliance is doing "NOW" in coming together for the operation. At the end she says "In defense of our shared home." Which can't mean Hydaelyn because the world is also the home of the Garlean Empire. She has to mean Eorzea.

As for it being just a speech, and the only reference thus far, there are many things referenced in speeches, and only once. For example, the age of Gridania is referenced in a speech. How would they have to be referenced, and how many times before they are valid?

You choose to interpret it as just a speech that doesn't mean much? I choose to interpret it literally, and in reference to Eorzea. There is no reason why I shouldn't and no reason why my interpretation is any less valid.

Maybe we should just agree to disagree?

Yay diversity! Without it we are boring.

RE: Let us speak of language - Zhavi - 04-01-2014

Oh, whoops, when I replied to the thread I totally. . . misread it. To be fair, I was tired, but eh. I made the assumption that there were multiple languages. I take it how I take Europe or the US today (or, generally, any major multi-ethnic place) -- we have major languages today that are spoken in multiple countries, but there are also other languages present. Don't count out languages so fast! While it is true that languages die out every day (and so, so sad), it is also true that it would be exceedingly difficult to kill off all but one language for diverse population groups. For srs. So while I would theoretically say that there wouldn't be a barrier due to one language being used as the trade language/popular language (think English or, say, Mandarin in some parts of the world), I also wouldn't say that it was the only one present in major cities.

Yes, yes, all the npcs speak a language you're familiar with, but I'd put that down to necessary mechanics. Chris Metzen put it really well one year at Blizzcon when someone asked about some lore tidbit, and he said 'no, of course there wouldn't be warlocks with their demon pets wandering around major cities -- the guards would be all over that.' So I see this in the same way. There's no real reason to bring it up, it would probably be more complicated than not to put it into a quest, they even implemented ways to get around language (echo) so that they never have to deal with it.

But that's just how I choose to see it. Smile

RE: Let us speak of language - Ildur - 04-01-2014

Naturally, you can go with whatever interpretation you want. I present my reasons to not think they exist as a thought exercise and not as an imposition of truth. Minifilia's speech is indicative that languages exist, but it is not conclusive. Language is the only barrier she mentions that cannot be empirically proved during the course of the game, pretty much just like historical facts, like the age of Gridania. Except with historical facts you can take them as truth because there are no proofs against those either. And while I can't say there are proofs that languages don't exist (except for the fact they don't seem to affect anything at all), I certainly can say that there are no proofs that they do:

There are barriers of race that can be seen all over Eorzea. Most of the races can be found in certain locations but not in others (Sea Wolves are more numerous in La Noscea, Elezen in Gridania, Highlanders in Ala Mhigo, Miqo'te are everywhere except Ishgard), and there are certain places that have racial problems. The barrier of nations can also be seen in the multiple city-states, with distinct interests that are often at odds with each other. There is also the barrier of creed, most notably between Ishgard and the other cities (and Gridania, if you see the Elementals as having some type of cult in the Padjal), and the fact that each city has a major patron deity that differs from the others. All of these are barriers we can empirically 'prove' that they existed by simply roaming the world, doing its questlines and reading the NPCs.
But then we reach the barrier of language, that is nowhere to be seen. But not only cannot it be seen, which could be handwaved with the Echo, it is never mentioned or referenced outside this one speech that, as I said, is motivational. It doesn't look for accuracy but to boost morale. Minifilia isn't giving the soldiers a history class: she's boosting their morale by showing them how many barriers there are and how little they matter for they are all joined, and one of them -language- might as well not exist.

With all that said, if I had to base any opinion on the "Authors' Intent" (something that I don't subscribe to, but there you go), and supposing the speech isn't the result of lazydom, then it's pretty clear that different languages exist in the world. They just failed at showing the players that they do. They failed at the "Show, don't tell" goal, for whatever reason, which makes things confusing. Specifically, confusing their lack of ability to show with the subject not existing at all.

So I guess we should go ask in the official lore forums and maybe one of the loremasters will tell us what's what.

RE: Let us speak of language - Zhavi - 04-01-2014

Haha, and I just went to the lore forums to post, but did a quick search first -- and there was your post!

(though, honestly, I'm going to be stubborn and stupid and one of those people and say that they did it badly if they built the world to only have one language. Call it my obsession with anthropology showing Wink )