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+--- Thread: Discussion time! Relative military strength of each faction! (/showthread.php?tid=8988)
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Discussion time! Relative military strength of each faction! - Zelmanov - 11-17-2014
Note, this not about Twin Badders, Failstroms or Immoral Lames in pvp, this is about some fun discussion about the strengths weaknesses and overall deadliness of each city states military via lore.Â
My thoughts, from strongest to weakest
Garlemald
Ala Mhigo (before Garlean occupation)
Ishgard - Doma (pre-Garlean invasion)
Limsa Lominsa
Ul'dah
Gridania
as for why?
Garlemald just has massive numbers and magitek, we only contend with 2 out of a total so far of 14 legions in game and we need all except Ishgard to band together to fend them off. Essentially Eorzea is turning into a Garlean Vietnam in my mind at least in terms of "we don't need to toss everything at them" and then they do. Also constant talk of "The instant Garlemald turns all their forces on us, we are toast".
Ala Mhigo also forced Eorzea to band together, so they must have been strong. An army of Monks? That dps would be through the roof. Jokes aside, I believe this secures them a spot along with Garlemald.
Ishgard has spent 1000 years fighting dragons mostly alone, either they reproduce like rabbits or their military is very very well designed to prevent losses. It is also the only Eorzean military we see with siege weaponry in game...or at least the most commonly. Also, I feel it stands to reason that a military in constant practice would be a more deadly force than more ornamental armies. It has also gotten to the point that death by anything but dragon is unworthy of a grave, that's some warrior race stuff right there.
I was unsure of putting Doma here, but according to the Ninja storyline they were doing fine until they were betrayed and had their military movements revealed to the enemy. Meaning their tactics were deadly enough as long as they weren't found out but lacked the raw man power.
Limsa Lominsa would have the best navy, period. Also pirates are arguably the most organized of thieves since a poorly run boat will end up sinking in the open ocean. Those who are in Limsa's military, especially in a first generation run (since it was established by Merlwyb only recently) would primarily be composed of former pirates who either still had the blood lust or lost their crews. Basically people who didn't want to be privateers but could not give up the old ways. Also several quest lines have you trying to recruit former pirates to join Limsa's forces. These are people who are already used to killing and ruthlessness and such will not be the first to cringe at the sight of blood. Their efficacy on land is questionable and surely may have issues with splintering command, IE captains going rogue and their crew more loyal to them than to Limsa. I'd argue their proficiency with artillery, what with cannons being a piratey thing would also be quite damn good.
Ul'Dah, I feel, would have a very large army that was not the best trained nor the most loyal, but definitely largest of the three city states. I say this because Ul'Dah is a large merchant city, meaning a city composed primarily of artisans and intellectuals and nobility, little value is placed on fighting outside the Colosseum (which is why Ala Mhigans like the one in Hildebrand's story tries to find their fortune there) and those who do well there most likely retire or get hired as personal guards for the rich. Of course there are those like Raubahn but he is the exception, not the rule. As such I believe Ul'dahn military would most likely be primarily composed of the poor and unskilled, not good enough to fight in the Colosseum, not thrifty enough to be a merchant, they fight because being a soldier pays and may be the first to falter (don't pay me enough for this).
Gridania is a very secluded, living in the shroud with protection from elementals and has given me the impression (correct me if I am wrong) to have a much lower population. their standing army would be understandably tiny, for defense mostly. However, they seem to be extremely skilled, Wailers and Godsbow all moving quite comfortably and effectively in their own terrain and fighting back Ala Mhigan advances onto their territory. I mean, have you ever tried wielding a giant spear in a thicket? it's a tad inconvenient. Also, having the foremost conjurers and elementals on their side probably means a lot of fights can be salvageable barring a complete and total slaughter due to skilled healers nearby. So while skilled, I believe they lack the numbers and not constantly at war enough to be practiced beyond defense.
well there's my buck fifty (because this definitely ain't 2 cents)
How about yours?
RE: Discussion time! Relative military strength of each faction! - Hiro - 11-17-2014
Ala Mhigo wasn't necessarily an army consisting entirely of Monks, further it seems their military powers were fractions within themselves sort of like Ul'dah with the Flames and Blades. It's very likely that the Monks there were more like the Sultan sworn in number and alleged skill. A formidable force for certain but contributing to military might as a major asset, I'd be skeptical. They were an aggressive nation and did unite the three city states against them during the Autumn war, but that doesn't mean to say that they may have only been a sufficient military might to crush a single city, clearly not three, quite possibly not even two. It is also likely the loss of the Autumn War set them back quite a bit.
The fact that they were taken over by the Garlean Empire was a flag to the City States that a threat at least powerful enough to take them out individually was approaching. When they formed their coalition it is unlikely they really grasped how strong the Empire was.
As for Ishgard, there is text already that indicates their military's weakness to non-Draconian combat. Which means their might is probably not based upon numbers only but their tactics, fortifications, and specialized weaponry against Dragons. It also seems to imply that Dragoon techniques really aren't meant for open war.
