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allgivenover · **01-16-2014, 12:06 PM**

(01-16-2014, 11:41 AM)Eva Wrote: Gladly. Â I was hesitant to proffer such because it's probably more meaningful to come up with this sort of thing yourself and I didn't want to step on your toes in that regard.

Considering it was the point of the entire topic, no it won't be stepping on my toes, but thank you.

Sounsyy · **01-16-2014, 12:55 PM**

(01-16-2014, 05:08 AM)ansemaru Wrote: I think it's not necessarily a good idea to assume that they would be everywhere, or that they're all-powerful.

In 1.0, at least, they appeared in the game and in the lore outside of the Shroud. Several quests/levequests had Elementals appearing as far away as La Noscea. So there isn't any assuming. Elementals were, literally, everywhere. But you are correct that none of them displayed the power that those within the Wood display.Â

(01-16-2014, 06:31 AM)ansemaru Wrote: I'm struggling to think what would make the Shroud so ~special~ and ~important to protect~ as opposed to literally any other region in Eorzea or Hydaelyn.

Also, maybe this is just the impression I'm getting, but are the elementals even remotely a force of good in the world? They're certainlyÂ something, but they only appear to have their own best interest at heart, and I'm kind of baffled that people treat them as something that needs to be appeased and obeyed rather than an overt threat like Primals.

Maybe we're all over thinking it when the answer could be right in front of us? The "Twelveswood." "Tinolqa" - Blessed Forest. Could it possibly be that this Wood has prevailed against the ages and was actually around or even the Home of the Twelve back before the Age of Man?Â

I know part of the 6th Umbral Era included the Woods rising and growing and becoming wild to bar entrance and protect what was within. Protect the original Wood maybe? The Elementals have existed since time immeasurable according to them. Why go to all of the trouble to protect one place in Hydaelyn over others if not for a very specific reason? Secrets of Succor? Probably not. The Elementals didn't gift Man succor until 5th Astral Era. This is their Wood they say, they have been there since time immeasurable. We call it the "Twelveswood." Where did we get that name from? Because in Gelmorrans' minds, you would think the Wood belonged to the Elementals right? So why wouldn't it be called the Elementalswood? Other than that name sounds ridiculous. We call it the Twelveswood. And when we hurt it, we brought on an Umbral Era...

I dunno, that's my thought on it.

And I'd say that yes, the Elementals are a force of Good. But I think they have their own best interests in mind, and by extention, Hydaelyn's best interest in mind. They are just aether remember. Just think if the physical incarnation of Nature came to life in real life Earth. Don't you think they'd be more than a little wrathful over what we've done to the planet over the last thousand years?Â

I think the better question is, do you consider the Children of Man a force of Good? Because I'd say no. There's a lot more bad than good.

LiadansWhisper · **01-16-2014, 02:55 PM**

(01-16-2014, 06:48 AM)ansemaru Wrote: If everyone is content to judge the Primals and beast tribes from a human perspective, I see no problem in judging the elementals from a human perspective. And from a human perspective, they've been an active threat to pretty much all sentient life in that region of Eorzea for centuries. Just because they can be held back by constant appeasement doesn't mean they should be- their behavior seems less like that of a benevolent protector and more on par with a monster demanding its needs be put above those of the individuals it lives near. If the Greenwrath weren't such of a threat, would anybody actually put in the effort to meet the demands and standards of the elementals?

Probably not, but you have to remember that the Shroud is theirs - not ours. Â We're living in the Shroud on their good graces. Â They're allowing people to live in their home. Â So we're tenets, as it were, and have guidelines we're supposed to follow.

The problem with judging the Elementals by human standards is that they're not human, and never will be. Â It'd be like judging a mountain lion by human standards. Â It doesn't work.

LiadansWhisper · **01-16-2014, 02:58 PM**

(01-16-2014, 09:31 AM)FreelanceWizard Wrote: From an OOC standpoint, Gridanians likely view the elementals as protectors and benefactors, even now. Pre-Calamity, they did a pretty good job of protecting the city from outside threats, and all they asked for in return was living in harmony with the forest -- which is something Gridanians probably wanted to do anyway due to the culture. Post-Calamity, the elementals don't seem to be so capable of keeping up their end of the bargain (poachers everywhere in the South Shroud, a Castrum in the East Shroud, Ala Mhigan refugees showing up, Ramuh being summoned, Ixal pouring into the North Shroud, etc.), but there's quite a history there that's unlikely to be wiped out in 5 years. It makes sense to me that, even if the wrath of the forest is substantially reduced except in particular circumstances, Gridanians would still maintain their beliefs about it and still take special care to avoid provoking it.

