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Mia Moui · **09-20-2015, 12:09 AM**

(09-19-2015, 07:50 PM)Knight Kat Wrote:
(09-19-2015, 02:02 PM)ceramic_shrooms Wrote: As a female Keeper, are all required to hunt?
Also, are there any positions within a family one can occupy that do not revolve around using physical strength to fight, ex. if one is a thaumaturge/arcanist/conjurer, would they use spells instead to hunt or would the mage types prefer leave the hunting to other members?

In the Archery Questline, it is shown that Keepers have great pride in their archery, but not all Keeper NPCs are shown to be archers. It's the same for hunting. Actually, in the Moogle Mail Questline you are doing, you will get to the quest called "The Past is a Story We Never Tell". In that quest, you will talk to one of the most traditional Keeper NPCs in the game. She is not a hunter; she appears to be a merchant, and her sister confirms the two were not raised to be hunters.

My thoughts:
It seems Keeper tradition is not limited to a hunter-gatherer lifestyle. It makes sense. In any kind of society, there are different roles that need to be filled. Also, there are certainly Keeper mages, and likely several roles for them that do not include hunting.

I feel the same way. Â It stands to reason that there would be any number of roles one could play. Â Jacks of all trades may not be particularly good at any one of them. Â I think specialization is natural. Â I think some would cook, craft, hunt, fish, sell/barter/trade, astronomy, astrology, counseling, advocacy, healing, styling, mechanic, carpentry, law enforcement, and on and on. Â Not all in the same family or clan but there might be one of these or more in every group.

I think a lot of people get stuck in the more stereotypical ideas of what people were like in a medieval-style time period. Â The notion is that only primitive or simple types have families that congregate together in close-knit communities or clans. Â Or that they can only do so in particular ways, hunter-gatherer for instance.

I've been toying with the idea that Mia's family made moonshine for those who wanted it. Â I'm thinking of a less violent, happier grim of Sons of Anarchy. Â This could involve some interesting brushes with the Coeurlclaw and the Syndicate. Â It's something I haven't read a lot about on the forums but it stands to reason that there could be more than one outlaw clan of Keepers.

C'kayah Polaali · **09-20-2015, 02:38 PM**

(09-18-2015, 07:08 PM)myahele Wrote: Traditionally, Keepers are hunters. Its what they do in order to survive, but it's also a rite of passage. It's a conflict because for many centuries the Gridanians have been following the rules of the Elementals: don't take more than you need from the forest. The thing is, Seekers are doing just that with their hunting and that's bad news for the Gridanians because once an Elemental is fed up EVERYONE in the forest will be killed. The Elementals are weak now, but they were very much a threat prior to the Calamity. In other words, the Shroud belongs to the Elementals.

I agree that the Shroud belongs to the Elementals, and everyone who lives in it (including Gridanians) do so at the Elementals' pleasure. I haven't seen anything saying that Keepers (assuming that's what you meant) are overhunting the Shroud. Instead, I've been assuming that the schism between the Shroud-living Keeper families and the Gridanians is entirely political.

The thing to remember about the Shroud is pre-Calamity Greenwrath would take out anyone who displeased the Elementals, and made the Shroud a very dangerous place for anyone who wasn't in the Elementals' good graces to live there. Yet Keepers (and Duskwights) have lived in the Shroud for a very long time. Clearly they've come to terms with the Elementals.

You could make the argument that things are different now, and Keepers are overhunting because they can. However, you also have to recognize that it's only 5 years after the Calamity, and the Shroud was hit particularly hard. The Keeper population is probably reduced enough that there's no real way for them to overhunt the place, even if they wanted to.

Anyways, just my 2 cents here! Big Grin

LiadansWhisper · **09-20-2015, 09:51 PM**

(09-20-2015, 02:38 PM)Setoh Aliapoh Wrote:
(09-18-2015, 07:08 PM)myahele Wrote: Traditionally, Keepers are hunters. Its what they do in order to survive, but it's also a rite of passage. It's a conflict because for many centuries the Gridanians have been following the rules of the Elementals: don't take more than you need from the forest. The thing is, Seekers are doing just that with their hunting and that's bad news for the Gridanians because once an Elemental is fed up EVERYONE in the forest will be killed. The Elementals are weak now, but they were very much a threat prior to the Calamity. In other words, the Shroud belongs to the Elementals.

