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+--- Thread: Roleplaying the bad guy (/showthread.php?tid=11756)
RE: Roleplaying the bad guy - McBeefâ„¢ - 05-28-2015
(05-28-2015, 02:54 AM)Hyrist Wrote:Quote:I do not see any questions. What questions are being raised?
*Deep breath*
Story premise, method for evading persecution on long term (That's local, GC, AND Alliance level persecution due to being an organized grouping. Size garners attention.) Interaction limits, rules and concepts when dealing with, well, anyone not an antagonist, or even another antagonist of opposing goals especially as a group or with another group. Methods of acting or RPing in public settings, especially considering the above, again, on the personal, and group level.
This is on top of your typical lore, play-ability, continual activity, and logistical problems any other group are concerned with that could put you at odds with players on an IC or OOC level (or both) even if you were a protagonist group. This is compounded by the fact that many organized villainous elements are fairly well known and established (Syndicate, Brass Blades, Corpse Brigade, One of the 8 Garlean Cohorts in Eorzea, Redbellies, Coeurl Claws, Harriers, Lunatics, Rogue Pirates and the newly christened 2.55 group which I'll not spoil, nor will I touch on Beast Tribe entities, Void entities, Ascians, or even Undead. ) leaving little conceptual room for a larger organization that does not answer to or conflict with these criminal elements on top of law abiding or law enforcement entities.Â
That's a lot to hammer down before you even start making decisions of creative liberties as a group and establishing your own canon within it. I'll openly applaud the group that tackles that challenge fully knowing the difficulties involved, but there would be a quite a lengthy conversation to be had before any sort of collaboration could be done. There are so many potential clashing points in a pre-established villain base even in fully free form RPs in forums that adding in the often restrictive elements of MMO's level of canon and lore into it and factoring the many ways the interpretation of such deviates even among protagonists - is such a bramble patch of potential disasters and unwanted drama for all involved that I as a story-writer wouldn't even touch the project from a leadership standpoint.
I'd have to speculate that either the leadership there simply doesn't care for such things or they are some of the most cautiously meticulous people in the field of roleplaying. Either way they stand in the center of a conceptual minefield, and I don't envy their position.
If I were to boil all those concerns down to two questions - I'd ask how they avoid becoming a Scarlet Letter, or if they even care about it.
To be honest I have no idea what you're saying here.
RE: Roleplaying the bad guy - K'hatos - 05-28-2015
A lot of these posts seem to hinge on the premise that the "good" guys always win. As if that's a necessary element for a story to have. Every character is the protagonist of their own story.Â
Now obviously as enlightened people in the twenty-first century we accept that certain modes of thinking are deleterious to social cohesion. Slavery, murder, and destruction of property are wrong. Throughout much of history however, these concepts have been less than consistent. The fact that a character might ascribe to an unpleasant philosophy may label them a villain, but it doesn't doom them to failure.Â
Stories don't always end happily ever after. Sometimes the aggressive jerk who starts a fight winds up beating the peaceful person who didn't want any trouble to begin with. As story tellers, we shouldn't close ourselves off to possibilities by starting with the assumption that bad guys get theirs.
RE: Roleplaying the bad guy - Fox - 05-28-2015
I've played bad guys for years, though often they are played with smaller groups. In my opinion the best evil doers are ones that do not see themselves as evil. A really good example of a current villain like this is Wilson Fisk from DareDevil. A really good character with many layers.
RE: Roleplaying the bad guy - Enteris - 05-28-2015
(05-28-2015, 04:21 AM)K Wrote: A lot of these posts seem to hinge on the premise that the "good" guys always win. As if that's a necessary element for a story to have. Every character is the protagonist of their own story.ÂI'm glad someone else feels the same about these posts as I do. I've been hesitant to post simply because the general consensus seemed to be the non-hero character always loses. When this isn't true.
Now obviously as enlightened people in the twenty-first century we accept that certain modes of thinking are deleterious to social cohesion. Slavery, murder, and destruction of property are wrong. Throughout much of history however, these concepts have been less than consistent. The fact that a character might ascribe to an unpleasant philosophy may label them a villain, but it doesn't doom them to failure.Â
Stories don't always end happily ever after. Sometimes the aggressive jerk who starts a fight winds up beating the peaceful person who didn't want any trouble to begin with. As story tellers, we shouldn't close ourselves off to possibilities by starting with the assumption that bad guys get theirs.
Two examples come to mind of the non-heroes winning.
I'm sure there are many other examples out there that just aren't coming to mind right away, but the heroes don't always have to win.
Secondly, I honestly think that disregarding my non-hero's rights as a character is absolutely absurd. My being part of the "realism" crowd, I imagine what you're trying to say here is that if the non-hero character ends up in a situation where they would realistically have to meet some sort of consequence, then it behooves the player of said character to roleplay it as such. And I imagine, and hope, that the majority of RPers here who play less-than-white knight characters would agree to that. Hell, I hope and pray that the maority of hero players also accept said consequences when they come along...
