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+--- Thread: Female to Male Ratio (/showthread.php?tid=10359)
RE: Female to Male Ratio - sforze - 03-02-2015
(03-02-2015, 04:49 PM)Natalie Mcbeef Wrote: How about no one has a responsibility to accurately portray anything, and if you don't like it you can go RP with someone else.
I don't give a damn about the normative heterocrapfart butt poop.
I just play the char I want to play.
I really don't like the tone in this thread that unless you are a thing, or have a doctorate in it, you can't RP that thing.
You're not referring to the tone, you're very poorly paraphrasing the points being made. Nobody has said "if you aren't a woman, don't RP as one", or, "If you don't have a PhD from a women's college in the studies of the alternative sexualities of tubers, don't RP as a demiromantic Jerusalem Artichoke". You're being extremely uncharitable to what's actually being said and it's not constructive to discussion.
Please try to actually engage with what we're saying and not just look for an attempt at wit.
RE: Female to Male Ratio - Caspar - 03-02-2015
(03-02-2015, 04:56 PM)Presidio Wrote: By slapdash I meant not thought out. If you make a character that's intentionally upsetting that's a different thing altogether. I fully support making characters that behave in crappy ways. I guess the kind of RPers I want to be involved with and the kind of RPers I don't can be summed up like this: is the regressive attitude coming from an OOC place or an IC place? If it's the former, I probably don't want to play with you.That's a pretty good attitude to have, in my opinion.
And that's okay; I don't expect the world to be shaped according to my wants and desires. Thus my original cavaet of "whether or not this is a problem is up to your personal priorities."
But I wonder how easy it is to determine whether it comes from IC or OOC. I mean, it isn't the style of some people to fall over themselves apologizing when their character is gross and mean. (I would.)
RE: Female to Male Ratio - Domri Blackblade - 03-02-2015
(03-02-2015, 04:56 PM)Presidio Wrote: By slapdash I meant not thought out. If you make a character that's intentionally upsetting that's a different thing altogether. I fully support making characters that behave in crappy ways. I guess the kind of RPers I want to be involved with and the kind of RPers I don't can be summed up like this: is the regressive attitude coming from an OOC place or an IC place? If it's the former, I probably don't want to play with you.
And that's okay; I don't expect the world to be shaped according to my wants and desires. Thus my original cavaet of "whether or not this is a problem is up to your personal priorities."
So, how do you distinguish who has thought it out and who has not?
RE: Female to Male Ratio - Verad - 03-02-2015
(03-02-2015, 04:56 PM)Presidio Wrote: By slapdash I meant not thought out. If you make a character that's intentionally upsetting that's a different thing altogether. I fully support making characters that behave in crappy ways. I guess the kind of RPers I want to be involved with and the kind of RPers I don't can be summed up like this: is the regressive attitude coming from an OOC place or an IC place? If it's the former, I probably don't want to play with you.
And that's okay; I don't expect the world to be shaped according to my wants and desires. Thus my original cavaet of "whether or not this is a problem is up to your personal priorities."
All well and good, but it's very easy to mask OOC regression with feigned OOC progressiveness. The internet has provided a convenient playbook in this regard. And that presumes you value OOC communication, and aren't one of the types to demand full immersion and speak to the other partner OOC as little as possible.
It's a concern that's based heavily on intentionality, and intention can be a difficult thing to prove.
RE: Female to Male Ratio - McBeefâ„¢ - 03-02-2015
(03-02-2015, 04:58 PM)sforze Wrote:(03-02-2015, 04:49 PM)Natalie Mcbeef Wrote: How about no one has a responsibility to accurately portray anything, and if you don't like it you can go RP with someone else.
I don't give a damn about the normative heterocrapfart butt poop.
I just play the char I want to play.
I really don't like the tone in this thread that unless you are a thing, or have a doctorate in it, you can't RP that thing.
You're not referring to the tone, you're very poorly paraphrasing the points being made. Nobody has said "if you aren't a woman, don't RP as one", or, "If you don't have a PhD from a women's college in the studies of the alternative sexualities of tubers, don't RP as a demiromantic Jerusalem Artichoke". You're being extremely uncharitable to what's actually being said and it's not constructive to discussion.
What are you saying then?
RE: Female to Male Ratio - sforze - 03-02-2015
(03-02-2015, 04:59 PM)Natalie Mcbeef Wrote:(03-02-2015, 04:58 PM)sforze Wrote:(03-02-2015, 04:49 PM)Natalie Mcbeef Wrote: How about no one has a responsibility to accurately portray anything, and if you don't like it you can go RP with someone else.