As I recall the PVP scenario for the Flats is representative of a stalemate conflict between the three military's. I figure despite their various advantages and disadvantages with that area being a described stand off, their military strengths despite their obvious flaws and merits, are quite close to being the same.
RE: Discussion time! Relative military strength of each faction! - Kage - 11-17-2014
This reminds me of the thread I made but it only dealt with Ul'dah, Gridania and Limsa Lominsa.
Something I read about in the ninja job dialogue is that the Domans were doing fine because their attacks and such were so unfamiliar to the Garleans but once they were betrayed all their tactics, movements, and skillsets were revealed.
It's like telling someone how your nice big "indestructible" tank works and what its weaknesses are as well as its route.
RE: Discussion time! Relative military strength of each faction! - Coatleque - 11-17-2014
Also keep in mind that Ala'Mhigo had fended off the Empire for years. It was clear they would not go down militarily, even against a vastly technologically superior army (the Empire). What ultimately made them fall was political division and imperial subterfuge.
Garlean weaponry is very powerful, but SE has done a very clear job of showing that those who can control Aether are just as powerful and able to deflect/nullify magitek.
RE: Discussion time! Relative military strength of each faction! - Zelmanov - 11-17-2014
the monk thing was a more a joke and not meant to be taken seriously. However Ala mhigo was enough of a threat to believe that one city state would fall and eventually push to others. Given how much arm twisting it took for them to band together once more after the calamity and before hand, ala mhigo must have been quite a force.Â
Would you care to pass me the text source about Ishgard being overspecialized? Would love to see it and bolster my lore knowledge
RE: Discussion time! Relative military strength of each faction! - Zelmanov - 11-17-2014
(11-17-2014, 05:20 PM)Coatleque Wrote: Also keep in mind that Ala'Mhigo had fended off the Empire for years. Â It was clear they would not go down militarily, even against a vastly technologically superior army (the Empire). Â What ultimately made them fall was political division and imperial subterfuge.
Garlean weaponry is very powerful, but SE has done a very clear job of showing that those who can control Aether are just as powerful and able to deflect/nullify magitek.
How much of a force was dedicated to conquering Ala Mhigo? Is it known? At least in MSQ it gives the impression that if the entire might of the empire was thrown against a single nation, they win. They don't because of want to expand quickly...and if anyone played starcraft, a-moving your entire army is rarely the smart choice for a lasting empire XD
RE: Discussion time! Relative military strength of each faction! - Hiro - 11-17-2014
(11-17-2014, 05:21 PM)Zelmanov Wrote: the monk thing was a more a joke and not meant to be taken seriously. However Ala mhigo was enough of a threat to believe that one city state would fall and eventually push to others. Given how much arm twisting it took for them to band together once more after the calamity and before hand, ala mhigo must have been quite a force.Â
Would you care to pass me the text source about Ishgard being overspecialized? Would love to see it and bolster my lore knowledge
It's part of the 2.4 storyline.
RE: Discussion time! Relative military strength of each faction! - Aya - 11-17-2014
Ishgard would seem to have no need or interest in fighting anyone other than Dravinians, and is over-specialized, but one can imagine that a regiment of Ishgardian Dragoons would be a boon to any combined Eorzean army
RE: Discussion time! Relative military strength of each faction! - Sounsyy - 11-17-2014
(11-17-2014, 05:28 PM)Zelmanov Wrote: How much of a force was dedicated to conquering Ala Mhigo? Is it known?
Very little force was used against Ala Mhigo, only the XIVth legion was used to the best of our knowledge. Gaius van Baelsar and the Garleans sewed civil unrest into the nation until driven mad with conspiracy plots and false claims to divine right, the King of Ruin led his standing army of Lancers (the main force of Ala Mhigo's military might and acclaimed greatest lancer legions in the world) against his own people and slaughtered the Order of the Fists of Rhalgr (monks) crippling his own military. After 5 years of living under his mad tyranny, the Ala Mhigans hated their King, and when the Garleans presented themselves as saviors to the Ala Mhigans and assassinated the King of Ruin, they took Ala Mhigo in a single night. Any who resisted were slaughtered.
As for their military might before that, Ala Mhigo was one of the greatest military powers in Eorzea. In the time of the Autumn War, it took the combined strength of Ishgard, Ul'dah, and Limsa to repel their advance into Gridanian territory.
However, before Commander Vainchelon of the Gridanian armies fell ill, Gridania was expected to single-handedly defeat the advancing Ala Mhigans at the start of the Autumn War. However, upon his death, his successor, a man named Osbern ordered a full out offensive of the Ala Mhigan line. The Gridanians were decimated by the Ala Mhigans. Where once they were poised for victory, the Gridanians had been utterly defeated by Osbern's inexperience as a leader and tactician. It was then that the Ishgardians rallied the other nations of the Eorzean Alliance to aid Gridania in repelling Ala Mhigo from the Twelveswood.
RE: Discussion time! Relative military strength of each faction! - Coatleque - 11-17-2014
(11-17-2014, 05:55 PM)Sounsyy Wrote: Very little force was used against Ala Mhigo, only the XIVth legion was used to the best of our knowledge.
Was this the last push? I'm fairly certain I had read somewhere that the Empire did try a full-out offensive before they began sowing discord.