Of course, the dead horse... blah blah blah communication blah blah blah. It's improtant, don't get me wrong, just its been said so much that it shouldn't need repeating.
Just... don't expect me to suddenly waive my character's rights as a character because of some convoluted mindset that only good guys win/exist. Sorry, not going to happen.
RE: Roleplaying the bad guy - ArmachiA - 05-28-2015
(05-28-2015, 08:06 AM)Enteris Wrote:
To be fair it's pretty clear in this storyline the bad guys are winning temporarily, which generally does happen in a GOOD story. They win for now, but eventually the status quo will be set right again by Raubahn getting his revenge, us seeing our friends again, and the WoL saving the day. I really like long storylines, and I don't believe villains should ALWAYS lose, but they do eventually lose in the end. I mean if you're playing a Garlean, you know eventually the Garlean Empire is going to lose, the devs are definitely going to do that at some point, so that's something a Garlean player will have to prepare for. Eventually, they will lose. Should villains always lose? Hell no. I mean, look at your Heavensward example, one of the reasons we're so excited about it is because it's happening right at the lowest point in the story. All the bad guys are winning! What will happen to our hero? That always makes for great drama to SEE the hero at their lowest point, and it's an amazing narrative point in RP.
It's hard to find people who want a really narrative experience (Sometimes the bad guys win and everything looks bleak) and don't just want to win against the bad guy as soon as they are introduced.
And the "Villian" FCs I know about are Tylwyth Narah and Regnum Garlemald (Who play Garleans). As far as I know, both FCs work very closely with storytellers of other FCs, using their characters as foils for the other Fcs "heros" but they still have completely 100% control of their character. Which is fair.
RE: Roleplaying the bad guy - Telluride - 05-28-2015
(05-27-2015, 06:33 PM)Mercurias Wrote:(05-27-2015, 04:37 PM)Nako Wrote: The biggest issue about a villain pc is the endgame.
Sure the heroes want a grand chase, the villain esxaping from their clutches. That works well a few times  but ultimately, no one enjoys having a villain they can't eventually beat.
If the villain is a pc as opposed to an npc, then you have the issue that most people come Into. People dont want their characters to die. Which would be the ideal end to the heroes story.
There are ultimately only three real fates for villains:
-Capture
-Conversion to the good guy side
-Death
Personally, I've killed off a loooooot of my villains.
In other words - five words, to be precise:
"Forget it, Jake. It's Chinatown."
RE: Roleplaying the bad guy - Emberhair - 05-28-2015
(05-28-2015, 09:20 AM)ArmachiA Wrote:(05-28-2015, 08:06 AM)Enteris Wrote:
To be fair it's pretty clear in this storyline the bad guys are winning temporarily, which generally does happen in a GOOD story. They win for now, but eventually the status quo will be set right again by Raubahn getting his revenge, us seeing our friends again, and the WoL saving the day. I really like long storylines, and I don't believe villains should ALWAYS lose, but they do eventually lose in the end. I mean if you're playing a Garlean, you know eventually the Garlean Empire is going to lose, the devs are definitely going to do that at some point, so that's something a Garlean player will have to prepare for. Eventually, they will lose. Should villains always lose? Hell no. I mean, look at your Heavensward example, one of the reasons we're so excited about it is because it's happening right at the lowest point in the story. All the bad guys are winning! What will happen to our hero? That always makes for great drama to SEE the hero at their lowest point, and it's an amazing narrative point in RP.
It's hard to find people who want a really narrative experience (Sometimes the bad guys win and everything looks bleak) and don't just want to win against the bad guy as soon as they are introduced.
And the "Villian" FCs I know about are Tylwyth Narah and Regnum Garlemald (Who play Garleans). As far as I know, both FCs work very closely with storytellers of other FCs, using their characters as foils for the other Fcs "heros" but they still have completely 100% control of their character. Which is fair.
.......such an FC exists?! I would like to be put in touch with them ROFL. Really though, they sound like they're doing a real service to the RP community. "Has your RP lost its spice? An obstacle to overcome for character development? Say no more! Come on down today and throw your cash at RENT-A-VILLAIN! Sale ends Tuesday."
RE: Roleplaying the bad guy - Kage - 05-28-2015
I may be wrong but TN-RP?
http://ffxiv-roleplayers.com/showthread.php?tid=7606
Edit: And as far as I know, the founding members are still quite not dead yet ;p
RE: Roleplaying the bad guy - Cato - 05-28-2015
The popularity and success of the likes of Game of Thrones and The Witcher is proof enough that there's a large market for gritty stories where morality is far from black and white, the characters aren't perfect and the 'good guys' don't necessarily win.
