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+--- Thread: Gender roles (/showthread.php?tid=7486)
RE: Gender roles - Aerghwab - 07-24-2014
(07-24-2014, 05:03 PM)Warren Castille Wrote:QFT. Would read again.(07-24-2014, 04:52 PM)Natalie Mcbeef Wrote: Well, there are two ways of looking at it.
The fact remains that Lalafells and Roe's are shown to be roughly equal physically speaking. Otherwise no one would ever make a lalafell a brass blade, and papashan wouldn't be the hero of the sultansworn. So clearly a person can be roughly on par with someone 4 to 5 times their height and bodymass.
So either A: Roe's have the worst muscle density ever, and lalafells have the best.
Or B: Physical musculature is only a part of strength, and everyone, even fighters use aether to reinforce their actions.
I think option B is more plausible. Not everyone may be aware they're doing it, but they probably are.
The only flaw in this plan is that Garleans can't channel aether at all, so theoretically they'd be weaker in combat than most eorzeans. Maybe that's why the pureblooded garleans you see are all buff dudes. GOTTA COMPENSATE.
There's a third option. Maybe Papashan's just developed enough technique to overcompensate for his size? Relying on agility and being entire magnitudes smaller than your foe is a valid tactic, as is letting them think you're going to go down easily. If it was so simple to just be aetherially reinforced, there'd never be any reason for people to have sculpted bodies or actually try; Magic is just making us better. Having everyone on the planet be functionally equal because reasons feels like a cop-out to me. Having those who are able to hang with the bigger/smaller/faster/stronger/magical folk through experience and effort is what makes them heroes (or villains!) in the first place. Handwaving it away with magic makes for poor storytelling.
"I overcame Ultima weapon thanks to crystal-steroids! Thanks, Mothercrystal!"
RE: Gender roles - Zyrusticae - 07-24-2014
(07-24-2014, 05:54 PM)Aerghwab Wrote: QFT. Would read again.*cough*Didn't read the thread*coughcough*
RE: Gender roles - Aerghwab - 07-24-2014
(07-24-2014, 05:56 PM)Zyrusticae Wrote:No, I read it. I think there's some merit in the notion of aether being able to be used like ki for all intents and purposes, and I think there is some precedent for it in the Monks' use of chi and that being an internal aether reserve. Â I just.. really think there is such a thing as overthinking when it comes to game mechanics vs. lore, especially when it comes to things like the physical strength of a Lalafell vs. that of a Highlander.(07-24-2014, 05:54 PM)Aerghwab Wrote: QFT. Would read again.*cough*Didn't read the thread*coughcough*
Honestly, I'd challenge anyone to find a video game RPG that meaningfully restricts a character's physical ability based on size or gender. I can promise it'll be an extremely short list. Even in Lord of the Rings Online, a fairly low-magic world compared to most game settings, you can be an extremely effective Hobbit Guardian tank. It's simply because they want players to feel that they're performing their role to good effect regardless of the race they chose. And there's nothing wrong with that. There's no need to try to marry every single game mechanic to some aspect of the lore. Sometimes it simply comes down to creating a "fair" playing field, and more often than not, visual effects are just that. That's just my opinion, though.
RE: Gender roles - Zyrusticae - 07-24-2014
See, in my own not-so-humble opinion, going the 'small = agile' route is as much if not more of a cop-out (especially as, as Natalie mentioned, size does not actually = speed) and still doesn't explain the particular extreme case of Lalafel warriors, where such an explanation is completely irrelevant. Given that these things exist and are quite relevant in the universe, it follows that there must be something resembling a plausible in-universe explanation for it all.
Furthermore, trying too hard to separate game mechanics from the game universe results in mechanical dissonance with the game world, and we really, really don't want that. There's good reason why aether has inextricably been linked to the game's death mechanics (i.e. warriors of light don't return to the aetheric realm when they die thanks to Hydaelyn's blessing, instead returning to their home anchor point) rather than simply being handwaved as a game mechanic.
Mind you, there are definitely some things I just accept as part of the game mechanics, like most of a player character's ability being tied directly to gear rather than internal ability, but that can be explained away as an abstraction for the sake of progression mechanics, since your character would logically be getting stronger after facing ever more implacable foes. Gear serves as a useful stand-in for this since you can switch out pieces to change your stat makeup for different scenarios, something a more permanent progression option would not allow.
But Lalafel warriors still exist. And you have to be able to explain that in some way other than "oh, you know, they're just harder to hit", which of course doesn't explain anything since they'd still be tiny little people hitting as hard with an axe as a freakin' Roegadyn.
