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Norna · **08-29-2014, 11:48 AM**

(08-29-2014, 11:19 AM)allgivenover Wrote: The Shroud post Calamity? I'm not so sure it could do that without nearly destroying itself and leaving it vulnerable to the Garleans. What lies beneath the Evershade could level the entire forest in its rage - but that would not be a good thing for the Wood.

I'm not sure the Elementals would ever come to such a decision, although they think in such an alien way compared to mortals, they understand that they also /need/ Gridania. They need the mortals to solve the mortal problems that will inevitably come to their door regardless of Gridania's presence.

Three elementals come to the conjurers' aid during the conjurer questline (at least that's what I think the other conjurers said when I was running out of the AoE). Here's a few screenshots:

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So they definitely help the Gridanians from time to time.

Kellach Woods · **08-29-2014, 09:11 PM**

The more I read this thread, I think it's less about who wins but rather who loses. All three nations are capable of winning. It all depends on how much dumbassery their opponents have.

Although I really think that Ul'dah rejecting the refugees rather than enroll them in a foreign legion to use as cannon fodder is the worst idea they could have.

LiadansWhisper · **08-30-2014, 02:08 AM**

(08-29-2014, 09:11 PM)Kellach Woods Wrote: The more I read this thread, I think it's less about who wins but rather who loses. All three nations are capable of winning. It all depends on how much dumbassery their opponents have.

Although I really think that Ul'dah rejecting the refugees rather than enroll them in a foreign legion to use as cannon fodder is the worst idea they could have.

There's a lot of stuff about how Ul'dah is using those refugees (or, more accurately, not using them) in the MSQ that doesn't make a lot of sense.

Marisa · **08-30-2014, 04:46 AM**

(08-29-2014, 09:11 PM)Kellach Woods Wrote: The more I read this thread, I think it's less about who wins but rather who loses. All three nations are capable of winning. It all depends on how much dumbassery their opponents have.

Although I really think that Ul'dah rejecting the refugees rather than enroll them in a foreign legion to use as cannon fodder is the worst idea they could have.

Limsa, on the other hand, does have it's own Foreign Legion, and would gladly accept them.

Leanne · **08-30-2014, 05:22 AM**

One thing I like to think it that would be also a + for Gridania in case of a war, would be the group of bandits that infest the region of South Shroud. According to the MSQ at the very least, they seem to be very protective of the territory they live, perhaps because of Buscarron, or maybe since it's a thing deep rooted in those who are born in the forest. As such, in case of war, I don't feel like it's outlandish to think the bandits, while not actually joining the military, would still be an asset for the war effort, with their more 'dishonest' methods of combat, subterfuge, sabotage, and etc.

Clover · **08-30-2014, 08:34 AM**

The three nations are at war, who wins?

Not the Adders. Call it personal experience (=A=;

In all seriousness, from a canon point of view... not the Adders *nods*.

Enteris · **08-30-2014, 09:39 AM**

As has been stated, more or less, throughout this thread already, I believe Limsa would come out on top.

Gridania has their hands full making sure the forest around them doesn't swallow them whole. They'll be busy using their conjury force to appease the elementals as opposed to healing their lancers and archers.

Ul'dah is a literal mess of internal conflict. The misuse of refugees and even "slightly friendly" beastmen (Qiqirn), plus the power struggle within the walls themselves, would be their downfall.

Limsa, for a city built around pirates, is actually fairly well put together. They have a few pirate squabbles here and there, but if the admiral were to give free reign to looting and plundering as someone else mentioned in this thread... then I'm sure they'd happily fall in line and join in with the blockade/raids on any ports.

So, while Limsa fends off any attempt from Ul'dah (and even Gridania?) to attack by sea with ease, then most likely puts on a blockade to win by attrition... Gridania will likely be too busy making sure the trees don't come to life and trample every living thing in the Shroud. Were Limsa dumb enough to attempt to actually go into the Shroud.... then yeah, they'd likely lose that battle.