It's more than that, though. Â It's that the Shroud belongs to the Elementals. Â The Gridanians are only there with permission. Â It'd be akin to you suddenly tearing up your rental flat because the landlord wasn't able to immediately fix a leaky faucet.

Quote:EDIT: I'm being bad and straying off topic. To the OP's question, I think Sounsyy has covered most of the viable approaches. I personally think the most plausible is "taught by another White Mage for some reason;" I would caution against going with playing a Padjal or an elemental, because for many RPers, that's a bridge too far as you're asking them to accept playing something that can't be played in game. Another possible option is "uncovered the keys to White Magic yourself," though I believe that strays away from lore since the elementals, according to those who've done more of the WHM quest line than I, directly control access to the underlying power source.

Interesting option that popped into my head - what if someone were from another continent and unlocked the secrets of White Magic? Â What if when they came to Eorzea, they found that magic restricted, or that it seemed different, or something like that? Â Just random musings.

Hiro · **01-16-2014, 03:26 PM**

There's a good number of ways to go about alternatives. Liadans has brought up one very interesting method for sure. Self study, self revelation, "new age prodigy", retired teacher, anything really works. Even if its a guarded secret, a secret is no longer a secret if someone knows about it.

How you go about it will always be subject to criticism, negative, positive, it really doesn't matter, the most important thing is that it's your character, your back story, and you can do what you want, how you want, and why you want so long as you're not actively seeking to ruin someone else's fun. Your own storyline in a FANTASY game can only really affect those who choose to be affected by it, positively or negatively. Edward Cullen could have sprouted from Jesus Christs Forehead and farted out your existence into Eorzea if you want, I may choose to interpret this as your character being absolutely ridiculous in my opinion, but I'm not about to tell you that you're doing Roleplay incorrectly.

LiadansWhisper · **01-16-2014, 03:38 PM**

(01-16-2014, 03:26 PM)Hiro Wrote: There's a good number of ways to go about alternatives. Liadans has brought up one very interesting method for sure. Self study, self revelation, "new age prodigy", retired teacher, anything really works. Even if its a guarded secret, a secret is no longer a secret if someone knows about it.

How you go about it will always be subject to criticism, negative, positive, it really doesn't matter, the most important thing is that it's your character, your back story, and you can do what you want, how you want, and why you want so long as you're not actively seeking to ruin someone else's fun. Your own storyline in a FANTASY game can only really affect those who choose to be affected by it, positively or negatively. Edward Cullen could have sprouted from Jesus Christs Forehead and farted out your existence into Eorzea if you want, I may choose to interpret this as your character being absolutely ridiculous in my opinion, but I'm not about to tell you that you're doing Roleplay incorrectly.

Pretty much this.

Also, restrictions can add a really interesting element to roleplay, as well. Â How you work around those restrictions can add a lot of flavor to a character, and make them much more interesting than if the super special ability had been available to all without any work.

Ildur · **01-16-2014, 04:40 PM**

(01-16-2014, 02:55 PM)LiadansWhisper Wrote: The problem with judging the Elementals by human standards is that they're not human, and never will be. Â It'd be like judging a mountain lion by human standards. Â It doesn't work.

It is true that they own the Shroud and that Gridanians (or anyone else living in it) is a tenant. For that, it is perfectly reasonable for them to have rules and to frown upon people who break their stuff. What is not reasonable, however, is that their 'frown upon' is trying to murder people. This would be akin to the mountain lion trying to eat your neighbours for no reason at all or because it felt threatened by them. Your most likely course of action as a person would be to save the neighbour, not to stand idly and say "Well, he must have done something!" and let the lion eat him.

What we have to decide is if the Elementals are below humans, like the lion (in the sense that they have no rationality) or if they are above them, like gods. And then we have to wonder if they are good gods, because they certainly seem very fond on executing people without giving reasons more than "I'm threatened by him".

LiadansWhisper · **01-16-2014, 04:54 PM**

(01-16-2014, 04:40 PM)Ildur Wrote:
(01-16-2014, 02:55 PM)LiadansWhisper Wrote: The problem with judging the Elementals by human standards is that they're not human, and never will be. Â It'd be like judging a mountain lion by human standards. Â It doesn't work.

