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K'nahli · **06-25-2014, 11:16 AM**

(06-25-2014, 11:07 AM)Warren Castille Wrote: Warren would like to believe he treats everyone equally, but that's just not true. He's a protective person by nature and this leads him to lump people into the categories of whether or not he feels can be protect them. THAT breaks down because he expects men to be able to fend for themselves and function as providers, whereas he excuses women from it. It's a bit chauvinist but comes from good intentions; He doesn't want women to have to bear any sort of pain or hardship so he expects men to take up the slack.

He's recently been working on acknowledging the fact that many, many women have no need for his inclinations and that they are in fact perfectly capable of protecting themselves.

That makes me wonder... Would it really be considered a little chauvinistic in this timeline? The period alone would kind of lend to that belief but at the same time there are a LOT of women fending for themselves and assuming strong roles throughout society... I guess you could consider it a bit modern in that sense - where most people don't judge by sex nor race - but it still made me question myself for a moment there.

Coatleque · **06-25-2014, 11:22 AM**

(06-25-2014, 11:16 AM)Knahli Wrote: Would it really be considered a little chauvinistic in this timeline?

This is where things get very fuzzy. You have to separate the world itself from the real-life politics that game creators unfortunately MUST abide by. You are not going to find a game today out there, regardless of its theme or setting, that treats men and women as two distinct sexes anymore.

K'nahli · **06-25-2014, 11:27 AM**

(06-25-2014, 11:22 AM)Coatleque Wrote:
(06-25-2014, 11:16 AM)K Wrote: Would it really be considered a little chauvinistic in this timeline?

This is where things get very fuzzy. Â You have to separate the world itself from the real-life politics that game creators unfortunately MUST abide by. Â You are not going to find a game today out there, regardless of its theme or setting, that treats men and women as two distinct sexes anymore.

Ah I see ;Â Â Â I know many people like to find anything to complain about but I didn't think such a thing would be more controversial than the other things that get people all worked up.

So are you suggesting that your impression of Eorzea's inhabitants would be that there is a pretty typical level of "men are stronger and therefore better" than what a lot of the in-game content would imply?

(Apologies if this is pushing off topic)

Warren Castille · **06-25-2014, 11:33 AM**

(06-25-2014, 11:27 AM)Knahli Wrote: Ah I see ;Â Â Â I know many people like to find anything to complain about but I didn't think such a thing would be more controversial than the other things that get people all worked up.

So are you suggesting that your impression of Eorzea's inhabitants would be that there is a pretty typical level of "men are stronger and therefore better" than what a lot of the in-game content would imply?

(Apologies if this is pushing off topic)

Depending on your specific upbringing and circle, absolutely. Warren's backstory is <redacted> so he grew up in a setting where the women provided and cooked and the men did the hard labor. That's not how it is everywhere in the world, but it's what he grew up on, so he figures it's his job to protect women because they're the ones keeping the men up behind the scenes. Behind every strong man, as they say.

Coatleque · **06-25-2014, 11:43 AM**

(06-25-2014, 11:27 AM)Knahli Wrote: So are you suggesting that your impression of Eorzea's inhabitants would be that there is a pretty typical level of "men are stronger and therefore better" than what a lot of the in-game content would imply?
(Apologies if this is pushing off topic)

Not per say. What I am saying is that this still a very prevalent viewpoint in the world at large, and should be viewed as natural in any mideval/fantasy themed game. But any AAA title in the US market is going to downplay it for political reasons to avoid offending the majority.

Also, it's not a "stronger & better" thing so much as a "designed for the hunter/gatherer role vs designed for the nurturing/caregiver role".

Also, I should note here - I'm not inviting a flame war on this topic, I'm simply trying to expound on the concepts being discussed to avoid confusion on the whole matter. These do not reflect my personal viewpoints, just my understanding of the subject.

K'nahli · **06-25-2014, 11:55 AM**

(06-25-2014, 11:33 AM)Warren Castille Wrote:
(06-25-2014, 11:27 AM)K Wrote: Ah I see ;Â Â Â I know many people like to find anything to complain about but I didn't think such a thing would be more controversial than the other things that get people all worked up.

So are you suggesting that your impression of Eorzea's inhabitants would be that there is a pretty typical level of "men are stronger and therefore better" than what a lot of the in-game content would imply?

