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Warren Castille · **08-01-2015, 03:01 PM**

(08-01-2015, 12:10 PM)Seriphyn Wrote: My intention was not to create an etymological discussion of 'liberal' vs 'conservative', but if folks want to pick that apart that's fine. I removed the unintentional jab there.

The point is playing someone who is not open-minded to change and new experiences. Who see Au Ra and rather act like it's an absolutely normal thing to see a race foreign to Eorzea, react the same way a European would in meeting a Chinese man back in the 15th century.

I'm trying my damndest to comprehend what you're putting out, but in layman's terms it still feels like the OP is asking "Why aren't there more racists? The lore supports it."

Shoshopu · **08-01-2015, 03:09 PM**

I gotta say, I really don't like that people who say "I don't RP themes of racism because I'm not comfortable with it and feel for the people who have to deal with it IRL" or "I have to deal with this stuff on a daily basis, I don't want to RP it" are met with subtle accusations (or not so subtle, in other communities) of not being able to properly disassociate IC with OOC. :sÂ

Just as much as you have a right to RP that kind of stuff, people have just as much right to not, and wish to avoid it, for whatever reasons that are probably none of your business. It doesn't mean they can't set apart IC and OOC; I'm sure it's not that they feel like peoples' RP characters are marginalizingÂ them, but it could possiblyÂ remindÂ them of crap that happens to them and that's just not fun for them? And that's totally fair?

Like-- it's not that far of a stretch from "well if racist themes bother you, why don't you realize it's not OOC/go RP somewhere else" to... like... "well if sexual themes bother you..." or something. Obviously there's a point that if you're extremely sensitive perhaps you should find something healthier for you to do with your time, but I don't feel like racism/bigotry/prejudice is something so integral to the FFXIV experience, like, say, magic, or fighting, that if it really bothers you, you should be expected to go play ball somewhere else.

Virella · **08-01-2015, 03:25 PM**

@ Shoshopu

Racism in Eorzea has A B S O L U T E L YÂ N O T H I N G to do with R E A LÂ L I F E.

If you cannot divert that. Well, maybe roleplaying is not for you. If you are overly sensitive to these things, and cannot once more, divert roleplay from real life insults, perhaps it is time to move on to another setting, or maybe stop roleplay all together.

And it is a far stretch to compare sexual themes with racism, seeming Eorzea has a completely different stance on it all.

I get really sad people trying to convert roleplay to hugboxes due to confusing real life issues with those find in Eorzea. Racism is a terrible thing irl, however it is just a part of it here in the lore *shrug*. I really doubt SE put this part of the lore it in to hurt people on purpose, as you seem to suggest.

I should write a bible how a setting =/= real life & Character's mindset =/= player's mindset. And remind people constantly that getting insulted over IC things OOC does not make you a good roleplayer; in truth these type of people are the worst type you can run into due to well, playing themselves, applying their morals to a setting, and not their character's. That said, your character does not HAVE to be racist ect, but do not start going "But x might got offended OOC." if people touch themes completely valid in a setting, were you have an issue with due to irl reasoning.

Shoshopu · **08-01-2015, 03:33 PM**

(08-01-2015, 03:25 PM)Virella Douront Wrote: @ Shoshopu

Racism in Eorzea has A B S O L U T E L YÂ N O T H I N G to do with R E A LÂ L I F E.

If you cannot divert that. Well, maybe roleplaying is not for you. If you are overly sensitive to these things, and cannot once more, divert roleplay from real life insults, perhaps it is time to move on to another setting, or maybe stop roleplay all together.

And it is a far stretch to compare sexual themes with racism, seeming Eorzea has a completely different stance on it all.

I get really sad people trying to convert roleplay to hugboxes due to confusing real life issues with those find in Eorzea. Racism is a terrible thing irl, however it is just a part of it here in the lore *shrug*. I really doubt SE put this part of the lore it in to hurt people on purpose, as you seem to suggest.

I should write a bible how setting =/= real life & Character's mindset =/= player's mindset.

I feel like you didn't actually read my post and just assumed my intentions so I'll just grab the parts I really wanted to be seen:

Quote:I'm sure it's not that they feel like peoples' RP characters are marginalizing them, but it could possibly remind them of crap that happens to them and that's just not fun for them? And that's totally fair?

Quote:Obviously there's a point that if you're extremely sensitive perhaps you should find something healthier for you to do with your time, but I don't feel like racism/bigotry/prejudice is something so integral to the FFXIV experience, like, say, magic, or fighting, that if it really bothers you, you should be expected to go play ball somewhere else.