I don't give a damn about the normative heterocrapfart butt poop.
I just play the char I want to play.
I really don't like the tone in this thread that unless you are a thing, or have a doctorate in it, you can't RP that thing.
You're not referring to the tone, you're very poorly paraphrasing the points being made. Nobody has said "if you aren't a woman, don't RP as one", or, "If you don't have a PhD from a women's college in the studies of the alternative sexualities of tubers, don't RP as a demiromantic Jerusalem Artichoke". You're being extremely uncharitable to what's actually being said and it's not constructive to discussion.
What are you saying then?
tl;dr - That if you're trying to write a convincing character and not simply gun it straight for wish fulfillment, you have to think about more than just the sitcom version of the gender/race you're trying to portray.
RE: Female to Male Ratio - IvikBlack - 03-02-2015
(03-02-2015, 04:58 PM)Domri Blackblade Wrote:It's nearly impossible to tell from IC dialogue, sometimes possible to tell from emotes, and almost always possible to tell from an OOC discussion.(03-02-2015, 04:56 PM)Presidio Wrote: By slapdash I meant not thought out. If you make a character that's intentionally upsetting that's a different thing altogether. I fully support making characters that behave in crappy ways. I guess the kind of RPers I want to be involved with and the kind of RPers I don't can be summed up like this: is the regressive attitude coming from an OOC place or an IC place? If it's the former, I probably don't want to play with you.
And that's okay; I don't expect the world to be shaped according to my wants and desires. Thus my original cavaet of "whether or not this is a problem is up to your personal priorities."
So, how do you distinguish who has thought it out and who has not?
For example, if someone were to emote the following: "Tina tries not to hit Jacob, but is a woman and therefore irrational and punches him anyway" it would be pretty obviously sexist. I have seen stuff that is that bad on occasion. And sometimes when people talk about their characters OOC it becomes fairly obvious that they have ill intent...
RE: Female to Male Ratio - Caspar - 03-02-2015
(03-02-2015, 04:59 PM)Verad Wrote: All well and good, but it's very easy to mask OOC regression with feigned OOC progressiveness. The internet has provided a convenient playbook in this regard. And that presumes you value OOC communication, and aren't one of the types to demand full immersion and speak to the other partner OOC as little as possible.^_^' As someone who tends to judge morality based on intent, that problem is a constant sticking point for me. More oft than not I just avoid making a judgment, since I'm ill-fit to do so.
It's a concern that's based heavily on intentionality, and intention can be a difficult thing to prove.
I would prefer to not assume anything of the other player for the most part, but occasionally OOC banter can be telling. In such cases I think I've got a pretty good reason to suspect them of blending, but rarely do I act on it.
RE: Female to Male Ratio - Cato - 03-02-2015
I think it's fair to criticise someone for pulling off a sensitive issue poorly. Some stuff arguably doesn't belong in regular role-play to begin with and whilst it's 'just' role-play to many that isn't really an excuse for everything to be a free for all with zero consequences.
Heck, I have a pretty high threshold for a lot of things based on what I've experienced in my life. I'm not the sort of guy who gets 'triggered' by anything and everything but looking back on some of the things I've stumbled across during my role-playing career across numerous MMO's?
Some role-players genuinely unnerve me, including some of the role-players in this community. It's nothing new for some role-players to embrace controversial issues and exploit them as sexual wish fulfillment/gratification.
RE: Female to Male Ratio - Gone. - 03-02-2015
I'm not going to disagree with the rest of your post because I consider it valid in most ways, however:
(03-02-2015, 03:44 PM)Presidio Wrote: Men fundamentally lack the real world experience to know what it's like to be a woman in a culture of restrictive gender norms AND heteronormativity.
No. Just no. While some men are clearly oblivious to systematic sexism, they are entirely capable of understanding female perspective via education and human empathy. This is the same toxic thinking that TERFs use to shut out the trans community and frankly I'm appalled to see it here.
RE: Female to Male Ratio - IvikBlack - 03-02-2015
Here's another good example. The creator of Bayonetta had this to say about his favorite scene from the game:
Quote:\Well, if I had to pick one, I would say it is the scene where Joy first appears in the game, with Bayonetta and her impostor getting into a pose battle. That was my way of expressing the feminine notion that, to one woman, all other women are enemies. Even women walking by each other will check out what the other is wearing, and might smolder a bit with antagonism. Women are scary.Game creation isn't quite the same as roleplaying, but people with shitty attitudes towards women often out themselves similarly when talking about their RP.