(Apologies if this is pushing off topic)

Depending on your specific upbringing and circle, absolutely. Warren's backstory is <redacted> so he grew up in a setting where the women provided and cooked and the men did the hard labor. That's not how it is everywhere in the world, but it's what he grew up on, so he figures it's his job to protect women because they're the ones keeping the men up behind the scenes. Behind every strong man, as they say.

Ah, nono. I was thinking outside of the exceptions which is something both of my characters would also be under to an extent. I can understand how it would vary from culture to culture but I was thinking more of the general populace if that makes sense ^^

(06-25-2014, 11:43 AM)Coatleque Wrote:
(06-25-2014, 11:27 AM)K Wrote: So are you suggesting that your impression of Eorzea's inhabitants would be that there is a pretty typical level of "men are stronger and therefore better" than what a lot of the in-game content would imply?
(Apologies if this is pushing off topic)

Not per say. Â What I am saying is that this still a very prevalent viewpoint in the world at large, and should be viewed as natural in any mideval/fantasy themed game. Â But any AAA title in the US market is going to downplay it for political reasons to avoid offending the majority.

Also, it's not a "stronger & better" thing so much as a "designed for the hunter/gatherer role vs designed for the nurturing/caregiver role".

Also, I should note here - I'm not inviting a flame war on this topic, I'm simply trying to expound on the concepts being discussed to avoid confusion on the whole matter. Â These do not reflect my personal viewpoints, just my understanding of the subject.

That was poorly written, sorry, I basically meant what you just said in your post. Regardless, the concept is still something that would lend to the mentality where women are second preference to men when it comes to the likes of... lets say military induction for example. I wasn't asking you if you thought that men openly looked down on women as second-class citizens; even if the game is influenced by real-life politics I wouldn't really conceive such an idea myself, haha. It would seem pretty random to me.

McBeefâ„¢ · **06-25-2014, 11:58 AM**

(06-25-2014, 11:43 AM)Coatleque Wrote:
(06-25-2014, 11:27 AM)Knahli Wrote: So are you suggesting that your impression of Eorzea's inhabitants would be that there is a pretty typical level of "men are stronger and therefore better" than what a lot of the in-game content would imply?
(Apologies if this is pushing off topic)

Not per say. What I am saying is that this still a very prevalent viewpoint in the world at large, and should be viewed as natural in any mideval/fantasy themed game. But any AAA title in the US market is going to downplay it for political reasons to avoid offending the majority.

Also, it's not a "stronger & better" thing so much as a "designed for the hunter/gatherer role vs designed for the nurturing/caregiver role".

Also, I should note here - I'm not inviting a flame war on this topic, I'm simply trying to expound on the concepts being discussed to avoid confusion on the whole matter. These do not reflect my personal viewpoints, just my understanding of the subject.

Actually... I think the setting of FFXIV basically implies that women are at the least equal, and possibly even in a more dominant role than men. The leaders of all three City states are female, the leader of the Scions is a woman, the leader of the Doman refugees is a woman. In Ul'dah especially, women lead the two most physically demanding Guilds, the Miners and the Gladiator's. Even seeker tribes are overwhelming led by women (according to square), most Nuhns are little more than breeding studs, and women actually run the tribes.

As for the sexes, my character treats them both the same. Though she can be a bit teasing of men when they want to play hero. She used to have issues with seeker tribes because of her backround, but since then she's stopped caring. Though she treats them both the same, Natalie's relations with other women tend to be pointedly different, even though she's attracted to them as well. Most male (not all) characters seem to see romance as the natural conclusion of things, while most (but not all) female characters are more interested in friendships (even if they're also attracted to women).

Oscare · **06-25-2014, 12:59 PM**

I know we're not trying to cause a flamewar (and I'm not either), but I feel like I should expand a bit on the "sexes" part.

While this game does have its very fair share of female-male NPCs, and we do have a lot of independent female leads, due to how society works (not going to delve into that any deeper to try to keep this at least as in-topic as possible), games kind of have to abide by the fact that men are workers while women are providers. Granted, this game very loosely ties to that, but the concept is still there. It's only natural that men would feel like other men should be able to stand up to themselves while they feel obligated (at least, most men do. I know Oscare does) to defend a woman if they're in trouble.

Again. I am not trying to invite a war to this. Just felt the need that the concept is there, and probably will not disappear. But I will safely say that this game tries to keep it at a bare minimum. Which is a warming thing to know.

