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Avoiding contemporary liberalism in RP and embracing traditional conservatism - Printable Version

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RE: Avoiding contemporary liberalism in RP and embracing traditional conservatism - McBeefâ„¢ - 08-01-2015

All I know is my Brass Blade is racist as all hell, and he tells every Highlander he sees in Ul'dah to 'GET A JOB'

Or 'Who let you in here!? Get back to your camp'

He also thinks Moonkeepers are a bunch of sissyboys who can't keep their women in check, and that male and female Roes look like Goobues or Ogres.

I think RP racism is fun, and it has no implication on real life issues. The only caution, is I would make sure you use it in a way that promotes RP, and not hinders it. When R'elend is racist it tends to make an instant scene, that gets the other player involved.

I wouldn't ignore someone ICly or push them away ICly because of their race, as that would hamper RP more than foster it.

RE: Avoiding contemporary liberalism in RP and embracing traditional conservatism - Enla - 08-01-2015

(08-01-2015, 04:29 PM)Sin Wrote:
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Eorzea is not a melting pot. Sorry. It's just not.

It's a lame place.

You don't want to RP it like that? Be my guest.

But don't change the world, the fiction I roleplay in to fit your needs.

"I understand that Eorzea is a racist world, but I don't like roleplaying racism."
^That's okay.^

"I don't like roleplaying racism so I'm going to argue that Eorzea is a melting pot."
^Not okay^

Pretty much how I view it as well. Everyone is allowed to roleplay what they want with who they want, and if they don't wish to involve triggering themes then that's their right. However it doesn't change the fact that Eorzea is for all intents and purposes a shit hole with various races only barely co-existing because there are larger threats to their survival on the horizon. The very themes of several MSQ plot threads are that the races cannot, and will not play nice with each other, and in some cases like the Dragon Song war it turns into an unending conflict. That is the world we are roleplaying in.

People are free to ignore it, delve straight in and embrace it, somewhere inbetween, or none of the above. But it really doesn't make sense to call Eorzea a melting pot and to argue against the lore when even the most recent expansion deals HEAVILY with the themes of bigotry and racism. We're even treated to exactly how half-breeds are looked upon in Ishgard, and that isn't the first instance we've seen of how cross-racial couplings are viewed in a negative light either. If you don't like the lore, by all means! I hate parts of it too. But at least acknowledge it OOC.

Also, I think that even if it's triggering you NEED to remember that OOC =/= IC for most people. Just because someone is being racist towards your character does not mean that the player behind the character feels the same way. If it truly bothers you, calmly pull them aside OOC and explain your stance. I can almost guarantee that nine times out of ten, they'll either be accommodating or willing to meet you half way if you are willing to compromise as well.

RE: Avoiding contemporary liberalism in RP and embracing traditional conservatism - McBeefâ„¢ - 08-01-2015

Oh, and he calls every Lalafell a Popoto.

Edit: This gives me an idea for a thread!

RE: Avoiding contemporary liberalism in RP and embracing traditional conservatism - Cato - 08-01-2015

Racism in a fictional setting is pretty great. It sets up a lot of intriguing tension, themes and stories that wouldn't be present at all if not for the existence of prejudice. As stated in the post that inspired this discussion my character does, in fact, have Garlean blood in his veins.

Him having to hide that for fear of being injured or killed by extremists who blame every Garlean for recent atrocities is a reasonably large chunk of his character. Yet even when it does end up being revealed the vast majority of characters are perfectly fine with it.

Some aren't - and the conflict that arises from that is pretty cool I think! I've always been a fan of settings that aren't black or white, though, and I often root for characters who have flaws and may not be the most politically correct.

You can also root for the likes of Joffrey Baratheon, Cersei Lannister and Patrick Bateman - all characters responsible for atrocities - and not support those atrocities when they happen in the real world.

Other than that? By all means, shy away from the themes you don't particularly enjoy - just don't try to pretend as if the setting is considerably different to how it's actually shown to be in-game. Eorzea isn't a nice place to live. It's dangerous, the average life expectancy is low and crime/discrimination/corruption isn't uncommon.