RE: Gender roles - Warren Castille - 07-24-2014
(07-24-2014, 05:15 PM)Natalie Mcbeef Wrote: So no lalafells aren't born as strong as Roes, but they can work hard and eventually be as strong as one. Think of ather powers like muscles that can be built upon once your body already has all the muscles it's going to get.
Good, was hoping someone would bring this up.
So Lala A starts with a strength score of 10. Roe B starts with a strength scored of 18. Lala spends all his time training his aether and eventually becomes STR18 just like the Roe.
...what happens when the Roe trains?
RE: Gender roles - Melkire - 07-24-2014
(07-24-2014, 07:20 PM)Warren Castille Wrote: ...what happens when the Roe trains?
Sudden price hikes for somnus.
RE: Gender roles - Warren Castille - 07-24-2014
(07-24-2014, 06:54 PM)Zyrusticae Wrote: Furthermore, trying too hard to separate game mechanics from the game universe results in mechanical dissonance with the game world, and we really, really don't want that. There's good reason why aether has inextricably been linked to the game's death mechanics (i.e. warriors of light don't return to the aetheric realm when they die thanks to Hydaelyn's blessing, instead returning to their home anchor point) rather than simply being handwaved as a game mechanic.
Mind you, there are definitely some things I just accept as part of the game mechanics, like most of a player character's ability being tied directly to gear rather than internal ability, but that can be explained away as an abstraction for the sake of progression mechanics, since your character would logically be getting stronger after facing ever more implacable foes. Gear serves as a useful stand-in for this since you can switch out pieces to change your stat makeup for different scenarios, something a more permanent progression option would not allow.
But Lalafel warriors still exist. And you have to be able to explain that in some way other than "oh, you know, they're just harder to hit", which of course doesn't explain anything since they'd still be tiny little people hitting as hard with an axe as a freakin' Roegadyn.
I have an issue with this. What you're talking about is explained in the main scenario, yes, but for the intents of roleplaying we're not supposed to BE the people (person, really, unless Menphilia's got an army of favorites she sent to stomp out Leviathan or something) who are chosen by the Crystal.
There has to be a story and gameplay segregation. Has to be. For me, anyway, the fun all falls apart if you presume everything is a constant everywhere forever. I can't imagine tanking from that perspective: Ifrit breathes flames that melt flesh and you suffer in agony, moments from death, until a fairy throws magic at you to repair your damaged skin, right before Ifrit breathes fire on your face again.
RE: Gender roles - McBeefâ„¢ - 07-24-2014
(07-24-2014, 07:20 PM)Warren Castille Wrote:(07-24-2014, 05:15 PM)Natalie Mcbeef Wrote: So no lalafells aren't born as strong as Roes, but they can work hard and eventually be as strong as one. Think of ather powers like muscles that can be built upon once your body already has all the muscles it's going to get.
Good, was hoping someone would bring this up.
So Lala A starts with a strength score of 10. Roe B starts with a strength scored of 18. Lala spends all his time training his aether and eventually becomes STR18 just like the Roe. So while Roes and highlanders are well known for their martial prowess, because with a little training they can be deadly warriors, it allows for other races to close the gap, until they can fight on somewhat of even terms.
...what happens when the Roe trains?
The same thing, but if they both increase in a linear fashion, the Roe will always be stronger, but eventually it's a miniscule difference. If the Roe is at 108 and the lala is at 100, that ~10% can be overcome with skill, courage, finesse etc.
Also I think the lord of the rings example is good, because it shows a similar way. The whole point of LOTRO is that ultimately your physical strength doesn't matter as much as your courage and strength of self. For example instead of HP you have morale. You don't lose when your character gets too hurt, you lose when your character loses heart. The game isn't saying a Hobbit is as strong as a Human, but that they can be just as strong of heart, which is the true measure of strength in Lotr.
FFXIV is the same way, lots of RPGs provide no mechanic for while different races of wildy different size can be on the same par physically. FFXIV seems to to have a mechanic for explaining it. It even possibly might account for Eorzea's egalitarean society, and why it's different from the seemingly more male dominated garlean society.
RE: Gender roles - Zyrusticae - 07-24-2014
Well, of course there's story and gameplay segregation. We're not all the exact same (mute) person wearing different skins and faces, after all. You can pretty much assume that Minfilia would have an entire stable of Warriors of Light at her command, and obviously, since you always have plenty of help in dungeons and fighting primals, you are not ever presumed to be the only one outside of cutscenes.