RE: Discussion time! Relative military strength of each faction! - Sounsyy - 11-17-2014
(11-17-2014, 06:06 PM)Coatleque Wrote: Was this the last push? I'm fairly certain I had read somewhere that the Empire did try a full-out offensive before they began sowing discord.
I believe you are correct in that they made offensive efforts against Ala Mhigo prior to Gaius implementing a more devious plan to conquer the nation. But I don't recall it ever stating any other legions besides the XIVth, as Gaius gets all the credit for conquering the nation and becomes Minister(?) over Ala Mhigo.
It's possible other legions were used, but definitely not the entire might of the Empire, as the VIIth legion and several others were still occupied with conquering the remnant forces in Othard at the time according to 1.0's GC storyline. The Emperor brought Nael van Darnus and his VIIth legion to the Eorzean theater after Gaius failed to seize Silvertear Lake thanks to Midgardsormr. Afraid to press forward, Gaius retreated and fell from the Emperor's favor, and was replaced by Nael who promised he would bring down the moon upon the Empire's enemies.
RE: Discussion time! Relative military strength of each faction! - Yssen - 11-17-2014
(11-17-2014, 06:06 PM)Coatleque Wrote:(11-17-2014, 05:55 PM)Sounsyy Wrote: Very little force was used against Ala Mhigo, only the XIVth legion was used to the best of our knowledge.
Was this the last push? Â I'm fairly certain I had read somewhere that the Empire did try a full-out offensive before they began sowing discord.
There were skirmishes and battles before they took Ala Mhigo, but not an all out offensive. The only all out Imperial offensive was the Battle of Silver Tear, where the Agrius was destroyed by the awakening of Midgardsomr and a huge amount of dragons. This loss, combined with the Empire encountering a Primal on one of their other fronts is what halted their advance until 1.0.
It should be noted that how Ala Mhigo fell was Gaius' exact modus operandi. He did not wish to lay waste to anything in Eorzea unless absolutely necessary, and strongly believed in leaving infrastructure and even some local government and institutions intact. He was dedicated to the concept that there must be something left behind to rule.
As for relative military might. It is worth noting that the as of right now, the Eorzean Alliance is unable to push the Empire out of their remaining bases. It should also be noted that those bases are being held by what is, effectively, the remnants of a single legion. The empire has AT LEAST thirteen other Legions, and may have more.
RE: Discussion time! Relative military strength of each faction! - Coatleque - 11-17-2014
(11-17-2014, 06:35 PM)Yssen Wrote: the Eorzean Alliance is unable to push the Empire out of their remaining bases.
Unable to? Or Unwilling to? I've not seen any quests yet where they even make an attempt at it. The remnants of the legion seem to be only an afterthought.
RE: Discussion time! Relative military strength of each faction! - Zelmanov - 11-17-2014
(11-17-2014, 05:42 PM)Hiro Wrote:(11-17-2014, 05:21 PM)Zelmanov Wrote: the monk thing was a more a joke and not meant to be taken seriously. However Ala mhigo was enough of a threat to believe that one city state would fall and eventually push to others. Given how much arm twisting it took for them to band together once more after the calamity and before hand, ala mhigo must have been quite a force.Â
Would you care to pass me the text source about Ishgard being overspecialized? Would love to see it and bolster my lore knowledge
It's part of the 2.4 storyline.
Being 2.4 is in recent memory, all I saw was their talk of just being unwilling to fight anything else period, not that they are ill equipped to handle any other threat..unless you are talking about the lime about them being ill equipped to handle Shiva, in which case, well, every city is, you need either waves of lemmings or someone with echo to fight a primal.Â
Something which all city states so far have gone "Well, hope a hero comes a long before we result in the former tactic"
also "OMG A SOUNSYY POST"
RE: Discussion time! Relative military strength of each faction! - Hiro - 11-17-2014
(11-17-2014, 06:59 PM)Zelmanov Wrote:(11-17-2014, 05:42 PM)Hiro Wrote:(11-17-2014, 05:21 PM)Zelmanov Wrote: the monk thing was a more a joke and not meant to be taken seriously. However Ala mhigo was enough of a threat to believe that one city state would fall and eventually push to others. Given how much arm twisting it took for them to band together once more after the calamity and before hand, ala mhigo must have been quite a force.Â
Would you care to pass me the text source about Ishgard being overspecialized? Would love to see it and bolster my lore knowledge
It's part of the 2.4 storyline.
Being 2.4 is in recent memory, all I saw was their talk of just being unwilling to fight anything else period, not that they are ill equipped to handle any other threat..unless you are talking about the lime about them being ill equipped to handle Shiva, in which case, well, every city is, you need either waves of lemmings or someone with echo to fight a primal.Â
Something which all city states so far have gone "Well, hope a hero comes a long before we result in the former tactic"
also "OMG A SOUNSYY POST"
I'm not sure which of the three NPC's specifically mentions it tbh, I'll have to go back over a bit myself but the line was, paraphrased: "Our knights are trained to fight Dravanians, we're having unexpected difficulty fighting men coupled by the tactics of these heretics."