RE: Female to Male Ratio - sforze - 03-02-2015
(03-02-2015, 05:04 PM)Caspar Wrote:(03-02-2015, 04:59 PM)Verad Wrote: All well and good, but it's very easy to mask OOC regression with feigned OOC progressiveness. The internet has provided a convenient playbook in this regard. And that presumes you value OOC communication, and aren't one of the types to demand full immersion and speak to the other partner OOC as little as possible.^_^' As someone who tends to judge morality based on intent, that problem is a constant sticking point for me. More oft than not I just avoid making a judgment, since I'm ill-fit to do so.
It's a concern that's based heavily on intentionality, and intention can be a difficult thing to prove.
I would prefer to not assume anything of the other player for the most part, but occasionally OOC banter can be telling. In such cases I think I've got a pretty good reason to suspect them of blending, but rarely do I act on it.
I think it really is a kind of 'go with your gut' thing that varies from player to player. There are certain behaviors that I pick up on in other players that sometimes just gives me a really bad feeling, or their IC shittiness is pretty transparent in some way that sets off the alarm bells. It's difficult to explain to other people, but I usually just move with what my instinct tells me and stay away from people who set it off. There really isn't a 'one size fits all' approach for it, you just kinda go with what feels right to you and what makes your own experience better. :>
(I wasn't referring to you explicitly earlier, btw, to be clear)
RE: Female to Male Ratio - Verad - 03-02-2015
(03-02-2015, 05:08 PM)Presidio Wrote: Here's another good example. The creator of Bayonetta had this to say about his favorite scene from the game:
Quote:\Well, if I had to pick one, I would say it is the scene where Joy first appears in the game, with Bayonetta and her impostor getting into a pose battle. That was my way of expressing the feminine notion that, to one woman, all other women are enemies. Even women walking by each other will check out what the other is wearing, and might smolder a bit with antagonism. Women are scary.Game creation isn't quite the same as roleplaying, but people with shitty attitudes towards women often out themselves similarly when talking about their RP.
Patriarchal culture does tend to reward women who distinguish themselves by attacking others. Crab-in-a-barrel is a known problem in sexist societies. Is the problem that the quote makes it appear to be an essentialist statement?
RE: Female to Male Ratio - IvikBlack - 03-02-2015
(03-02-2015, 05:07 PM)hauntmedoitagain Wrote:I agree with the bolded statement and do not see it as conflicting what you quoted that I said.(03-02-2015, 03:44 PM)Presidio Wrote: Men fundamentally lack the real world experience to know what it's like to be a woman in a culture of restrictive gender norms AND heteronormativity.
No. Just no. While some men are clearly oblivious to systematic sexism, they are entirely capable of understanding female perspective via education and human empathy. This is the same toxic thinking that TERFs use to shut out the trans community and frankly I'm appalled to see it here.
RE: Female to Male Ratio - Domri Blackblade - 03-02-2015
(03-02-2015, 05:03 PM)Presidio Wrote:(03-02-2015, 04:58 PM)Domri Blackblade Wrote:It's nearly impossible to tell from IC dialogue, sometimes possible to tell from emotes, and almost always possible to tell from an OOC discussion.(03-02-2015, 04:56 PM)Presidio Wrote: By slapdash I meant not thought out. If you make a character that's intentionally upsetting that's a different thing altogether. I fully support making characters that behave in crappy ways. I guess the kind of RPers I want to be involved with and the kind of RPers I don't can be summed up like this: is the regressive attitude coming from an OOC place or an IC place? If it's the former, I probably don't want to play with you.
And that's okay; I don't expect the world to be shaped according to my wants and desires. Thus my original cavaet of "whether or not this is a problem is up to your personal priorities."
So, how do you distinguish who has thought it out and who has not?
For example, if someone were to emote the following: "Tina tries not to hit Jacob, but is a woman and therefore irrational and punches him anyway" it would be pretty obviously sexist.
How often does something that blatant go on during your IC interactions?
In my time RPing on MMOs, I've found both sexes equally ridiculous at portraying women and men all together because I don't think it's purely a wish fulfillment thing, personally. I think it mostly comes from a range of things including RPing what they think will be popular and appealing in a romantic sense due to how heavily a lot of people weigh romantic interaction, all the way down to they watched their favorite cartoon/tv show/game/book character interact in a way that resonated with them and they emulate it in a sort of personally touched way.
Does that make sense?
Being a woman or man doesn't usually make any difference in levels of how believable RP is from being a female or male character respectively. At least to me. I think wish fulfillment might be a thing, but certainly not the only thing or even the biggest one.