RE: Avoiding contemporary liberalism in RP and embracing traditional conservatism - Flashhelix - 08-01-2015

I enjoy people who give their characters glaring flaws such as racist/classist/etc. beliefs. It can really add to RP in all respects. When my character and a friend's get into arguments and butt heads because he's an Ishgardian lowborn soldier and she's the heir to an Ul'Dahn merchant family who actively despise the poor, it's fun. People like to demonize conflict in RP for some reason, conflict is one of the pillars of roleplay.

(08-01-2015, 04:53 PM)Warren Castille Wrote: It's more in the "For my free time, today I will remove 20-80% of the RP community from my radar and enjoy doing it!" that I can't understand.

To be fair, you should probably avoid 20-80% of the RP community to begin with.

RE: Avoiding contemporary liberalism in RP and embracing traditional conservatism - Gone. - 08-01-2015

Eorzea is not a conservative place outside of racial issues, though.

Twelveswood, La Noscea and Thanalan? All ruled by competent women. One of the most beloved side quests involves a crossdressing detective and many others feature openly LGBT characters.

We're dealing with a sexually liberated game world with racial conflict holdovers. To consider Hydaelyn more liberal than our own planet understates the matter greatly.

If you want to try and justify IC racism that's fine, but please, at least try to do it from a logical perspective.

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RE: Avoiding contemporary liberalism in RP and embracing traditional conservatism - Flashhelix - 08-01-2015

(08-01-2015, 05:33 PM)hauntmedoitagain Wrote: If you want to try and justify IC racism that's fine, but please, at least try to do it from a logical perspective.

Alright.

Me, five seconds ago Wrote:The crux of the Lancer's Guild storyline is the racism against Duskwights in Gridania. Everything to do with Little Ala Mhigo involves Ul'Dah's discrimination against the Ala Mhigan refugees. Doubly so with the Domans, and that one's even brought up for a good chunk of the MSQ. If you don't wanna roleplay a racist or around people who play racists, that's fine. Still, it's not like the people who play characters don't have a good basis. Prejudice and racism is treated as a very real problem in Eorzea, so I don't really see the problem in somebody playing a character with those prejudices as flaws.

(08-01-2015, 04:29 PM)Sin Wrote:
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There, justified. Reading the thread is your friend.

RE: Avoiding contemporary liberalism in RP and embracing traditional conservatism - C'kayah Polaali - 08-01-2015

Honestly, I think it's the attempt to cast all of this into a modern, western "liberal vs conservative" thing that's the problem here.

Gridania isn't conservative because of Gridanian racism, nor because of the state-sponsored religion.

It's not liberal because it's led by a woman or because of the strong system of socialized care for Gridanians.

It simply is the way it is. You can call it one or the other to make it easy to understand the culture, but you're really missing out on the complexity of it if you simply use some sort of conservative-vs-liberal axis as your way of understanding them. And you're certainly setting yourself up for some interesting errors if you attempt to use that conservative-vs-liberal axis to predict the other ways that people from that society might respond.

RE: Avoiding contemporary liberalism in RP and embracing traditional conservatism - LiadansWhisper - 08-01-2015

(08-01-2015, 05:33 PM)hauntmedoitagain Wrote: Eorzea is not a conservative place outside of racial issues, though.

Twelveswood, La Noscea and Thanalan? All ruled by competent women. Limsa has a notable lesbian pirate bar. One of the most beloved side quests involves a crossdressing detective and many others feature openly LGBT characters.

We're dealing with a sexually liberated game world with racial conflict holdovers. To consider Hydaelyn more liberal than our own planet understates the matter greatly.

If you want to try and justify IC racism that's fine, but please, at least try to do it from a logical perspective.

Equating real world "conservatism" with conservatism in a culture is a bit silly.

Nanamo is ruler of Ul'dah because she's the only direct heir to the throne.  Not because she's competent, not because she's good what what she does, but because she has the right bloodline and there were no direct male heirs in her way.

Kan-E-Senna is the ruling face of Gridania because she is the Elder Seedseer.  She's Padjal.  If she were an otherwise competent Hearer of Hyur or Elezen birth, she'd never be able to rise to that position - period.  Because the only thing that matters is that she's Padjal.  And sure, yes, she ostensibly possesses the requisite parts of a woman, but since Padjal never go through puberty, they ostensibly never have sex/children/etc.  So the division between male and female (and the fact that a female Padjal would have 0 value in a marriage alliance) is likely non-existent.  Because, effectively, male and female Padjal are the same - they're outside of gender roles within their community.