Edit: I sincerely apologize, from hindsight this came off as sexist. This was not my intention.

Warren Castille · **06-25-2014, 01:05 PM**

There is a subtle but distinct difference between "I want to keep you safe and protect you" and "You will get hurt without me, you can't do this on your own." The trick is staying on the right side of the line without sounding like you're on the wrong one. Chivalry isn't "You're unable to defend yourself" though that's hard to convey sometimes.

McBeefâ„¢ · **06-25-2014, 01:07 PM**

(06-25-2014, 12:59 PM)Oscare Wrote: While this game does have its very fair share of female-male NPCs, and we do have a lot of independent female leads, due to how society works (not going to delve into that any deeper to try to keep this at least as in-topic as possible), games kind of have to abide by the fact that men are workers while women are providers.

That is not a fact.

Edit: It seems I misunderstood this. Sorry for my aggressive reply. Oscare means to say that it's a societal truth currently, but not a biological one.

Whittledown · **06-25-2014, 01:11 PM**

Yeah, from what I've seen of this game the males and females to pretty much the same jobs. Guards, soldiers, culinarians, whatever. The leaders of the three major factions are all female. The idea that women have some sort of predetermined 'role' in Eorzea seems to have a flimsy basis at best. Other places? Who knows. But Eorzea itself seems to be pretty solidly gender equal.

K'nahli · **06-25-2014, 01:14 PM**

We're talking about the game and the timeline it is set in(relative to the real world) though, not personal views on how the real, modern world works or how we think it should work. I really don't think we're treading on any touchy subjects here so long as it stays that way so you shouldn't worry about tip-toeing around it. I understand that you are perhaps making your stances clear so that no-one unnecessarily gets their feelings hurt but I think that acknowledging it as something that is a very dangerous subject brings more attention to that aspect than is really necessary ^^

In any case, I fear that this is getting a little off-topic so if the OP/a moderator/anyone for that matter would rather discuss it in a separate topic then feel free to request for it to stop here.

Edgar · **06-25-2014, 03:23 PM**

(06-25-2014, 01:14 PM)K Wrote: We're talking about the game and the timeline it is set in(relative to the real world) though, not personal views on how the real, modern world works or how we think it should work. I really don't think we're treading on any touchy subjects here so long as it stays that way so you shouldn't worry about tip-toeing around it. I understand that you are perhaps making your stances clear so that no-one unnecessarily gets their feelings hurt but I think that acknowledging it as something that is a very dangerous subject brings more attention to that aspect than is really necessary ^^

In any case, I fear that this is getting a little off-topic so if the OP/a moderator/anyone for that matter would rather discuss it in a separate topic then feel free to request for it to stop here.

A separate topic would be nice, I think. It's getting a little off-topic, but at the same time, it's an interesting direction you're going in, one worthy of its own discussion.

And Dearie Doe...

Quote:I loved reading everyone's views on this. ^ o ^

Exactly why I make these kinds of threads.

FreelanceWizard · **06-25-2014, 03:48 PM**

(06-25-2014, 01:14 PM)Knahli Wrote: In any case, I fear that this is getting a little off-topic so if the OP/a moderator/anyone for that matter would rather discuss it in a separate topic then feel free to request for it to stop here.

I'll do you one better and split it into a new thread for you. Smile

For reference, this thread was split from: http://ffxiv-roleplayers.com/showthread.php?tid=6798

K'nahli · **06-25-2014, 04:01 PM**

Ahah, thank you very much.

In any case, miqo'te cultures aside, I can understand how the relative timeline that FF14 is set in would lend some possibility to the idea that women are seen more as "nurturers", to use the words of Coatleque, which would result in perhaps in them having more difficulty in certain areas of life like joining the military in the case of my previous example, but there have been some good points about many women assuming very influential and powerful roles in the game.
It was suggested that not having women appear as "second-class citizens" in this game or any other was merely a way of avoiding controversy on the developers' part but the fact that quite a lot of women dominate these roles has drawn me skeptical from that idea once again.Â

Perhaps it is even possible that women are seen as "optimal" in a leadership role? I could lean either way on this really so I am interested to see what others have to say but as it stands I have been brought toward the idea that women are truly seen as equals if not "superior" in certain aspects within Eorzea.

Quotation marks, if not obvious, are just to indicate the lack of a better word for the context.

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Gender roles

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