LiadansWhisper · **08-30-2014, 05:32 PM**

(08-30-2014, 09:39 AM)Enteris Wrote: As has been stated, more or less, throughout this thread already, I believe Limsa would come out on top.

Gridania has their hands full making sure the forest around them doesn't swallow them whole. They'll be busy using their conjury force to appease the elementals as opposed to healing their lancers and archers.

I greatly disagree with this. Â Gridania has a lot of Conjurers, and honestly, the best of the best don't leave the Shroud. Â They stay with the Fane and serve the Forest, but there is absolutely no reason to believe they would be unable to balance both the needs of the Elementals and healing their own. The bigger issue is that Gridania is defensive by nature, not offensive. They are primarily pacifists and wouldn't seek conflict in the first place if they could at all avoid it.

Enteris · **08-30-2014, 06:04 PM**

(08-30-2014, 05:32 PM)LiadansWhisper Wrote:
(08-30-2014, 09:39 AM)Enteris Wrote: As has been stated, more or less, throughout this thread already, I believe Limsa would come out on top.

Gridania has their hands full making sure the forest around them doesn't swallow them whole. They'll be busy using their conjury force to appease the elementals as opposed to healing their lancers and archers.

I greatly disagree with this. Â Gridania has a lot of Conjurers, and honestly, the best of the best don't leave the Shroud. Â They stay with the Fane and serve the Forest, but there is absolutely no reason to believe they would be unable to balance both the needs of the Elementals and healing their own. Â The bigger issue is that Gridania is defensive by nature, not offensive. Â They are primarily pacifists and wouldn't seek conflict in the first place if they could at all avoid it.

My apologies for not being clear. I was working under the assumption that because they are very defensive in nature, should a war engulf Gridania, it would be on their home turf, so to speak. As such, all of the battles would likely take place somewhere in the Shroud. War is messy, there'd likely be a good amount of collateral damage to the nature itself.

As such, it's possible that the longer the war goes on, the more angry the elementals will become... maybe so much so that they would actually consider waking the great one. If this is the case, then it makes sense to me that more and more conjurers would have to be pulled away to commune with the elementals and calm them down.

I didn't mean to say or imply that they would have zero conjurers on the front lines as healers, but I would still argue that should the above situation be the case... they would certainly be stretched thin.Â

Granted, I don't even pretend to know the ballpark number or percentage/population that Gridania has of conjurers. So perhaps they would have plenty to spare to cover all elemental threats, actual battlefield healing, and even have a fair number back home drinking tea and waiting for their deployment.

Kellach Woods · **08-30-2014, 06:15 PM**

(08-30-2014, 09:39 AM)Enteris Wrote: Limsa, for a city built around pirates, is actually fairly well put together. They have a few pirate squabbles here and there, but if the admiral were to give free reign to looting and plundering as someone else mentioned in this thread... then I'm sure they'd happily fall in line and join in with the blockade/raids on any ports.

Limsa's biggest problem is that they have to contend with TWO primals. Not just one.

Sure, the same can be said of Gridania somewhat, but while Ramuh is powerful, he's not the kind to start a war against people. He'd rather just have the Sylphs protect their territory and that's it. Hell, Ramuh could be used as an asset by feeding false intelligence to their opponents and have them go through the East Shroud and whoops here's a bunch of tempered Sylphs and Ramuh this was a horrible idea.

Whereas for Limsa it's a war against Leviathan and Titan. Neither of them can be reasoned with. Titan wants justice for his people (because let's not forget Limsa's on stolen soil) and Leviathan's just a dick.

I still think Limsa has the best chance mostly due to the Arcanists' guild and the likely spreading of the Scholars' teachings (who, IIRC, were essentially war strategists anyway) but if they can't contain the Primals they could easily still lose.