Ul'dah is ruled by a female, yet within Ul'dah we see case after case of women being treated effectively like chattel when it comes to marriage alliances.  There's the storyline you follow as a Weaver.  There's also the storyline in the Hildebrand questline wherein the girl is being married off to someone she doesn't know or love, and has little inclination to marry.

We have evidence of sex slavery in Limsa Lominsa (hello Sastasha), and while it is ruled by a complete badass of a woman, that doesn't mean that somehow Limsan society is "enlightened." It just means Merlwyb (sp?) is badass enough to kill anyone who gives her shit about being a woman.

And don't get me started about Ishgard...hoo boy.

Edited to Add: And for clarification, what I mean by "attempting to equate real world "conservatism" with conservatism in a culture is...this has nothing to do with modern day politics or political talking points. Cultures are by nature conservative. They want to remain as they are. They cling to values that have sustained them when they encounter different cultures. This is how cultures work.

In the context of Eorzea, we have a lot of very traditional (from our world perspective) behavior mixed with very liberal (again, from our world behavior) mores and values. Xenophobia actually makes perfect sense when outsiders are constantly causing the forest to eat people. Xenophobia makes sense when you are living in a meritocracy that values gold and success over all else, and every newcomer is a potential threat. Xenophobia makes sense when you are part of an embattled religion that believes that any difference of opinion or thought is heresy, and will thus bring down your entire civilization. The only city that isn't really xenophobic or necessarily racist is Limsa Lominsa, but it's also a city founded by pirates of all races. So..yeah.

RE: Avoiding contemporary liberalism in RP and embracing traditional conservatism - A'kos Saiyal - 08-01-2015

Meh, being of mixed race and growing up near hated to the point of violence in real life, I can do without it in a game. For me, separating reality from fiction would be the opposite of what's being proposed here, accepting other races and those of mixed heritage.

Anyway, saying to stick to ones own race for mating purposes is not the same as not accepting other kinds of relationships with someone from another race.

RE: Avoiding contemporary liberalism in RP and embracing traditional conservatism - LiadansWhisper - 08-01-2015

(08-01-2015, 09:28 PM)A Wrote: Meh, being of mixed race and growing up near hated to the point of violence in real life, I can do without it in a game.  For me, separating reality from fiction would be the opposite of what's being proposed here, accepting other races and those of mixed heritage.

Anyway, saying to stick to ones own race for mating purposes is not the same as not accepting other kinds of relationships with someone from another race.

I'm confused..so you're saying that to separate reality from fiction, we should ignore the setting and everyone should be happy with everyone else, even though there are clear racial tensions written into the setting and lore? Huh

RE: Avoiding contemporary liberalism in RP and embracing traditional conservatism - Kismet - 08-01-2015

(08-01-2015, 06:09 PM)C'kayah Wrote: Honestly, I think it's the attempt to cast all of this into a modern, western "liberal vs conservative" thing that's the problem here.

Gridania isn't conservative because of Gridanian racism, nor because of the state-sponsored religion.

It's not liberal because it's led by a woman or because of the strong system of socialized care for Gridanians.

It simply is the way it is. You can call it one or the other to make it easy to understand the culture, but you're really missing out on the complexity of it if you simply use some sort of conservative-vs-liberal axis as your way of understanding them. And you're certainly setting yourself up for some interesting errors if you attempt to use that conservative-vs-liberal axis to predict the other ways that people from that society might respond.

(08-01-2015, 06:40 PM)LiadansWhisper Wrote:
(08-01-2015, 05:33 PM)hauntmedoitagain Wrote: Eorzea is not a conservative place outside of racial issues, though.

Twelveswood, La Noscea and Thanalan? All ruled by competent women. Limsa has a notable lesbian pirate bar. One of the most beloved side quests involves a crossdressing detective and many others feature openly LGBT characters.

We're dealing with a sexually liberated game world with racial conflict holdovers. To consider Hydaelyn more liberal than our own planet understates the matter greatly.

If you want to try and justify IC racism that's fine, but please, at least try to do it from a logical perspective.

Equating real world "conservatism" with conservatism in a culture is a bit silly.

