+- Hydaelyn Role-Players (https://ffxiv-roleplayers.com/mybb18)
+-- Forum: Community (https://ffxiv-roleplayers.com/mybb18/forumdisplay.php?fid=8)
+--- Forum: RP Discussion (https://ffxiv-roleplayers.com/mybb18/forumdisplay.php?fid=13)
+--- Thread: How important is OOC achievement when playing a powerful character ICly? (/showthread.php?tid=12251)
RE: How important is OOC achievement when playing a powerful character ICly? - Thorgar - 06-25-2015
am I the odd duck out? I actually run my raids In character and do just fine (admittedly on the games im not new at lol). My wife and i are used to RPing during quests, raids, dungeons, or even out farming. We are no slouches when it comes to playing pve either, she was the top raid healer for her everquest 2 server for years, and i was ranked #3 tank on city of heroes virtue server for more than a year.
I have always seen RP as being in character while you play the character not stopping and pretending to move places while all talking in a circle. I run pathfinder games on Saturdays for that lol.
Am i just misunderstanding the RP talk? (the terms do seem to change everytime i turn around... yay getting old lol)
RE: How important is OOC achievement when playing a powerful character ICly? - Naunet - 06-25-2015
(06-24-2015, 06:18 PM)Aya Wrote:(06-24-2015, 06:10 PM)Dogberry Wrote: Go back and read the stuff I wrote in posts you didn't respond to and you'll see what I'm trying to say laid out more clearly.I have been, and I don't really see how its any different from how I categorized it. You'e worried about the look, and kit of characters representing their role correctly. I really think its entirely unnecessary (which is why I said what I did about a level 1 in starter clothes RPing as if in fancy noble attire).Â
Maybe its just because I am a pen-and-paper and forum RPer at heart. I feel that the avatar should be, at most, a visual-aid for RP when appropriate, but that its the text that is canonical, important, and interesting for RP. If the avatar is useless as a visual aid, I really don't mind, I am more than willing to go along with it, if I'm enjoying the RP.
To me, the avatar is a tool, not a limitation. I see far more possibility for fun that way, and wouldn't have it any other way. I know you at least understand that, since you're willing to RP classes that simply don't exist. So I can't fully understand why you apply a different rubric to those that do. To me, they're completely the same. What matters is the RP world, not the game-as-game.Â
I really want to say, again, that I'm not trying to convince you to do otherwise. It really is to each their own, enjoyment of RP is an entirely subjective matter. The only thing I took any exception to, whatsoever, was the suggestion that people who don't want to level a character to RP it, shouldn't bother with MMO RP.
Edit: I will just add that I do like it when the visual aid is there! Â Its fun RPing with people who put a lot of effort into their look, their outfits, gear, and fashion (obviously I do quite a bit of this myself!) Â I just understand the innate limitations of the game engine's ability to portray our characters.
I just wanted to swing by here and voice my support for pretty much everything you've said in this thread, Aya. xD I have roleplayed and roleplayed with sooooo many characters that were not at all like what their OOC avatar may present. It's very easy for me to draw a line and accept whatever the player is describing as their character. Heck in TERA, my husband roleplayed the main villain of a huge rp plot, which included a level 11 baraka (decked out in the best armor skins we could buy lol) plus several other level 11 characters that were actually constructs made of termite mud or flesh or swamp-nastiness but were represented in-game by a castanic or aman or baraka. And these things wiped the floor with many a level 60 rp character. XD I had not a single issue with it! We've also been known in the past to spend so much time roleplaying that it takes us ages to level, so...
Yeah, I just don't associate OOC game constructs with IC things at all. :S
RE: How important is OOC achievement when playing a powerful character ICly? - Unnamed Mercenary - 06-25-2015
(06-25-2015, 01:02 AM)Thorgar Wrote: am I the odd duck out? I actually run my raids In character and do just fine (admittedly on the games im not new at lol). My wife and i are used to RPing during quests, raids, dungeons, or even out farming. We are no slouches when it comes to playing pve either, she was the top raid healer for her everquest 2 server for years, and i was ranked #3 tank on city of heroes virtue server for more than a year.