Here is where we disagree on how important racism is to the lore I guess. I was really trying to keep a level tone and didn't want this to escalate; I'm just saying that I really think in an activity that involves other, real people whose personal lives you don't know, one should exercise caution and empathy... I never said I thought people intentionally RP racism to hurt others, but whether you intended to or not doesn't change whether or not it actually bothered someone.

edit:

(08-01-2015, 03:25 PM)Virella Douront Wrote: And remind people constantly that getting insulted over IC things OOC does not make you a good roleplayer; in truth these type of people are the worst type you can run into due to well, playing themselves, applying their morals to a setting, and not their character's. That said, your character does not HAVE to be racist ect, but do not start going "But x might got offended OOC." if people touch themes completely valid in a setting, were you have an issue with due to irl reasoning.

I still really think you're misunderstanding the actual issue here or unaware of how much it can bother people. Here is where we differ in how much empathy we have for fellow players and what we consider fun, I guess?

**Unnamed Mercenary** · **08-01-2015, 03:38 PM**

[[takes out the mod things]]

If the thread cannot continue to be dicussed in a calm and collected manner, it will be locked.

I'd like to advise that if anyone is getting heated over the topic that the option to unsubscribe (if subscribed) and to not post in the thread are PERFECTLY GOOD options.

Or to take more direct opinions to PMs.

It's a big server out there. Not everyone has to agree about what they want/expect to see in their RP.

[[keeps the mod things out]]

Virella · **08-01-2015, 03:38 PM**

Once more, missing the point entirely that a good roleplayer would not get insulted themselves over things a character does. People with who can think twice would realise that this is just a character doing it, that it is common in Eorzea, and that is does not reflex the insults back onto them in real life and there is no reason to be offended.

Tis roleplay. Not real life.

Funnily enough my whole RP group exists out of people who are far from the norm, however you never ever hear anyone complaining about this topic. In fact, we embrace it, because hey, we are roleplaying, not real life playing.

If you cannot divert IC from OOC, well, you shouldn't be roleplaying.

Edit: After seeing Mod post, I'm going to step out of this conversation. I felt like I made my point clear.

13uddy · **08-01-2015, 03:53 PM**

(08-01-2015, 10:49 AM)Warren Castille Wrote: I don't think I'd ever feel comfortable playing a prejudiced person to that degree, even if the world lore "supported" it. It could make for interesting RP, sure, but that's not my definition of fun collaboration.Â

This isn't far off from how I feel about it. Â Sure, there are occasional exceptions, but even then there is still only so far I can go.Â

For example, playing an Imperial in "Star Wars Galaxies", I just couldn't bring myself to play the almost stereotypical "humans are better and every other species needs to learn their place" Imperial often seen in other Star Wars media. Â Or playing certain Elvish races, I may have given them a bit of an arrogant personality, but I couldn't quite pull off the "We are better than you lesser races" attitude that some of the lore or NPCs may have supported. Â

I don't mind if someone wants to play that sort of character (within reason), and I've seen people pull it off fairly well. Â It just doesn't feel very fun for me personally.

Flashhelix · **08-01-2015, 04:13 PM**

The crux of the Lancer's Guild storyline is the racism against Duskwights in Gridania. Everything to do with Little Ala Mhigo involves Ul'Dah's discrimination against the Ala Mhigan refugees. Doubly so with the Domans, and that one's even brought up for a good chunk of the MSQ. If you don't wanna roleplay a racist or around people who play racists, that's fine. Still, it's not like the people who play characters don't have a good basis. Prejudice and racism is treated as a very real problem in Eorzea, so I don't really see the problem in somebody playing a character with those prejudices as flaws.

If somebody is bothered by the way people present race relations in Eorzea, then they should stay away from the characters that bother them. It's not exclusion, it's common sense. That's not telling them pick up their ball and go somewhere else, it's asking them to not force others to play the kind of ball that they're most comfortable with. Other people can't make you accept roleplay that makes you uncomfortable, and you can't make anybody else change their roleplay to suit your tastes. It's common courtesy.

Warren Castille · **08-01-2015, 04:22 PM**

Prejudice is ugly. I'd go so far as to say that it's taxing on the person perpetrating it, to boot. I'm like, 99% sure that I'm not racist in real life, so going about roleplaying a racist is out of my element. Pressing prejudices isn't something I know how to do, or want to do, or think I could do with any justice. I'd be more at ease roleplaying an enigmatic superphysicist than a casual racist.

At the heart of it, there's plenty of room for racism in Eorzea. There's also room for pedophiles, serial rapists and cannibals, too. That's the far spectrum of "unpleasant person" of course, but I think we don't see them for the same reason.