It is true that they own the Shroud and that Gridanians (or anyone else living in it) is a tenant. For that, it is perfectly reasonable for them to have rules and to frown upon people who break their stuff. What is not reasonable, however, is that their 'frown upon' is trying to murder people. This would be akin to the mountain lion trying to eat your neighbours for no reason at all or because it felt threatened by them. Your most likely course of action as a person would be to save the neighbour, not to stand idly and say "Well, he must have done something!" and let the lion eat him.

It'd be more akin to a mountain lion eating a person who it was leaving alone, but then the person started mucking around with its den area and was looking at its cubs. Â The mountain lion warned it a few times, but the person persisted.

Sure, I'd try to save them. Â But I'd also feel they had it coming for being a dipshit.

Quote:What we have to decide is if the Elementals are below humans, like the lion (in the sense that they have no rationality) or if they are above them, like gods. And then we have to wonder if they are good gods, because they certainly seem very fond on executing people without giving reasons more than "I'm threatened by him".

That's a false dichotomy. Â The example of a mountain lion was merely to illustrate that the Elementals don't have the same morals and values that we do, and that they may perceive things differently from the way we, as humans, view things.

Nature isn't human. Â Nature doesn't have our morals and values. Â Nature doesn't perceive us in the same way that we perceive ourselves. Â It doesn't love us the way that we love one another. Â It doesn't care about us the way we would care about our own. Â Nature is inhuman.

Now, inhuman doesn't necessarily equate to evil, but what it does mean is that what we perceive as cruel or unfair or unjust is not going to be perceived in the same manner.

It has nothing to do with whether the Elementals are "above or below" us. Â It has everything to do with the clash of human morals and values with the inhuman morals and values of what are essentially immortal, incorporeal beings whose first duty is to their own protection and the protection of the Twelveswood, not our well-being.

ansemaru · **01-16-2014, 06:29 PM**

It's pretty clear that "nature is inhuman", but the standards of morality as applied to "nature" in the universe of FFXIV are remarkably inconsistent.

Because last time I checked, incredibly powerful and capricious entities made of aether weren't the friends of the city-states.

But I guess because these ones are ~part of a tradition~ with Gridania and not associated with those mean nasty totally inhuman beast tribes, they should be revered and obeyed!

I've done some digging. It seems an awful lot like the reason why elementals could manifest as readily in the Shroud as opposed to anywhere else had to do with the amount of aether concentrated in the region, not specifically because it is a holy land and they are the holy guardians of it. And, what do you know, after the aether of the world got disturbed, they suddenly started being a lot less powerful in said region. Who would have thought? It could very well be that a lot of the religious and magical significance placed upon the Shroud has absolutely nothing to do with it being specifically relevant to the gods, and more to do with aetheric activity giving people who didn't know any better the impression that it was relevant to the gods.

LiadansWhisper · **01-16-2014, 06:40 PM**

(01-16-2014, 06:29 PM)ansemaru Wrote: It's pretty clear that "nature is inhuman", but the standards of morality as applied to "nature" in the universe of FFXIV are remarkably inconsistent.

Because last time I checked, incredibly powerful and capricious entities made of aether weren't the friends of the city-states.

In this case, they aren't capricious. Â In fact, they're incredibly lawful, especially for Nature-aligned creatures. Â They operate under a strict set of rules and guidelines. Â Just because those rules and guidelines don't really match with the way we think they should doesn't mean they aren't present. Â The Elementals in the game appear to operate more along the lines of the Celestial Courts (I am really only familiar with the Chinese version of this) than "random, wild nature deities."

Quote:But I guess because these ones are ~part of a tradition~ with Gridania and not associated with those mean nasty totally inhuman beast tribes, they should be revered and obeyed!

It's because Gridania made a deal with them. Â They have a contract. Â Note: they have a contract with the Sylphs as well, and have held to their end. Â The only Sylphs violating that contract are the tempered ones. Â They had a contract with the Ixal, but at some point it was broken (we don't know who broke it, or how it happened), and at this point, the Ixal aren't willing to negotiate further.

Limsa Lominsa had a contract with the Kobolds. Â Limsa Lominsa broke their contract, and Titan was the result.