[snip]

Edited to Add: And for clarification, what I mean by "attempting to equate real world "conservatism" with conservatism in a culture is...this has nothing to do with modern day politics or political talking points. Cultures are by nature conservative. They want to remain as they are. They cling to values that have sustained them when they encounter different cultures. This is how cultures work.

In the context of Eorzea, we have a lot of very traditional (from our world perspective) behavior mixed with very liberal (again, from our world behavior) mores and values. Xenophobia actually makes perfect sense when outsiders are constantly causing the forest to eat people. Xenophobia makes sense when you are living in a meritocracy that values gold and success over all else, and every newcomer is a potential threat. Xenophobia makes sense when you are part of an embattled religion that believes that any difference of opinion or thought is heresy, and will thus bring down your entire civilization. The only city that isn't really xenophobic or necessarily racist is Limsa Lominsa, but it's also a city founded by pirates of all races. So..yeah.

^This, this, THIS. These two posts pretty much say it all.

Y'know... Some of the commentary being made in this thread (and a couple of others) is going right back to that RP pet peeve of mine I can't stand -- the assumption that because something works a certain way in real life or makes sense for a certain group of people/location/set of circumstances in real life, that it MUST be how things work in this FICTIONAL setting! Yeah... no. We don't determine that. That's not how things work.

Do you have to like everything that goes on in Eorzean culture? Of course not!

Can you work around those things or ignore them? (And avoid RP with characters that support said ideals?) Absolutely!

But should you try to warp a fictional world and its lore-- that you didn't create --to your personal, pristine view of what does or doesn't make sense just because you don't like it or just because that's what you think seems most logical?

...If that's what you want to do on your own time within your own RP circle, have a blast. But don't present it like it's fact, or the most obvious train of thought anyone else should be having here. Because it's not.

RE: Avoiding contemporary liberalism in RP and embracing traditional conservatism - A'kos Saiyal - 08-02-2015

(08-01-2015, 09:30 PM)LiadansWhisper Wrote:
(08-01-2015, 09:28 PM)A Wrote: Meh, being of mixed race and growing up near hated to the point of violence in real life, I can do without it in a game.  For me, separating reality from fiction would be the opposite of what's being proposed here, accepting other races and those of mixed heritage.

Anyway, saying to stick to ones own race for mating purposes is not the same as not accepting other kinds of relationships with someone from another race.

I'm confused..so you're saying that to separate reality from fiction, we should ignore the setting and everyone should be happy with everyone else, even though there are clear racial tensions written into the setting and lore? Huh

I didn't read the entire thread, I forgot to refresh the page from when it was much shorter, so I was referring to this post:

(08-01-2015, 02:05 PM)Virella Douront Wrote:
(08-01-2015, 01:56 PM)tortles Wrote: The real world is full of racism, xenophobia, and all sorts of prejudice already. Many people have to deal with it on a day-to-day basis. I would really hate to be someone who has to deal with this on a regular basis, only to log on and have characters treat you poorly because of your character's citizenship or race.
Yes, it's just playing pretend, but I believe your roleplay experiences get to you somewhere in your subconscious.
It may just be me, but I find that these type of posts indicate what I was pointing out before; the good old IC is not OOC confusion.
I ask you, if you do not feel comfortable with these themes in the setting, why does one roleplay in FFXIV and not jump to another game, setting or anything, where these topics do not come up?
It just seems strange to me to stay willingly in a setting if you can not set apart IC and OOC if these topics get onto your nerves.

I'm one of those people Tortles mentions who has to deal with racism day to day. So what I mean is, if we're going with IC not being OOC, then for me, it's not rping racism. My ooc has all that, so if I'm going to keep ic separate and not bring the ooc drama in game, I have to keep the racism out of it. I could play an extremely racist character drawing on my experiences, or someone who is extremely militant against such things from the same. It would have been clearer if I had thought to quote the post or noticed there was more to read.

Now, I never said what anyone else should rp by any means. I just can't do it myself. I can't read threads like the favorite racial slurs because even knowing it's all in good fun and no one is really that hateful that it's just pretend, my life experiences remind me of what I've gone through, the name calling, the spitting, the physical violence.