RE: Roleplaying the bad guy - Telluride - 05-28-2015
(05-28-2015, 09:20 AM)ArmachiA Wrote: (snip)
All the bad guys are winning! What will happen to our hero? That always makes for great drama to SEE the hero at their lowest point, and it's an amazing narrative point in RP.
There is something we are massively overdue in getting in this story:
The montage.
In particular, the montage that shows the hero finally getting tired of being beaten down, outwitted, outfought, demoralized pushed aside. It would be nice to have a little internal story recap, with the WoL remembering every... single... primal... and.... supposedly... unbeatable... boss being taken down, and then having an epiphany: "I'm taking crap from these people/monsters/primals WHY, again?"
It's overdue, way overdue, WAY overdue, BECAUSE - and this is why SE should be taken to task for it - they have made this frustration THE ACTUAL CONTINUING VILLAIN OF THE STORY: Not one entity or person or Ascian, but the idea that no matter how many times the WoL saves the world, the people who should be grateful refuse to stop their petty Bulls**t and treat the Scions with anything resembling real respect and support. Everything the WoL/Scions do is undermined by people who SHOULD be getting behind the program turning up their noses and acting in their own ignorant self-interests. Sure, some of them do occasionally help, but never until they're forced into doing so, and too too much of the story is basically everyone abusing the WoL and taking him/her for granted.
Again, this tendency is the real, actual, and unbroken "bad guy" of the entire story of FFXIV. Of course, it's the same story of a LOT of the history of Final Fantasy, and that's the exact point. Except, FFXIV, alone of all the released FF games, hasn't ended, so we don't have, and may never get, that moment where the protagonist can turn to the entire planet, and scream, " I #$^#$% TOLD YOU SO!"
We can argue that this is realistic - that the real world works like this for heroes. But in the real world, heroes eventually figure this out, and it becomes part of their story. This applies equally to other fictional stories. How many modern Superman stories, for example, involve him taking a moment to ask himself, "Has it NOT occurred to these people that I could kill each and every one of them without really breaking a sweat?" That he DOESN'T do it is part of the reason Superman still has validity as a character, but it is valid only because he HAS asked the question, thought about it, acknowledged it, and came to terms with it. Our WoL has yet to even be given this sort of real acknowledgment. No, our SuperWarrior simply obeys orders and suggestions like the most powerful sheep on the planet. In fact, the WoL is pretty much like Cloud at the beginning of FF7 - following orders and suggestions blindly, having no real inkling of his own truth or potential, and having to be dragged through his own painful truth.
But the beginning of FFXIV is over. We should be passing that now.
At risk of being a broken record (broken record... broken record... broken record), I'd truly love to see the WoL have a moment of pure determination, and actually put his/her foot down and remind somebody that his/her boot stomped every single punk who dared to step up, and remind that somebody that the boot is in very, very good shape still. I'm not even saying the WoL has to WIN, but it has come to the point where, for me at least, I not longer care much at all for this avatar I am supposed to wear.
EDIT: Hm. Looks like I might have strayed from the thread topic. Ah, well. Here: "Some of the best villains are not people, but situations, or the pecadilloes of writers." There.
RE: Roleplaying the bad guy - Hyrist - 05-28-2015
A Sea-Wolf Ul'dahn crime syndicate and a Garlean organization. Of the two, lore wise, I'd cringe more over trying to organize the latter. I have Garlean character so I had to look pretty closely at the Garlean Military Structure.
The Garlean Lore is pretty volatile with their politics having been in a state of flux from back in the 1.xx days with Gaius playing against Nael. To now where there's a new Emperor in the works doing a political purge. Pair that with developing information about them and any organized Garlean group is going to be prone to having to retcon some pretty major stuff anytime a lore-bomb occurs.
So if Ramusus is staying on top of his game, he's got a whole lot of respect from me for it.
But I've got a lot of bad experiences with organized 'evil' groups to justify my hesitations with them. But it sounds like they're doing quiet well. I'm impressed. I wonder if they do internal intrigue plots among their own numbers.
"Evil" Groupings are not the standard party fair. The story premise for them exists in their internal lore sphere. They're not "The bad guys" so much as they are the protagonists of their own story.
Outside of their own sphere, however, they're playing the antagonist role, and they act and serve as NPCs for another plot. That's the function of a villain.
They're still Original Characters - and are given all rights and privileges therein. But a 'Player Character' exists as a function of a story, same as Villains. In an open role-play, that quality is transient. Put simply - it depends on what you are doing for a story. People too often mistake "Player Character" as a static state listing any character ever made by a person who plays a game - the opposite of a Non-Player-Character, someone imaginary or represented by place markers. These are the improper uses of the terms, in my experience.
I regret that my giant post got lost, it explained all this in detail.