I have always seen RP as being in character while you play the character not stopping and pretending to move places while all talking in a circle. I run pathfinder games on Saturdays for that lol.
Am i just misunderstanding the RP talk? (the terms do seem to change everytime i turn around... yay getting old lol)
While there are a collection of players who RP within the main scenerio quest, I think the RPC has a wide variety of characters, many of which take on a much...lesser role in the story? I've found most are about standard NPC/city-NPC tier, generally without the Echo or Warrior of Light statuses. Some may go so far as to only roleplay a class and not a job, should the game's lore present the job as a "only the main character who is super special can become this".
That is not to disuade you from RPing what you like, however! I think a balance and perhaps even a gradient of characters and their abilities is what makes the game feel so alive. When one can be a simple city-dweller up to the hero who saves the day, it allows for a very diverse amount of roleplay to occur. That said, a low-fantasy minded player/character is not likely to mesh well with a high-fantasy minded player/character. It's just the nature of RP. It is expected that people be respectful of others' playstyles (even if you can't take their character seriously or anything else)
((in terms of my own roleplay, Franz is certainly not the main character. Or even that skilled in his matial abilities. But he's durable. And has a mess of problems that are fun to work through, although they certainly push some of the lore to its limits.))
RE: How important is OOC achievement when playing a powerful character ICly? - Thorgar - 06-25-2015
(06-25-2015, 01:19 AM)Unnamed Mercenary Wrote:(06-25-2015, 01:02 AM)Thorgar Wrote: am I the odd duck out? I actually run my raids In character and do just fine (admittedly on the games im not new at lol). My wife and i are used to RPing during quests, raids, dungeons, or even out farming. We are no slouches when it comes to playing pve either, she was the top raid healer for her everquest 2 server for years, and i was ranked #3 tank on city of heroes virtue server for more than a year.
I have always seen RP as being in character while you play the character not stopping and pretending to move places while all talking in a circle. I run pathfinder games on Saturdays for that lol.
Am i just misunderstanding the RP talk? (the terms do seem to change everytime i turn around... yay getting old lol)
While there are a collection of players who RP within the main scenerio quest, I think the RPC has a wide variety of characters, many of which take on a much...lesser role in the story? I've found most are about standard NPC/city-NPC tier, generally without the Echo or Warrior of Light statuses. Some may go so far as to only roleplay a class and not a job, should the game's lore present the job as a "only the main character who is super special can become this".
That is not to disuade you from RPing what you like, however! I think a balance and perhaps even a gradient of characters and their abilities is what makes the game feel so alive. When one can be a simple city-dweller up to the hero who saves the day, it allows for a very diverse amount of roleplay to occur. That said, a low-fantasy minded player/character is not likely to mesh well with a high-fantasy minded player/character. It's just the nature of RP. It is expected that people be respectful of others' playstyles (even if you can't take their character seriously or anything else)
((in terms of my own roleplay, Franz is certainly not the main character. Or even that skilled in his matial abilities. But he's durable. And has a mess of problems that are fun to work through, although they certainly push some of the lore to its limits.))
actually when it comes to the point that the main story is a "chosen one" type i ignore it when i RP, cause everyone is the chosen one. I still make a character that fits the world and roleplay it accordingly. dungeons and raids i pass off as major raids or encounters other than teh story line one given as most dont want to kill teh big bad ubermiench every day ICly.
as to other peoples styles, i never try to step on anyone's toes, i dont like it when others try to ruin my fun so i wont do that to another. I usually talk oocly with the story teller for a RP session to make sure I know the ground rules and am comfortable with them. Â
I hope i didnt come off as some kinda elitist arsehat, was not my intention lol. I find it odd when i hear RP'ers cant do PVE or PVP, maybe cause i started on teh RPPVP server in Everquest?
hmm just hit me what tickles my bad bone with completely non lore characters. its like running a D&D game with a set campaign setting and suddenly one of your players throws in Gamma World characters. Im used to running or playing with a set of rules and playing within the set boundries of that universe. same goes for MMORPG's which are just the next logical step for table top gaming. heh my issue not anyone elses
.  all said and done i DO look forward to gaming with all of you at some point, we just set down ground rules ahead of time (like house rules) so everyone is on the same page and then have a damn fun good time.