But I can actually explain the tanking scenario as well: it isn't actually burning agony for you. Your aether naturally acts as a kind of protective barrier that prevents his attacks from being lethally damaging (or even permanently burning you, for that matter). You're not just taking his stuff in your face all the time. That's pretty much what hit points represent (aside from the abstractions of dodging attacks that aren't represented by actual dodges in the game).
Conveniently, this also acts as an explanation for why a level 50 character is utterly unphased by the attacks of level 15 bandits, even when they're literally stabbing you in the face with steel weapons, and also why guns have not completely overtaken swords and axes as weaponry even though they're clearly already past the point of developing automatic firearms. Hell, there's a cutscene for the Sahagin where the clutchfather intimidates a bunch of weaker Sahagin with his aether alone, suggesting very clearly that aether does indeed work much in the way, say, ki does in DBZ.
So, you know, there it is. That's my explanation for a whole lot of things in this game. Aether is everywhere, it's used for basically everything (including crafting and gathering), and it's really the simplest answer to a bunch of problems that would otherwise have no reasonable answer. You may think it feels along the same lines as 'a wizard did it', but I find it to be internally consistent, which is all you really need (and can really ask for).
Aether is the energy field that suffuses all living things. It is FFXIV's equivalent of ki, the Force, chakra, reiatsu, whatever-the-hell-you-wanna-call it. It's there. We use it. Squeenix loves using it. You're just gonna have to come to terms with that, or you're gonna have a bad time.
RE: Gender roles - McBeefâ„¢ - 07-24-2014
Just like goku can get punched through 50 rocks and still get to his feet, tanks can get punched by Ifrit over and over again. Casting cure on someone is more like giving them a senzu bean than magical surgery.
The opening cinematic to a realm reborn shows this pretty well actually. The warrior is shown as basically being on his last legs, but there doesn't seem to be anything physically wrong with him. However the white mage cures him and he's ready to go again. Nothing is actually healed, but whatever internal store of something that protected and sustained him is back.
RE: Gender roles - Warren Castille - 07-24-2014
(07-24-2014, 07:42 PM)Zyrusticae Wrote: You're just gonna have to come to terms with that, or you're gonna have a bad time.
I appreciate you telling me that my interpretation of the lore is incorrect and yours is factually sound, but I assure you you are wrong with this sentence. Thanks for the lesson, though.
RE: Gender roles - McBeefâ„¢ - 07-24-2014
If we can't all get along I'll have to go back to posting gay lizard stories.
I have a lot of ideas.
RE: Gender roles - Berrod Armstrong - 07-24-2014
Just a quick, possibly unrelated note:
Pureblood Garleans are unable to channel aether. Conscripted members of the Garlean Empire -- who are made up of individuals from all the conquered territories, are able to channel aether just fine. Cohort Signifiers, etc.
RE: Gender roles - Aerghwab - 07-24-2014
(07-24-2014, 07:50 PM)Natalie Mcbeef Wrote: If we can't all get along I'll have to go back to posting gay lizard stories.Can we write a collaborative lizard/dwarf story? We'll call it Brokeback Under the Mountain.
I have a lot of ideas.
RE: Gender roles - Zyrusticae - 07-24-2014
(07-24-2014, 07:49 PM)Warren Castille Wrote:Well, I don't really know how to respond to that. You're... welcome, I guess?(07-24-2014, 07:42 PM)Zyrusticae Wrote: You're just gonna have to come to terms with that, or you're gonna have a bad time.
I appreciate you telling me that my interpretation of the lore is incorrect and yours is factually sound, but I assure you you are wrong with this sentence. Thanks for the lesson, though.
(07-24-2014, 07:56 PM)Berrod Armstrong Wrote: Just a quick, possibly unrelated note:I really hope they expand on this. The whole thing about Garleans and their lack of aether manipulation and the corresponding lack of aether on their home continent is a really big question mark on this whole thing. For example, if a mage steps foot on Garland, what does it feel like for them? Are they still capable of casting spells, or does the lack of aether perform the equivalent of suffocating their magical prowess? And why is their continent low on aether, anyway? Was there some great magical disaster in the past that created a vacuum in that area, is it naturally-occurring, or was it something else entirely?
Pureblood Garleans are unable to channel aether. Conscripted members of the Garlean Empire -- who are made up of individuals from all the conquered territories, are able to channel aether just fine. Cohort Signifiers, etc.
Big questions, and still no answers yet. Don't let me down, Squeenix!