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Desu Nee · **05-05-2015, 04:48 PM**

(05-05-2015, 04:38 PM)Verad Wrote: I'm more interested in the following: It's one thing for people to make claims about certain characters, and to write them off as insane or delusional or whatever. I'm not one-hundred percent on-board with that particular choice but I recognize it's a valid one.

What do you, however, when the player proves it through some metaphysical means? Some dimensional traveller, to use Klin's example, leaps into another Final Fantasy setting in front of you and comes back with Shantotto. Somebody claiming to be a primal manifests as such in front of you. For the more hardline lore-hounds, a WHM casts Succor or Holy. In short, something that would have a tangible effect on the world and can't be denied by a simple claim of insanity.

It's possible to retcon the matter and say that the person only saidÂ they did these things, and it didn't actually happen, but that's very much not letting the character lead; it's making an OOC judgment call in the moment and declaring that a fact stated by another player isn't actually a fact. On the other hand, taking the claim on faith and reacting to it means having to grapple with denying it IC at a later date. How do you address this problem?

Then it highly varies on the quality of the rper, the delivery and the context. Frankly, I'm ambivalent, as in it IS interesting to see someone play the "taboos" of roleplaying actually pretty well and in a fulfilling manner, I'm all for taking the leap of faith and reacting very ICly about it, specially if it's in the middle of an arc, or if that's not the character whole gimmicky/point.

I suppose it's identifying the line between powerplay, and playing taboos responsively. Obviously, not everyone will follow, and I will never ever take serious someone that just does it in the Quicksand for an instant, and, bias I'm sorry, I don't really think one can just up and turn into a Primal without an absolute mess, up and including tempering everyone present that does not have echo, but yeah, depending on the circunstance I might as well go for it. If my character will take IC or not, again check above.

Klynzahr · **05-05-2015, 04:49 PM**

That is an interesting point Verad and one that I fortunately have yet to encounter in this game.

I have ran into similar things in other settings, and I believe my strategy there was to type a emote rather sarcastic emote, something along these lines.

Â Â Â /Klynzahr* 's mind descends into pure panic as her very perceptions of existence are called into question. Unable to processes these figments of her own insanity, she flees the scene in shock and terror.

*Name changed

I then turned around and ran, literally not stopping until mt was several zones away from the offender. After thinking it over for a few minutes, I brought my character to her IC guild headquarters, where several mates of mine were RPing. I popped her casually onto one of the beds, as though she had been snoozing all the time. Then emoted her jerking awake in a cold sweat and screaming about some nightmare.

I guess that you could say I boogied outa there and applied a minor coat of retcon.

Cool

Desu Nee · **05-05-2015, 04:51 PM**

Forgot to add, but obviously if you're powerplaying, I'll just have Quki run away, and push it away from her head as hard as she can.

Flickering Ember · **05-05-2015, 04:52 PM**

I don't. At least in regards to lore-iffy concepts.
Mostly because not much actually bothers me. I consider myself open to most concepts. I am even more open in a universe like Final Fantasy, where ridiculous and over the top concepts and happenings are a series staple.Â

FFXIV lore is so vague that pretty much any concept could be argued as being doable. Text from NPC can be interpreted as being told via 'unreliable narrators.' That's not to say that I disregard in game text or Sounssy's very wonderful and helpful lore posts, I certainly do my best to adhere to what NPCs give us for lore, but I don't take everything as word of god unless it is flat out stated by SE themselves. (and even word of god posts can be interpreted differently!) This can be TL;DRed as: I personally try to stay within the lore lines because that's generally what OTHER people prefer, but I don't care what people RP as, as long as I am having fun.

To me, worrying over whether or not someone is following the lore disrupts my ability to have fun. It stresses me out. So I just don't think about it. That, and I can't even remember anyone who has broken lore anyway.Â

RP style is much more important to me. Naturally, I pursue RP with those who have characters I like or just have a great roleplay style. While I roleplay more superficially with RP styles that don't mesh well with mine. But even if I RP with someone superficially, I try to leave the door open in case we end up eventually clicking. Unless, we just really don't get along. Can't please everyone!

Warren Castille · **05-05-2015, 05:01 PM**

It's something I believe I've made mention of here before but feel like I could probably get away with referencing again: I believe that all roleplays have a certain budget of "It's okay when I do it."

What I mean by that is... Generally speaking, hanging out with Named Characters and Important Persons is something people stray away from. Sometimes, though...? I've got this really cool hook for a story, so it's okay that just this once I ran into and talked to Raubahn about it, right?

Or, we were doing this really cool arc centered in the Shroud and I mean, I know the Echo is what keeps us from being tempered, but trust me, it'll be totally cool for us to fight Garuda ICly.