RE: How important is OOC achievement when playing a powerful character ICly? - Caspar - 06-25-2015
I personally just want more people in general to attempt the hard content, as it's well designed and a good element of the game. I do not think it is too difficult for the average player to do if they apply themselves. I enjoy the g and not just the rp in mmorpg, so I'd love for others to gain the same appreciation of it as I do. That doesn't mean I'd rate a character more favorably for being better geared or having a higher ilevel, but it would please me to see that they work hard OOC as well as ICly. I definitely would trust them to be around a lot, too, if not necessarily always available. Many people know I raid on another server, like Sounsyy. (Same server actually...) and thus there will be nights where I cannot rp much and nights where I must leavev events early, but other times I do try to spend roughly equal amounts of time on both my non rp and rp character.
As for the crappy gear thing, I think that it's up to you to get the gear you want to make your character "look" the part. You can of course tell people about it in rp, but wouldn't it be simpler to have a rough approximation of what your character looks like at hand? Props are great tools for accentuating character. There was a sequence I played in in which my character putting on a pair of uncharacteristic earrings was highly symbolic, but I ended up having to mention it in emote to make it clear what was going on. I kinda wished that I could get away with merely changing the gear, as that felt more subtle. There also was a sequence involving the removal of my character's eyepatch, something she is shyer about than nudity. I did emote that out as well, but I feel actually having access to all the gear in the game gives me great props with which I can show something happening as much as possible. Likewise I'm glad this expansion gave Monk more buffing abilities, as they are untargeted and can be used to emote for rp. Pretty sure Form Shift is going to be a "punching" emote for quite some time. Dunno what I'm going to do with the laser beams. Maybe this is how Virara empties a bucket of really blue water.
Melikre: I seem to have misunderstood you. I got the impression you equated something as mundane in a fantasy setting as ranged physical blows as outlandish as the miqo'te example and would avoid it at all costs due to OOC bias. That seemed unreasonable to me so I pointed it out, but if you're saying you'd roll with it despite it not being *personally* your style, as long as a reason for it that makes sense exists, then I can't really claim you're overly inflexible. That's more or less how I do things with less overt suspicion; if a player does something out of the boundaries of their stated profession, I just usually ask for some elaboration OOC so I know how to respond and whether my character should know about it. I would be discouraged to see people with visibility on the forum avoiding skilled rpers with detailed explanations as to why their character can do things outside of the canon class, simply because their approach to rping did not mesh with the gritty Europhile hyur blood and iron sort of rp that seems overwhelmingly popular these days and yet is not held up in the slightest by the setting. It inevitably happens regardless of what people talk about on the forums, but I want to stress openmindedness, not simply avoiding having a preference entirely.
That and what I always stress, that it's okay to not suck or be mundane, and the overwhelming pressure to conform and "not snowflake" on the forum is stifling to creativity sometime. I see things that reduce what is considered acceptable play, such as people relying on IC level to determine proficiency in a job, as to a certain extent part of that. In any case, I don't mind people using the approach but only because I'm lucky enough to play PVE obsessively too. It isn't always fair to people who do not progress, and I want to help others feel like their character has the appropriate credibility for the given rp at hand.
RE: How important is OOC achievement when playing a powerful character ICly? - Naunet - 06-25-2015
(06-25-2015, 03:18 AM)Caspar Wrote: As for the crappy gear thing, I think that it's up to you to get the gear you want to make your character "look" the part.
Really what "gear" does a person need to be a good fighter? The raid gear doesn't really say "I'm a highly skilled hand-to-hand combatant" any more than a guy in some level 20 greens. Not ICly, at least. And functionally a lot of the raid gear is just ridiculous, with all of its dangly whatsits and various additions.