Shoshopu · **08-01-2015, 04:27 PM**

(08-01-2015, 04:13 PM)Flashhelix Wrote: The crux of the Lancer's Guild storyline is the racism against Duskwights in Gridania. Everything to do with Little Ala Mhigo involves Ul'Dah's discrimination against the Ala Mhigan refugees. Doubly so with the Domans, and that one's even brought up for a good chunk of the MSQ. If you don't wanna roleplay a racist or around people who play racists, that's fine. Still, it's not like the people who play characters don't have a good basis. Prejudice and racism is treated as a very real problem in Eorzea, so I don't really see the problem in somebody playing a character with those prejudices as flaws.

If somebody is bothered by the way people present race relations in Eorzea, then they should stay away from the characters that bother them. It's not exclusion, it's common sense. That's not telling them pick up their ball and go somewhere else, it's asking them to not force others to play the kind of ball that they're most comfortable with. Other people can't make you accept roleplay that makes you uncomfortable, and you can't make anybody else change their roleplay to suit your tastes. It's common courtesy.

Honestly I have the same thoughts, in a nutshell.

In fact, I would love for people to treat my Awyrbyrt like an outsider in Gridania in spite of his patriotism, or for Shopu and Fyrilsunn to turn more heads for being such close friends with such different backgrounds. I just don't personally enjoy being the instigator for that kind of RP onto others because I like to err on the side of caution when interacting with others. And I believe that might be part of the reason this sort of RP doesn't happen more, which I find reasonable. If I ever did it would be after discussing it with the other person first to make sure they'd be okay with that. My list of things that should be off-limits for RP is actually extremely small, although I think a lot of things should be discussed OOC first so everyone's within their comfort levels and everyone has fun. Contacting everyone OOCly is a bit inconvenient logistically for public spaces though, which is unfortunate. A lot of things that make people uncomfortable don't bother me, so I try to be extra self-aware because I'd feel bad knowing I've made someone uncomfortable.

Honestly the only thing that really rankled me in this thread was the implication that people who are sensitive about certain subjects and don't want to be around them in RP aren't good roleplayers, and that they should go play another game (which was said in this thread, almost exactly in those words). We can agree to disagree about what kind of RP we like without throwing around that kind of talk.

Sin · **08-01-2015, 04:29 PM**

Show Content

KOJI FOXFrom FFXIV's Head of Localization (English):

A:Â Some of the lore makes it sounds like the conflict between the Hyur and Elezen got pretty heated while others make it sound like a long standing tension. What was the extent of those hostilities?

MCKF:Â I touched on this a little bit today in the live stream and there was a question about relationships between the races and crossbreeding. A lot of it doesnâ€™t happen because while we have all these races living together in Eorzea, thereâ€™s this tension between them. Thatâ€™s there because they have these histories of fighting for a long time and then not really making up, but agreeing to disagree and living together because itâ€™s better than living by ourselves and being more susceptible to Garlean attacks or whatever. We work together because we have a common enemy type of thing.

Most of the races donâ€™t really like each other and itâ€s gone on through multiple Eras. There are times when Eorzea has been more populated by one race over another and there will be conflict there. With the Hyur and Elezen, thatâ€™s very recent. In the sixth astral era, Elezen migrated in and in that era they were like â€œweâ€™re the first ones here!â€ even though they werenâ€™t, but they were the first at the beginning of the sixth astral era and they settled and of course the pesky Hyur who are everywhere come in and the Elezen are like â€œoh my god we left you that whole continent up there why are you here!â€ and the Lalafell come in and you have these cycles of clashing and moving part and that gets ingrained in their society and their racial cultures. Thereâ€™s always these power struggles, youâ€™ll have times when the Lalafell rise for whatever reason and theyâ€™ll side with one group and then turn on another group and thatâ€™s one of the reasons thereâ€™s not a lot of interracial relationships because even though theyâ€™re living in the same towns itâ€™s like well yeahâ€¦ but youâ€™re an Elezen.

F:Â I can just imagine some young Elezen bringing home a Hyur woman and the Grandma going â€œWhy couldnâ€™t you have found a nice Elezen girl!â€

MCKF:Â Thereâ€™s a lot of that going on. Like i mentioned in the stream, in the future weâ€™ll have some characters that are half one race and half another and weâ€™ll see how theyâ€™re treated in society and quests with that.

Â http://gamerescape.com/2014/10/22/fan-fe...-koji-fox/

Eorzea is not a melting pot. Sorry. It's just not.

It's a lame place.

You don't want to RP it like that? Be my guest.

But don't change the world, the fiction I roleplay in to fit your needs.