Look, I know that white mages are a Rare Important Thing, but just listen, I've got this idea where...

In short, I think most people gravitate towards playing it safe in RP when it comes to the Big Elements that make up the game. Some don't, and that's fine. Some people are fine to play pedestrian people just living in the world. Sometimes those people also think "Well... I've been doing this role for a year or so. It's cool if I reveal that I'm actually part of an Important Bloodline, right?" And for most of us, we've done that in the past, are doing that now or will be contemplating that in the future. How many people are way into Ishgard, despite us having zero actual clue what the city is like? We can't even pinpoint what it takes to be a Dragoon capital-D with any validity.

Some people have a very small IOWIDI budget. Some people are playing without salary caps enabled and just do whatever they want in terms of storytelling. Some people try an accumulate invisible dollars to spend for when they need a Dramatic Storypoint. Every single one of these are valid and acceptable. The issue comes from when we try to point out that our viewpoint is the rightmost one. It isn't. We're all writing XIV Fanfiction.

In short: Do what you want. Don't be surprised if it goes over budget for the folks around you.

Melkire · **05-05-2015, 05:14 PM**

I tend to view lore in most settings as more of a framework that then contains original concepts, rather than a set of definitive rules that must be stringently adhered to. FFXIV is no exception. For this reason, I tend to be more accepting more often of lore bending than outright lore breaking.

Most concepts I run into ICly, therefore, don't necessarily require or even elicit the "run, drink it away, and disregard it as a fever dream" reaction. Case in point, I've run into quite a few variations of the Echo, and most of them were well within the confines of what little established lore we have on that topic. That's lore bending; you're working within a framework, but you're fudging a little here and there, and shifting this support beam about half a foot over, which while not perfect is at least within a certain tolerance. Now, on the other hand, if some Black Mage stood in front of my characters and then summoned the fully-fledged Bahamut? That's lore breaking, and I have a tendency to drop the RP right then and there if circumstances prevent me from passing it off as anything less than as-presented. Self-validation of claims that take a hard divergence from the established lore such that we break out of the framework that is FFXIV? Not okay with me.

I've never yet had to ditch a storyline or plot or narrative in this way yet as far as FFXIV RP goes, but I've had to do so elsewhere, and it always sucks. Those experiences have instilled caution and selectivity that borders on elitism in me. It's not "this person's RP sucks," it's "I can't trust that RP with this person won't progress into degrees of lore bending or lore breaking that I'm not okay with, so I'm not even going to start RPing with them."

This doesn't just apply to lore, either. If we're going to be getting into themes I'm uncomfortable with, an OoC dialogue begins and continues until limits are set and agreed to, or until talks break down and I decide to bail.

McBeefâ„¢ · **05-05-2015, 05:16 PM**

To Verad's point, it really depends on how much you trust the player, and its a sliding scale.

If it's something very ridiculous, like someone casting holy in the middle of the quicksand, and expecting everyone to duck... then you're going to get ignored.

If someone walks up going "I'm a primal!" it's like, "Ok, that's nice dear."

But if someone I RP with a lot and trust is suddenly like, "I'm actually a padjal."

I think, ok cool, let's see where this goes~ And I just trust that they're doing it for a good reason.

Cailean Lockwood · **05-05-2015, 05:29 PM**

I've always had the attitude that everyone can RP anything they want. Want to RP a demonic Voidsent? Then do that. Want to RP a dragon disguised as an Elezen? Go ahead. Want to RP as Kratos, Sephiroth, Iron Man or some other already existing character from another game or media? Sure, have fun.

However, do it with people who can accept you RP'ing as that. Don't expect everyone to accept your RP, because as long it is lore-breaking, they have no reason to.

If you think it's fun to RP whatever you want, then go have fun with that and don't let anything anyone says spoil that fun. But never force your RP on someone else if they don't accept what your RP.

And on the other side, if I see someone RP'ing something I don't want to accept due to it breaking the lore, then I'll just not RP with those people. But I would NEVER go tell them to NOT RP whatever lore-breaking RP they do. At most, I will inform them that their RP is lore-breaking, but if they wish to continue their RP then they are fully within their right to do so. ^^

FreelanceWizard · **05-05-2015, 08:31 PM**

(05-05-2015, 04:38 PM)Verad Wrote: What do you, however, when the player proves it through some metaphysical means? Some dimensional traveller, to use Klin's example, leaps into another Final Fantasy setting in front of you and comes back with Shantotto. Somebody claiming to be a primal manifests as such in front of you. For the more hardline lore-hounds, a WHM casts Succor or Holy. In short, something that would have a tangible effect on the world and can't be denied by a simple claim of insanity.