Maybe someone feels pretty satisfied that they "look" the part in the pants they picked up from a lowbie quest and a shirt that dropped from Sastasha.
RE: How important is OOC achievement when playing a powerful character ICly? - Magellan - 06-25-2015
(06-25-2015, 10:14 AM)Naunet Wrote:Lol. Yea. If someone tried to rp with me wearing some of the end game stuff, I'd be inclined to think they were actually icly a bad fighter who didn't wear functional gear and was maybe trying to overcompensate.(06-25-2015, 03:18 AM)Caspar Wrote: As for the crappy gear thing, I think that it's up to you to get the gear you want to make your character "look" the part.
Really what "gear" does a person need to be a good fighter? The raid gear doesn't really say "I'm a highly skilled hand-to-hand combatant" any more than a guy in some level 20 greens. Not ICly, at least. And functionally a lot of the raid gear is just ridiculous, with all of its dangly whatsits and various additions.
Maybe someone feels pretty satisfied that they "look" the part in the pants they picked up from a lowbie quest and a shirt that dropped from Sastasha.
Rarely does true strength flaunt and brag (unless ur Hercules. Or Garlean. But the Garleans keep losing and Hercules wore a loincloth)
RE: How important is OOC achievement when playing a powerful character ICly? - Caspar - 06-25-2015
Oh, I mean more in terms of "this gear should look vaguely like what you describe your character as wearing." Like I don't think it should be mandatory or anything, but I personally find it helpful for a character who says he's wearing a sword at his belt to be wearing a sword. I don't care about the quality specifically. I have Virara wear relatively plain-looking lower-level hora rather than lvl 50 ones because IC she breaks 'em as often as she washes her clothes. (And she only has like, two sets of clothes...) Thus she buys bulk, cheap hora, because in her experience none survive the severe training she puts herself through, and her freakish strength. I wouldn't want people to assume she's only a midrank fighter because she is wielding a lvl 30 weapon, but if they did that, I'd just play along and say they critically underestimated her, and that they'd probably recant soon enough.
Or they wouldn't, if dice is involved, because I rarely roll over the mean, lol.
RE: How important is OOC achievement when playing a powerful character ICly? - Flickering Ember - 06-25-2015
Awww, 11 pages already? Too bad I didn't get to post earlier. I suppose it will be lost in the sea of discussion but here goes anyway. I'll be writing this post blind, as in not reading any of the other prior posts. That way, I can speak without forming any biases.
That said, what did I vote for? I'll get to that in a bit but first I would like to start off with the question: when these topics are asked in RP communities why is combat ability and power always focused on? This isn't a question directed at the participants in this thread nor is it directed at Sasha Rochester, the OP. It is directed to everyone in RP community and those that extend beyond RPC.
I do appreciate Sasha Rochester's wording here. She uses 'achievement' and not 'levels' or 'power level' or something of the equivalent. What about wisdom and charisma? The ability to settle disputes through pacifism? Wit and trickery? The ability to silently stealth past any threat? The ability to lead effectively? Survival skills? Etc.
It's a question that gets asked at least once in RP communities' forums. Though, I am grateful that the RPC seems to focus less on RP combat then other discussion boards. When a character can solve everything with combat skills, in general I think it makes the RP feel less fun. Sometimes, combat can't win over a situation. For a character who is proficient with combat might have character flaws to make up for it that make them interesting character.
Being good at combat, just for the sake of it just doesn't interest me. There needs to be more to the character than that.
What did I vote then? I voted "No, it doesn't matter."
What matters is writing ability. I can believe someone is strong if they are written to be in a believable way. The better able someone is to convince through writing that their characters strong, the more I will believe them. Leveling, raids, PVP, none of this matters in the end. If a role player doesn't have the writing ability to back it up, no amount of PVP is going to make me think that your character is capable or awesome.
Beyond that, I can't explain further because it becomes a matter of preference. Some role players put what happens in the game first and what is written by other players second. That is a legitimate preference that I can't deny.