"I understand that Eorzea is a racist world, but I don't like roleplaying racism."
^That's okay.^

"I don't like roleplaying racism so I'm going to argue that Eorzea is a melting pot."
^Not okay^

Cailean Lockwood · **08-01-2015, 04:37 PM**

I'll say the same here as I say in all these cases: RP whatever you want. But don't expect people to accept your RP. People are free to choose who they want to RP with.

If you want to RP a racist basta-... I mean, a conservative traditionalist, then sure, do that. But know that people who disagree with your RP are free to ignore you and choose not to be part of it.

Blue · **08-01-2015, 04:50 PM**

I'm not sure how to take the "I'm not racist IRL so I don't feel okay to RP racism." comment... Is that an implication that those who RP a xenophobic character ARE xenophobic IRL? Because that that point it gets offensive.

Me, I see RP as an acting hobby. I love acting, I wish I could be an actor (actress, not so much, and I'm a female IRL, so that's a problem), and for such I always try to RP characters as different from my RL self, to give myself challenges. I RP characters of different gender than my own, different tastes, and different opinions. My main character is xenophobic, for one. Another is gay. Another is a moronic asshole. Another is a wealthy rich. All things I am not IRL.

If we get to the point of thinking that people who RP a certain character must be like that IRL too, then that is where the issues begin. I doubt actors who play the role of murderers are psychopaths in real life who wish they could kill someone, or am I wrong?

Warren Castille · **08-01-2015, 04:53 PM**

(08-01-2015, 04:50 PM)Blue Wrote: I'm not sure how to take the "I'm not racist IRL so I don't feel okay to RP racism." comment... Is that an implication that those who RP a xenophobic character ARE xenophobic IRL? Because that that point it gets offensive.

Me, I see RP as an acting hobby. I love acting, I wish I could be an actor (actress, not so much, and I'm a female IRL, so that's a problem), and for such I always try to RP characters as different from my RL self, to give myself challenges. I RP characters of different gender than my own, different tastes, and different opinions. My main character is xenophobic, for one. Another is gay. Another is a moronic asshole. Another is a wealthy rich. All things I am not IRL.

If we get to the point of thinking that people who RP a certain character must be like that IRL too, then that is where the issues begin. I doubt actors who play the role of murderers are psychopaths in real life who wish they could kill someone, or am I wrong?

I said I don't know how to do it. It's okay to quote the thing you're talking about if you want a discussion, you know.

Edit: It's more in the "For my free time, today I will remove 20-80% of the RP community from my radar and enjoy doing it!" that I can't understand.

Blue · **08-01-2015, 04:57 PM**

(08-01-2015, 04:53 PM)Warren Castille Wrote:
(08-01-2015, 04:50 PM)Blue Wrote: I'm not sure how to take the "I'm not racist IRL so I don't feel okay to RP racism." comment... Is that an implication that those who RP a xenophobic character ARE xenophobic IRL? Because that that point it gets offensive.

Me, I see RP as an acting hobby. I love acting, I wish I could be an actor (actress, not so much, and I'm a female IRL, so that's a problem), and for such I always try to RP characters as different from my RL self, to give myself challenges. I RP characters of different gender than my own, different tastes, and different opinions. My main character is xenophobic, for one. Another is gay. Another is a moronic asshole. Another is a wealthy rich. All things I am not IRL.

If we get to the point of thinking that people who RP a certain character must be like that IRL too, then that is where the issues begin. I doubt actors who play the role of murderers are psychopaths in real life who wish they could kill someone, or am I wrong?

I said I don't know how to do it. It's okay to quote the thing you're talking about if you want a discussion, you know.

Edit: It's more in the "For my free time, today I will remove 20-80% of the RP community from my radar and enjoy doing it!" that I can't understand.

Aye, sorry, I was just lazy to hit the "quote" button.

RPing a xenophobic or any other form of discriminative character does not imply cutting away people to RP with from the community, it's the other way around, actually. It gives more things to discuss, and more thrilling drama to fuel (strictly to an IC level). For example in my group we just recently got an Au Ra character, and my character is super annoyed at it. He has been trying to talk her into leaving the headquarters in which we stay, and then put himself against others who instead wanted her to stay. It's all acting, and all participants know it (we are all long-lasting friends), and I feel it will bring for some interesting future developments as my character will have to cope with the presence of someone he dislikes (and perhaps eventually accept her).

But again I'd like to see more of this from others as well. To give is nice and all, but I wish I could receive some IC discrimination too sometimes. I like to put my characters through all kinds of crap. It helps them grow, and it gives me that good feeling that I'm not into a barbie world where everyone is unrealistically super duper nice and open to everyone and all.

And remember, even if you're not racist, there's always a reason to distrust someone IC. Literally anyone in this world could stab you.

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Avoiding contemporary liberalism in RP and embracing traditional conservatism

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