I agree that the Shroud belongs to the Elementals, and everyone who lives in it (including Gridanians) do so at the Elementals' pleasure. I haven't seen anything saying that Keepers (assuming that's what you meant) are overhunting the Shroud. Instead, I've been assuming that the schism between the Shroud-living Keeper families and the Gridanians is entirely political.

The thing to remember about the Shroud is pre-Calamity Greenwrath would take out anyone who displeased the Elementals, and made the Shroud a very dangerous place for anyone who wasn't in the Elementals' good graces to live there. Yet Keepers (and Duskwights) have lived in the Shroud for a very long time. Clearly they've come to terms with the Elementals.

You could make the argument that things are different now, and Keepers are overhunting because they can. However, you also have to recognize that it's only 5 years after the Calamity, and the Shroud was hit particularly hard. The Keeper population is probably reduced enough that there's no real way for them to overhunt the place, even if they wanted to.

Anyways, just my 2 cents here!

Apparently there are bands of keepers that are flat out murdering Wailers. Â Which is probably a large reason as to why there are issues with Keepers in general in the Shroud.

C'kayah Polaali · **09-21-2015, 06:41 AM**

(09-20-2015, 09:51 PM)LiadansWhisper Wrote: Apparently there are bands of keepers that are flat out murdering Wailers. Â Which is probably a large reason as to why there are issues with Keepers in general in the Shroud.

Oh, yeah, absolutely! And Wailers are going after bands of Keepers. It's like the Hatfields and the McCoys. Who knows who started it? They're just doing what they've done for a while.

LiadansWhisper · **09-21-2015, 08:44 AM**

(09-21-2015, 06:41 AM)Setoh Aliapoh Wrote:
(09-20-2015, 09:51 PM)LiadansWhisper Wrote: Apparently there are bands of keepers that are flat out murdering Wailers. Â Which is probably a large reason as to why there are issues with Keepers in general in the Shroud.

Oh, yeah, absolutely! And Wailers are going after bands of Keepers. It's like the Hatfields and the McCoys. Who knows who started it? They're just doing what they've done for a while.

Well, no. This was discussed at length in another thread, but I'm on my phone. Suffice it to say, the Wailers are doing their jobs. Nothing they're doing is just cuz "this is what we've done for a while." The poaching Keepers ARE a threat to everyone around them.

Oli! · **09-21-2015, 09:47 AM**

The basic explanation for why the Wailers are trying to stop poachers is because when you poach, kill animals disrespectfully, or excessively, the Elementals notice, and unleash the Greenwrath to indicate that they're sick of your shit.

So to stop poachers from Ruining It for Everyone, the Wailers go after them before they can kill animals non-stop.

Manari · **09-21-2015, 09:48 AM**

The way I've come to interpret the Keeper poacher issue is that there are a few groups (the most well known and present in-game being the Couerlclaw poachers) that are openly poaching for reasons that go against pure survival and harmony with the Twelveswood and outright oppose Gridania. These groups conflict directly with Gridiana's Wood Wailers and therefore have gained a reputation. I imagine this has fueled the natural xenophobic and racist Gridanian view to put a sterotype that since all Keepers of the Moon seem live out in the woods and hunt, they are all probably poachers.

That's how I've RPed the kind of experience that Manari has had when dealing with people in and around Gridania.

However, as already stated, there is no way that these Keeper families that have been living in the Twelvewoods for so many years could have possibly survived without learning to live in harmony with the elementals. The Twelveswood, before the Calamity wounded it so badly, used to be a place you didn't screw with.

myahele · **09-21-2015, 03:38 PM**

While we're on the subject of Poaching and Greenwrath, we also have to keep in mind that the Seedseers and Padjals all do their best to pacify/calm down angry elementals. In fact, the Senna siblings all have a yearly (?) ritually to pacify The Great One and if left unchecked, huge portions of the Shroud will succumb to it's wrath.

So while everyone over-hunts and logs Gridanian have to pretty much clean up after their mess. Or else.

C'kayah Polaali · **09-21-2015, 03:43 PM**

(09-21-2015, 08:44 AM)LiadansWhisper Wrote:
(09-21-2015, 06:41 AM)Setoh Aliapoh Wrote:
(09-20-2015, 09:51 PM)LiadansWhisper Wrote: Apparently there are bands of keepers that are flat out murdering Wailers. Â Which is probably a large reason as to why there are issues with Keepers in general in the Shroud.