But it's just not something I can connect with for my own preference. Much of RP is dependent upon writing and social interaction. If you don't have those things then you don't have RP. It's that simple.
I would like to close out this post with giving a positive example of a character and role player who can lend himself to both sides of the argument. He is a terror in PVP and raids actively. He is also a very capable and strong writer with a well-balanced character. His character has been portrayed very clearly to be a power house and he has several character flaws and strengths to help balance that out. His name is Zaius Rhal'seer.Â
His character is both strong in game and is strong through his writing. We can believe that his character has power because it is such a focus in how he RP's the character and in Zaius's own story. However, through writing, we get the idea that having Zaius' power wouldn't be all that it is cracked up to be. There are very serious drawbacks for the kind of power that he has been able to achieve. They are constantly a factor in RP.
Though, perhaps if you are strong with writing AND have very capable in game accomplishments, it may even give your character more credit.
RE: How important is OOC achievement when playing a powerful character ICly? - Gegenji - 06-25-2015
So, from what I've managed to gather from the debate and conversation held here... I have a general query that I think is at least somewhat relevant to the topic at hand:
For those who keep at least a tentative link between OOC progress and IC power - what is a reasonable amount of physical/arcane power for someone of average level (let's use 30 since it's right dab in the middle) to claim for the type of RP that you play, and how much does this "hard cap" get affected by the level of the character itself? What, in your mind, would be something that this "level 30" could accomplish, and what would be outside the realm of their ability?
As I mentioned, I don't really tie OOC level with IC capability - and have only leveled classes for wider dress-up options and to actually be able to help OOCly where I can with dungeon runs and the like. So, as you can probably tell with my questions to Dogberry, I'm rather curious as to how others who DO go about it that way. Is there a sort of mental metric involved, starting from generic citizen all the way up to Slayer of Primals? At what levels could people do what?
Is it, as people have mentioned, attributing power akin to what you might see in similar level ranges in DnD and other pen-and-paper games? The level one characters are running errands for the guards, killing rats for innkeepers, and the like... with the level 10s (our 30s, if we're considering 2nd edition) starting to become well-known and owners of sizable power and property (castles and such)... and the level 20s and beyond being those that can waltz into the depths of hell or into the heavens to lay the smack-down on whatever deity has garnered their ire?
Or is it just more a measure of comparison - this guy is level 10 and I'm level 30, so I should be substantially stronger/better than them? I'm curious to hear thoughts and opinions on such matters. And how those that link OOC accomplishments to IC power go about doing it.
RE: How important is OOC achievement when playing a powerful character ICly? - Caspar - 06-25-2015
Yeah, that's very true. I like to use "proficiency" cause it ties into my usual schpiel about it being okay to not suck, as the forum tends to make a virtue of being mundane or lacking ability for fear of being a Sue. I think more than that is the ability to "sell" your character to those around you. So and so is a decorated merchant because his family owned a company and raised him to run it, etc.
RE: How important is OOC achievement when playing a powerful character ICly? - Magellan - 06-25-2015
The problem with treating ooc level aS ic is it seems to indicate that the character had this yellow brick road of achievement.Â
Whatever happened to setbacks? Or abject failure? Maybe they started out in the pugilist guild but failed the teachings, so learned their own style. You know... like the guy from the monk quests that goes rogue.
On gear: does the fact that my scholar wears a lvl 50 robe make it okay for her to summon a fairy, but if she changed into her moogle footie pj's she suddenly wouldn't be able to?
RE: How important is OOC achievement when playing a powerful character ICly? - Flickering Ember - 06-25-2015
(06-25-2015, 10:49 AM)Flickering Ember Wrote: If a role player doesn't have the writing ability to back it up, no amount of PVP is going to make me think that your character is capable or awesome.I would like to dissect my post here. I'm going to go into further detail with the sentence. As I look back over it, I worry that this one might be interpreted as being more harsh than I want it to.
In the role-playing community, writing ability vastly differs from RPer to RPer. I avoid judging other role players' writing styles. Though, I do recognize when someone is particularly talented.