It's possible to retcon the matter and say that the person only saidÂ they did these things, and it didn't actually happen, but that's very much not letting the character lead; it's making an OOC judgment call in the moment and declaring that a fact stated by another player isn't actually a fact. On the other hand, taking the claim on faith and reacting to it means having to grapple with denying it IC at a later date. How do you address this problem?

It depends. Smile

I'm of the opinion that a person can claim anything they want ICly. I've often played liars, cheats, and scoundrels in MMOs, and they claim all sorts of things that aren't true. Smile

Even L'yhta lies now and then and sometimes makes claims about what she can do that aren't as easily dismissed as her typical puffery. It's when the person starts making OOC assertions that things go haywire -- and "proving the claim" falls into that territory. Perhaps it's not a popular approach, but when wild IC claims start turning into wild (or godmoding, or powerposing) OOC claims, I typically just excuse myself OOC with something akin to, "((I'm sorry, this scene isn't working for me, so I'm going to have to bow out.))" I then retcon that part of the scene, if not the whole scene, in my personal continuity. I don't see it as productive to argue with the person, IMO.

To the specific examples, when it comes to most magic, that's actually fairly easy, at least to me; it looked like that spell, but it wasn't that spell -- or it was that spell and they got some access to it through some means. This can be a spark for conversation, and I can usually run with that. The primal and the dimension hopping at will fall into that "highly outside of lore" category, and I'll just politely excuse myself OOC.

Harmonixer · **05-05-2015, 09:08 PM**

OP always comes up with interesting threads.

A long time ago, I used to have a set of hard and fast rules when it came to what RP was to me and what I would allow. This was after I had my stint with crazy concepts that bent rules and trying hard to do what I want exclusively. It was ripe with hardship, as you might have guessed. For a number of reasons, but as time went on... I relaxed a lot.

The only ones I try to 'enforce' for myself now is no playing of already present NPCs in the game. I did have the pleasure of meeting 'Thrall' and 'Sylvanas' more than once in Warcraft, and I would love to keep those are more distant memories.

So, with things like that in mind, it brings me to how I handle stuff today.

Mostly, I play it by a case by case scenario. I have no trouble admitting my own mood plays into this largely and varies from time to time. Some days, I'm very okay with allowing someone to bend the rules when it comes to lore. Sometimes it's major, sometimes it's tiny. I can't help but think back to the story of someone who played LotRs and had a magic spell that simply changed the colors of their dress. Apparently a large number of people were absolutely furious with the very idea of it! Myself? I would have let it slide. It seemed harmless, it's intent wasn't to gain anything other than the ability to change colors, right?

I like to think that I'm a fairly laid back person. I don't like making people feel stupid, I certainly don't enjoy making people unhappy. I get my kicks in seeing people entertained and enjoying themselves. Sometimes even trying to do this, puts me at odds with them. So when it comes to RP... I tend to let an awful lot slide. I keep my involvement limited if the time comes, usually by lack of contact or friendly tells about wanting to disengage for one reason or another. Most of the time, people who RP heavy lore breaking stuff don't actually care for partners, so much as an audience.

I guess I've more or less discovered I care much more for like minded individuals. I enjoy RP because it's somewhat of a performance. It's engaging and fun, and can vary a great deal. I keep contact with people I like if I can help it, and do my best not to be rude to ones I don't. I just remain distant. If asked? Sometimes I tell them clearly, depending on the person. As I've said, it's really rare that someone who 'gets under my skin' is actually aware that they are doing it because it's such a self absorbed practice in the first place.

A firm believer in that you should get 'exactly what you desire as an RPer,' I just don't have to be the one that provides it.

Perhaps it's years of playing a 'bad guy' and watching even the most lore mongering people simply bore the shit out of everyone involved has conditioned me to this state. Being tragically boring is a sentence that is self inflicted. This is super subjective though.

I kind of envy people who go out of their way to make themselves special 'snowflake' compared to community norms. They are generally much happier. I can't bring myself to attempt to police it for them, just seems wrong.

cherrybomb · **05-05-2015, 09:39 PM**

(05-05-2015, 09:08 PM)Harmonixer Wrote: I kind of envy people who go out of their way to make themselves special 'snowflake' compared to community norms. They are generally much happier. I can't bring myself to attempt to police it for them, just seems wrong.

I agree with this post in its entirety, but especially this sentiment here. Those folks are havin' fun, and I just don't have it in me to judge someone over how they spend their time roleplaying in Catgirls Online. We're all in this deeply, deeply nerdy hobby together, so I figure I might as well make the best of it. I personally just find it more rewarding to practice the "yes, and" principle instead of trying to shut someone down OOC or pull out a condescending IC dismissal. It probably helps to have a character that's willing to just bemusedly go with the flow.