Oh, yeah, absolutely! And Wailers are going after bands of Keepers. It's like the Hatfields and the McCoys. Who knows who started it? They're just doing what they've done for a while.

Well, no. This was discussed at length in another thread, but I'm on my phone. Suffice it to say, the Wailers are doing their jobs. Nothing they're doing is just cuz "this is what we've done for a while." The poaching Keepers ARE a threat to everyone around them.

I did a poor job of making my point. Yes, the Wailers in general are attacking the bands of poachers - Coeurlclaws and the like - but it's that dynamic (plus the attacks on Wailers by the poachers) that are coloring the perception of all Keepers in the Shroud. I was basically agreeing with you. Big Grin

C'kayah Polaali · **09-21-2015, 03:59 PM**

(09-21-2015, 03:38 PM)myahele Wrote: While we're on the subject of Poaching and Greenwrath, we also have to keep in mind that the Seedseers and Padjals all do their best to pacify/calm down angry elementals. In fact, the Senna siblings all have a yearly (?) ritually to pacify The Great One and if left unchecked, huge portions of the Shroud will succumb to it's wrath.

So while everyone over-hunts and logs Gridanian have to pretty much clean up after their mess. Or else.

That's how the Padjals tell it, but I'm not exactly sure if it jibes with the timeline.

Gridania was founded about 500 years ago, but Miqo'te entered Eorzea between 3-4000 years ago. Moonkeepers are predominantly found in the Shroud, so you'd have to argue that either Keepers appeared as distinct entities in the Twelveswood after the founding of Gridania, or that most of the Keepers migrated en masse from wherever they were living once Gridania pacified the Elementals. While either of those ideas are possible (especially if there's some sort of magical event that sparked the origin of Keepers as a distinct people), they don't seem especially probable.

Another possibility is the Keepers figured out a way to live in the Twelveswood prior to the creation of Gridania. This would cast the issues between Gridania and the Keepers in a different light. Instead of the Keepers being largely refugees who emigrated to the Shroud after the Pajdal made it safe, they would have been (relatively) indigenous inhabitants of the Twelveswood coming into conflict with the newcomer Gridanians.

Which may or may not be the case, but it's certainly an interesting idea!

LiadansWhisper · **09-21-2015, 04:13 PM**

(09-21-2015, 03:43 PM)Setoh Aliapoh Wrote: I did a poor job of making my point. Yes, the Wailers in general are attacking the bands of poachers - Coeurlclaws and the like - but it's that dynamic (plus the attacks on Wailers by the poachers) that are coloring the perception of all Keepers in the Shroud. I was basically agreeing with you.

Ah I didn't catch that. Â Thanks for the clarification.

(09-21-2015, 03:59 PM)Setoh Aliapoh Wrote: That's how the Padjals tell it, but I'm not exactly sure if it jibes with the timeline.

Gridania was founded about 500 years ago, but Miqo'te entered Eorzea between 3-4000 years ago. Moonkeepers are predominantly found in the Shroud, so you'd have to argue that either Keepers appeared as distinct entities in the Twelveswood after the founding of Gridania, or that most of the Keepers migrated en masse from wherever they were living once Gridania pacified the Elementals. While either of those ideas are possible (especially if there's some sort of magical event that sparked the origin of Keepers as a distinct people), they don't seem especially probable.

Another possibility is the Keepers figured out a way to live in the Twelveswood prior to the creation of Gridania. This would cast the issues between Gridania and the Keepers in a different light. Instead of the Keepers being largely refugees who emigrated to the Shroud after the Pajdal made it safe, they would have been (relatively) indigenous inhabitants of the Twelveswood coming into conflict with the newcomer Gridanians.

Which may or may not be the case, but it's certainly an interesting idea!

That doesn't jive with the Lore. Â If anyone was able to figure a way to live openly in the Shroud prior to the Pact of Gelmorra, do honestly think anyone would have agreed to the Pact of Gelmorra? Â I mean, realistically?

The whole reason the Pact of Gelmorra happened at all was because no one could figure a way to live in the Shroud without the elementals eating them. Â That's the entire point of the pact.

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