The setting from my point of view has very little racial tension or actual racism in it. It's implied that it's there, but it isn't a strong part of most of the world. Gridania is xenophobic, Ul'dah is socioeconomic, Ishgard is class and religion based, but racial issues are pretty light, so I don't feel it's something I have to worry about rping. Honestly most of the tension seems to come from what city state you're aligned to, or in Ishguard's case your class and if you're considered a heretic or not.

If someone directs it at me, I'll probably ignore it, if they're insistent I'll send a tell saying, respectfully, that it's not a theme I'm comfortable with rping because of personal real life issues. Not really different from someone who doesn't like sexual scenes or certain grimdark things. I don't need that all to familiar negativity in my fun time, and I certainty don't need to take anyone to task for it in their fun time, and I aim to maintain that line between ooc and ic.

For those who enjoy that and want to rp that, I have no problems with that going on. Rock on and go for it, to say it's not there is wrong. But from my perspective it's honestly kind of laid back in that regard, and there's plenty more to deal with in terms of inter personal conflict such as nationality.

RE: Avoiding contemporary liberalism in RP and embracing traditional conservatism - abnormalnomad - 08-02-2015

I don't know. 

If you don't want to RP racist characters or themes, that's absolutely fine, and in fact, I have characters for the sole purpose of being 'happy-go-lucky/friend-of-everyone' that are a blast. Eorzea's racism never affects their lives or ever even comes up, and for all intents and purposes, it doesn't exist for them because of how they've lived their lives. Nobody is forcing you to RP stuff like this.

But, in the same vein, racism does exist in this game and this world and the lore we're steeped in. Whether it's the physical differences and beliefs between the Auri peoples, cultural differences between Wildwood and Duskwight Elezen, a general dislike for Hyurans after your character being stiffed on a deal, general Garlean hatred (or adoration), whatever reason anyone 'needs' to be racist, it's out there, and some people will also choose to RP it and have it be a part of their character. You can't close your eyes and say, "It doesn't exist, because I don't like it." That's not how things work.

It would honestly be better to bring up specific examples of all the races working together (such as at Carteneau/adventure groups/etc.), and making the IC claim that 'hey, we can all coexist, just look at x,y,z', than it would to take it OOC and say, 'as a player, this offends me and i want you to change you/your character/your stories/etc.'. That's not how it works, either.

If none of that works or suits your fancy? Politely excuse yourself from the RP. Nobody is going to chase you down and make you do anything you don't want to. You have free choice and agency for a reason, after all. You just need to use it.

It's really that simple, in my opinion.

RE: Avoiding contemporary liberalism in RP and embracing traditional conservatism - Enla - 08-02-2015

(08-02-2015, 12:03 AM)Akos Wrote: The setting from my point of view has very little racial tension or actual racism in it. It's implied that it's there, but it isn't a strong part of most of the world. Gridania is xenophobic, Ul'dah is socioeconomic, Ishgard is class and religion based, but racial issues are pretty light, so I don't feel it's something I have to worry about rping. Honestly most of the tension seems to come from what city state you're aligned to, or in Ishguard's case your class and if you're considered a heretic or not.

That's the thing though, it's very prevalent within the story and is addressed throughout. Particularly in regards to the beast races, which are very much sentient and portrayed as often being dicked over due to the prejudices of their more 'civilized' counterparts. The Sahagin and the Kobolds in particular spring to mind as examples of this fact within the base game, and the former is even expanded upon during the Leviathan portion of the main storyline. I really don't think their plights and the issues surrounding WHY they summon their primals is any less racial because of their beast like nature, or the fact that they aren't playable.

Then there's Ishgard and the fact that we learned that the dragons are very much also sentient and the tensions between them and the races of man; which are a highlight throughout the story and even are explored in several side quests in the Forelands. Don't forget about Hilda either (as her story wasn't just based upon class issues), or that one interracial couple who was on the run -because- they were interracial and not because they were gay as shown here. How the Auri are treated horribly both in Othard and now in Eorzea by certain groups of people, the Duskwights, and the tribal Moonkeepers are also examples of this - and each are given prevalence in many of the class quests.

I haven't had to deal with racial issues in my own life, so I can never understand how it might feel or how hard it must be to encounter it in a video game. But this world WAS written with this issue at the forefront in many instances. It isn't lightly glossed upon either. That said, nobody should have to RP what they aren't comfortable with. But the lore should also be acknowledged OOCly, if that makes sense?