But on the other end of the scale (and this is slightly off-topic from the main subject of the thread but I saw someone mention it and it's worth repeating so) if someone is making you genuinely uncomfortable? Then you really don't need an excuse, or a graceful opt-out. Trust your gut instinct and don't force yourself to continue to interact with a possible creeper out of some misguided need to be polite. A lot of people use OH BUT ITS JUST MY CHARACTER as a rationalization for absolutely vile behavior and pulling shit on shy, permissive people who don't have the self-confidence to just say 'no.' Err on the side of caution and stay safe. I haven't encountered this in-game yet, but I'm 100% willing to believe this is just as rampant in MMO RP communities as it is in collab writing ones.

Edgar · **05-05-2015, 10:24 PM**

(05-05-2015, 02:41 PM)Seriphyn Wrote: For example, over a year ago, me and some friends went out to see the Grindstone, wearing Flame overcoat gear. Some dude comes along and in-characted declares we're 'pretenders' for wearing the overcoats outside city walls. Like, not real Flames, or some shit. I called him out for that BS in /tells, but he proceeded to dismiss me and shut me down by insisting it was all in-character and I was making it out-of-character...utter bullshit, of course. By its passive-aggressive wording IC, it was clearly designed as a meta-assault on me and my friends' RP.

I had the same experience as Koporo roleplaying a Sultansworn and I swear to god the way this attack went down you and I encountered the same fucking person.

Gegenji · **05-06-2015, 12:09 PM**

I like to think I try to roll with most of the punches that get thrown my way. I try to have my character react to the situation as he would in such a case - maybe even being dorky enough to believe them for a bit to see where it goes before deciding whether to duck out. So I've dealt with a bunch of... interesting concepts in little one-shots and the like.

My big issue comes when they try to involve some of my other friends, who might not be so open to such things. How does everyone else handle that sort of thing? You're dealing with an... odd situation that you're relatively okay with, and then they want to bring a friend of yours?

A situation like that happened yesterday, in fact. It was honestly an interesting situation, and an interesting approach to dealing with it, but it was also... kinda sketchy in its presentation, I guess? Anyway, they wanted Chachan to bring in other characters that he knew that could help them out.

But I wasn't sure if they'd be so open to the idea being pitched, so I followed the first rule of RP and opened communication. I talked with those who could potentially be pulled in, gave them a rundown of my understanding of the situation, and mentioned what the character wanted. The responses were generally negative, so I found myself trying to deflect the situation or "pass the buck" elsewhere. And I felt kinda bad about it because Chachan, as a character, totally would've wanted to help if he could.

Fortunately, the situation itself kind of provided an "out." It involved the void to some degree, and the FC had just wrapped up a big arc involving a troublesome voidsent. And the character Chachan would've most likely directed the situation to had played a hefty role in said arc... and was still recovering somewhat. So, as a good friend, he wouldn't want to shove them right back into those sorts of dealings, right?

... Still felt awkward, though...

Kage · **05-06-2015, 12:16 PM**

(05-05-2015, 10:24 PM)Edgar Wrote:
(05-05-2015, 02:41 PM)Seriphyn Wrote: For example, over a year ago, me and some friends went out to see the Grindstone, wearing Flame overcoat gear. Some dude comes along and in-characted declares we're 'pretenders' for wearing the overcoats outside city walls. Like, not real Flames, or some shit. I called him out for that BS in /tells, but he proceeded to dismiss me and shut me down by insisting it was all in-character and I was making it out-of-character...utter bullshit, of course. By its passive-aggressive wording IC, it was clearly designed as a meta-assault on me and my friends' RP.

I had the same experience as Koporo roleplaying a Sultansworn and I swear to god the way this attack went down you and I encountered the same fucking person.

I actually don't see those people who used to give Sultansworn RPers a lot of shit before. Right before 2.5 yeah but not recently.

Their reactions were to insist everything was IC, standing on peoples characters' etc. Then also /emote about taking a gun out and shooting between the three trolls. I refuse to, and still do, refuse to believe they were genuinely wanting to RP.

Especially when some shit they would do is /sh I can't wait for when all the Sultansworn Rpers are out of jobs tomorrow (2.5 drop).

cuideag · **05-06-2015, 12:24 PM**

There was one time I was RPing in the Quicksand and a known troll strolled up and decided that they wanted to try and auction off this "weird black baby" that they found. I rolled with it. Maybe they had fun, I dunno. It was stupid and absurd and poor Jajara became even more angry and embittered with these weird, ignorant tall people that loiter around Ul'dah! Those no-good foreigners making gil off the backs of honest workers! And so on.

It was fun. Have fun.

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How to properly react to RP you don't like (or 'Punting the Puppy')

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