Think of each Original Characters you make as potential actors in a play, and the titles "Player Character", "Villian" "NPC" as the costumes and roles you assume in that play, or Job stones you equip. You can't equip two 'Job Stones' at once, and each one comes with a different perspective and roles to fill.
RE: Roleplaying the bad guy - Emberhair - 05-28-2015
I'd quickly like to thank everyone who has been posting here. I started this thread only a few days ago and the feedback has been incredible.
I thank you.
To expand the discussion further, another point I would like to discuss is..
Has anyone had success in using an existing duty (trial 4man, 8man dungeon etc.) effectively in their RP? To keep on topic, how do you think villains and story tellers could effectively utilise these?Â
The setting advantage is obvious. You could make great use of dungeons environments in your RP. But what about fight mechanics?
While from a lore point of you there is no chance of this happening, i'd like to use a funny example from T9. What if the antagonist had somehow utilised the old power of Nael Deus Darnus or partnered with them or summoned a demon bat lady? etc.
The antagonist, borrowing this power, could summon meteors to crash down on where players are standing, on purpose. Or perhaps they "Give their flesh to the Old One!" and purposefully get hit my lunar dynamo to give the boss HP xDÂ
Obviously this idea is ridiculous but can anyone else think of any funny ideas of fight mechanics that could be used in a RP setting?
RE: Roleplaying the bad guy - Hyrist - 05-28-2015
The time limit and existing mob structure tends to make it difficult for me to utilize it for anything further than casual events that mix character structure with gameplay mechanics.
So I've been drafting a method of using the maps, and screenshots to utilize the setting in a pseudo-tabletop rendition of each zone. Even found an online website to help me host organization of such things as well but it's all rough.
Not sure how one plays an antagonist in a dungeon where the only mechanical role a player can play in there is a protagonist. Maybe a 'traitor' scene at the end?
As dungeons areas being locked out for IC reasons... I'm just going to say that an inventive writer can weasel their way into making a story for pretty much every zone in this game. It's all in the presentation. Just remember to take the Simpsons approach. No matter what happens, everything returns to 'normal' at the end, aside from the lives of the story staff and player characters that it affects.
RE: Roleplaying the bad guy - Telluride - 05-28-2015
(05-28-2015, 11:46 AM)Hyrist Wrote: Not sure how one plays an antagonist in a dungeon where the only mechanical role a player can play in there is a protagonist. Maybe a 'traitor' scene at the end?
Amdapoor Keep HM?
Attack the party while fighting the Boogyman, and pretend that he made you do it?
RE: Roleplaying the bad guy - Gegenji - 05-28-2015
(05-28-2015, 11:21 AM)Emberhair Wrote: Has anyone had success in using an existing duty (trial 4man, 8man dungeon etc.) effectively in their RP? To keep on topic, how do you think villains and story tellers could effectively utilise these?
I've been in a few events where a duty was used pretty well. There was a whole arc about cultists kidnapping people to siphon their aether that involved a couple of these delves - gathering information and evidence, rescuing captives, destroying the aether-sucking machines, and so on. The party ran through it while the "DM" explained the what was happening over a LS.
It's mostly due to these things that my own event will try this angle. Mostly because not only does it help streamline things and a little bit of action for the participants to bite into, it also keeps things from being bogged down in what is effectively PvP when my villain and his cronies go up against the heroes.
Yes, there's the whole /random thing and other dice roll methods to do the combat, which allows for more freeform action... but you also get to avoid (on both sides) a dramatic or tense moment being ruined by a string of bad rolls (on either side). It removes a bit of the randomness and allows for all those involved to focus more on the action and the straight RP.
It helps that the goal is for my villain to be defeated in this bit, but you could also use such things to orchestrate small victories and such to have the "good guys" interfere with the bad guy's plans without just straight fighting him. Refluff a delve into Qarn as raiding a camp of mercenaries the big bad is using to assail a nearby village. Or Brayflox as traveling through a jungle to get a MacGuffin needed to overcome their defenses. So on and so forth.
It's all in how you want to work it, and the creativity of all those involved.
EDIT:
(05-28-2015, 11:46 AM)Hyrist Wrote: Not sure how one plays an antagonist in a dungeon where the only mechanical role a player can play in there is a protagonist. Maybe a 'traitor' scene at the end?
"Replace" the last boss with the villain or one of his cronies, or have the actual "scene" of the confrontation take place somewhere outside the dungeon afterward. They fight through a hidden passage lined with traps and dangers (the dungeon), to confront the villain in his lair (a FC room or someplace in the world that's aesthetically fitting).
In my event, the bosses of all the dungeons are effectively "not" the bosses that are actually there. Instead, they're the Commanders of the Big Bad. I'll introduce them as such before the boss pull, and then can RP the aftermath remotely through the LS. And the big bad is actually a character of mine, so I can always swap to him for more personal interaction outside the dungeon if needed.