LiadansWhisper · **08-30-2014, 11:24 PM**

(08-30-2014, 06:04 PM)Enteris Wrote: My apologies for not being clear. I was working under the assumption that because they are very defensive in nature, should a war engulf Gridania, it would be on their home turf, so to speak. As such, all of the battles would likely take place somewhere in the Shroud. War is messy, there'd likely be a good amount of collateral damage to the nature itself.

When I say "defensive," I mean that they are way more likely to simply turtle and not attempt counter attacks. Â They'll hold their position, and they're in a really good place to do so. Â They basically don't need anything they import, whereas the other city states (especially Ul'dah) import much, if not all, of their food, minerals, and other natural resources.

Quote:As such, it's possible that the longer the war goes on, the more angry the elementals will become... maybe so much so that they would actually consider waking the great one. If this is the case, then it makes sense to me that more and more conjurers would have to be pulled away to commune with the elementals and calm them down.

At that point, I don't think it would matter. Â Calming the Elementals seems like a time-based thing, not a numbers-based thing. Â You either calm them down, or you lose control. Â But, on the other hand, there's a really good chance that they would simply allow the Elementals free reign in certain parts of the forest and just move their own people out. Â Come into my parlor said the spider to the fly...

Quote:I didn't mean to say or imply that they would have zero conjurers on the front lines as healers, but I would still argue that should the above situation be the case... they would certainly be stretched thin.Â

Granted, I don't even pretend to know the ballpark number or percentage/population that Gridania has of conjurers. So perhaps they would have plenty to spare to cover all elemental threats, actual battlefield healing, and even have a fair number back home drinking tea and waiting for their deployment.

It appears, from quests, NPCs, etc, that there's a relatively high number of Conjurers to regular folk in the Shroud. Â But rank-and-file Conjurers wouldn't be involved in calming the Elementals anyway, at least not at first. Â They'd send the Hearers to deal with the Elementals before they sent anyone else.

Kage · **09-02-2014, 09:25 AM**

(08-30-2014, 04:46 AM)Ryoko Wrote:
(08-29-2014, 09:11 PM)Kellach Woods Wrote: The more I read this thread, I think it's less about who wins but rather who loses. All three nations are capable of winning. It all depends on how much dumbassery their opponents have.

Although I really think that Ul'dah rejecting the refugees rather than enroll them in a foreign legion to use as cannon fodder is the worst idea they could have.
Limsa, on the other hand, does have it's own Foreign Legion, and would gladly accept them.

The Immortal Flames actually already does have a place for the Ala Mhigan refugees under the Ala Mhigan Brigade in the Foreign Bridages. If not Ala Mhigan, the general encompassing Foreign Brigades is also available.

It could be as simple as "what do the IF provide for those enlisted" or that simply people don't want to enlist.

Berrod Armstrong · **09-02-2014, 09:46 AM**

Reading this thread has made me realize how balanced the three major city states have been written in terms of strengths and weaknesses. Good job, SE! Balancing the strengths and weaknesses of more than two entities is usually a damn hassle in storytelling.

Velendris · **09-09-2014, 04:31 PM**

Each nation has something going for it, it all depends in my opinion on the defensive properties of each nation.

Limsa Lominsa probably has the best chance overall for several reasons. Obviously they have the greatest navy out of the three, and would easily blockade and eventually starve out their adversaries.Â In addition, they seem to embrace gunpowder more which would make a huge difference in a siege.

Gridania can win a defensive guerrilla war by utilizing the Shroud to maximum effect, however on the offensive I believe they are the weakest, with their population being on the lower end and the tools available to them.

Ul'dah is a wild card, they have the strength and numbers, however their own city is woefully unprepared to deal with an extended siege, especially when it comes to water. I assume Ul'dah would have to strike first considering their defenses would cruel quickly from within.

Aduu Avagnar · **09-10-2014, 07:40 PM**

to assume that Ul'dah's only water source is outside of the city is foolish. A city would not be able to grow to the size of Ul'dah without an internal water source of some description. The most likely would be an artesian well of some description, drawing its water from an underwater source. This is especially true in a desert.

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