Ul'dah doesn't have a contract with the Amalja'a, but we don't know whether it's because they've never tried or if it's because the lizard guys just really don't want to make peace.

Quote:I've done some digging. It seems an awful lot like the reason why elementals could manifest as readily in the Shroud as opposed to anywhere else had to do with the amount of aether concentrated in the region, not specifically because it is a holy land and they are the holy guardians of it.

Given what we know about Aether, how is it that because it's "aether," the land therefore isn't "holy"? Â I mean, with such a concentration of aether, wouldn't that sort of make the land itself...holy?

No one has ever said the Elementals themselves are holy, of course.

Quote:And, what do you know, after the aether of the world got disturbed, they suddenly started being a lot less powerful in said region. Who would have thought?

They're beings made of aether. Â The attempt to bind Bahamut involved summoning the Twelve into the real world - an attempt that stripped huge amounts of aether from the world, and would have likely destroyed Hydaelyn herself had it succeeded. Â Of course when that much aether is removed from the world - and part of it was specifically stripped from the Twelveswood - aether-based beings are going to have issues.

Quote:It could very well be that a lot of the religious and magical significance placed upon the Shroud has absolutely nothing to do with it being specifically relevant to the gods, and more to do with aetheric activity giving people who didn't know any better the impression that it was relevant to the gods.

Except that the Twelve and aether are very much intertwined.

ansemaru · **01-16-2014, 06:44 PM**

"Gridania" making a deal with them specifically means the Padjal, Midlanders, and Wildwood Elezen making a deal with them. In their best interest. And upholding that deal has consistently excluded and screwed over everyone outside of that original union of "Twin Adders". I'm not sure how the elementals and upholding a pact with them are forces for good when we can see how that's impacted the Duskwights, Keepers, and Ala Mhigan refugees, to say nothing of ordinary adventurers from outside the Twelveswood.

FreelanceWizard · **01-16-2014, 06:59 PM**

As much as I find this speculative discussion on elementals interesting and enlightening, would you all mind bouncing it to a new thread so this one stays on topic? I don't want either topic (ways to play a White Mage and the morality of Elementals and related issues) to get lost. Smile

I know I contributed to the tangent. Blush

ansemaru · **01-16-2014, 07:17 PM**

Dragged the subject of elementals over here so the discussion of playing white mages can continue unimpeded!

allgivenover · **01-22-2014, 11:10 PM**

Lots of good insight and ideas here. Thank you all for the input.

Not that it's particularly important to anyone, but I've decided that if I have Rakka'li go down this route that it will be through an elemental ala the 1.0 plot, as I'm much more comfortable with inventing a character of little import to others than I am of asserting there is even some tenuous connection between Rakka'li and the Padjal through some unnamed pupil.

Spiritual Machine · **01-23-2014, 03:16 AM**

What's so important about taking the route of being a White Mage specifically?

It seems to me that (in the most commonly used sense) "White Mage" is ultimately a title that denotes a unique station, and unique abilities obtained and wrought in a very particular fashion. So therefore the way that one becomes a White Mage is simply by following the very procedural process outlined in the lore.

Now, if someone wanted to be a White Mage in all but name, there are countless ways to do this. I've paid a good bit of attention to the lore of magic in FFXIV, and a lot of it seems like it can be boiled down to building upon constructive or destructive processes. White Magic is described as power over life itself, whereas Black Magic is described as unprecedented destructive potential. But we hear about powerful and notable Conjurers and Thaumaturges all the time in the game. And they're so powerful that it's often hard to imagine how that can be topped in a meaningful way.

I believe that a sufficiently powerful Conjurer could be nearly indistinguishable from a White Mage. So many elements of knowledge, wisdom, insight and ability could simply closely resemble those of a White Mage but be attained through unique, even conventional means. The fact that the defining feature of being a White Mage seems to be having unprecedented power and authority naturally makes it a less than friendly position in a roleplay setting.

By simply being a powerful Conjurer, you could be a "White Mage" in all but name. Then you could invent whatever story you wish to elaborate on why your character has become good at what they do, and you wouldn't have to conform to the rare and limiting factors that make one able to become a legendary (and controversial) White Mage.

I agree with Eva that the best solution is to simply take the middle way, be exceptional, and stop short of the title itself. What more does anyone really need? Is a provocative title really that important to a character's development? Can't one simply be personally exceptional without the intervention of impossible circumstances?

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