This sentence from my original post comes with a bit of back story to it. I used to play in WoW, and my RP experiences from that game were a lot different from the ones in this one. Though, since it was the first MMO I RPed in, it also helped form many of my RP opinions.
I met many more role players in that community who focused entirely on PvE/PvP and yet when they joined in RP, they showed up with the most basic of RP skills. These players I would run into never showed progress past being an RP newbie.
They would have terribly clichéd back stories, had no personalities, and would pretty much have one sentence replies. But because they were decked out in purples and could kick your ass in PVP, somehow I was expected to take them more seriously in terms of combat and personal achievements?Â
No. I don't think so.
It's understandable that a lot of the RP community is self-conscious about their writing ability. RP can be difficult and we often end up worrying whether or not people will like our characters. I totally understand that. I don't want people to get the impression that they need to have a bachelors in English for me to be able to take their characters seriously.
What I want to see is people being passionate. People who love their characters and love writing for them. I like seeing people who continuously seek growth and new skills. I do like a realistic approach to combat and thus enjoy practical life-like approaches to combat RP and power. (Vs. Something like Guts slaughtering hundreds of people in an hour)
But I also like RPing and I don't need everything 100% tailored towards me. I'm happy just to interact with you.
RE: How important is OOC achievement when playing a powerful character ICly? - Flashhelix - 06-25-2015
People like to use OOC level as a safeguard against bad level 3 edgemasters running up and trying to dominate their character, but I'm certain that 90% of the terrible "Hello, I can demolish a building with a single strike and control gravity" roleplayers are fifties, at least from what I encountered. Level's hardly a barrier to these people when you get into the really egregious stuff.
RE: How important is OOC achievement when playing a powerful character ICly? - Klynzahr - 06-25-2015
(06-24-2015, 07:09 PM)Dogberry Wrote:(06-24-2015, 07:03 PM)Verad Wrote:(06-24-2015, 07:01 PM)Dogberry Wrote: Yeah, I leveled the job. They didn't. I don't see why that's bad.
And yes. Their emote is their perception of events. My emotes are mine.
Because you didn't have to level the job. You chose to level the job. To insist others must sounds less like a principled decision and more like sour grapes.
As for that - if both posts are only perceptions of events, then where is the objective (fictional) reality between them?
Actually, I do feel I had to level the job I wanted to RP. That's my standard, and if a player doesn't measure up to my standards, I'm no more obligated to RP with them any more than they are obligated to play up to my standard.
The truth lies in the /random in that instance only in that it connected or didn't. Good form, or bad, is a matter of perception.
The trouble that I find with arguments like this, is that they leave players who have limited time or resources to invest in the game with a huge disadvantage, despite the fact that many of us pour dozens of valuable hours into our RP.
For example I willingly acknowledge that I am a terrible tank. I dislike playing the role, my timing and positioning are pathetic, and up until last month I was playing on an old, laggy laptop that seriously exacerbated the problem.
By your logic I would be permanently barred from role playing as any gladiator, marauder, warrior, paladin, or dark knight character concept, irregardless of my ability to write for that character.
Klynzahr would never have existed
Instead I used White Mage to complete the MSQ in a job that I was familiar with. I leveled a few other disciple of magic classes for my own enjoyment, but I have played too many of those characters and Klyn was speaking to me. Then over a period of several months, I dragged Klyn up to level 25 gladiator and began role playing her as she was.
I find your assessment of a person's commitment based solely upon OOC in game milestones like level 50 to be flawed. There are many people who have leveled everything to 50 and show minimal dedication to their RP. On the opposite side stand people like myself, who for whatever reason are behind in the game but will happily pour all of their free time into a character.
At level 25 I had access to several sets of mail, basic half plate, and the particular sword that I wanted for Klynzahr. In fact she still uses the same weapon, despite the fact that I finally bit the bullet and got 50 paladin for her. I hope that some of you may consider being more open minded for the sake of RPers in unusual situations. No one likes to be excluded, particularly when they are just starting out.