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Sounsyy · **12-15-2015, 08:29 AM**

(12-15-2015, 05:50 AM)Calliope Cloverbloom Wrote: There are facts, thank you. Fact: No form of plumbed toilet nor pre-toilet outhouse nor pre-outhouse chamberpots appear to exist in the setting as objects, items, or references by characters. Fact: No manner of related sanitary products, such as bathroom tissue, appear to exist in the setting as objects, items, or references by characters. Fact: No character to my knowledge ever references in any dialogue any manner of related bodily function.

Stubborn Sutler Wrote:Hmm, very nice. Fat and sweet-fleshed indeed. Don't look so queasy - 'twas some wily fishers that took to calling it our "latrines." The best fishing hole in these parts now, thanks to most folks keeping away.

Dhalmel Saliva Wrote:The odor of dhalmel saliva has been likened to that of the bloated corpse of a blue cheese artisan drowned in a Grand Company camp latrine and left to sit in the hot sun for a sennight.

I Could Feel That From Here Wrote:One can find many uses for skins stripped from the bones of our enemiesâ€”armor, decoys, wiping at the latrine. While one can use their imagination in desecrating the flesh of a dragon, there are not many knives as capable of cutting through such tough material as titanium. A knife smithed with a titanium edge so sharp that the dragon will still scream from hell as it feels its flesh get sliced into pieces.

Stained Cloth Wrote:A beautiful piece of cloth that appears to have been dragged through the mud, dipped in sheep offal, and then forgotten in a latrine.

Vyce · **12-15-2015, 09:01 AM**

(12-15-2015, 08:29 AM)Sounsyy Wrote:
(12-15-2015, 05:50 AM)Calliope Cloverbloom Wrote: There are facts, thank you. Fact: No form of plumbed toilet nor pre-toilet outhouse nor pre-outhouse chamberpots appear to exist in the setting as objects, items, or references by characters. Fact: No manner of related sanitary products, such as bathroom tissue, appear to exist in the setting as objects, items, or references by characters. Fact: No character to my knowledge ever references in any dialogue any manner of related bodily function.

Stubborn Sutler Wrote:Hmm, very nice. Fat and sweet-fleshed indeed. Don't look so queasy - 'twas some wily fishers that took to calling it our "latrines." The best fishing hole in these parts now, thanks to most folks keeping away.

Dhalmel Saliva Wrote:The odor of dhalmel saliva has been likened to that of the bloated corpse of a blue cheese artisan drowned in a Grand Company camp latrine and left to sit in the hot sun for a sennight.

I Could Feel That From Here Wrote:One can find many uses for skins stripped from the bones of our enemiesâ€”armor, decoys, wiping at the latrine. While one can use their imagination in desecrating the flesh of a dragon, there are not many knives as capable of cutting through such tough material as titanium. A knife smithed with a titanium edge so sharp that the dragon will still scream from hell as it feels its flesh get sliced into pieces.

Stained Cloth Wrote:A beautiful piece of cloth that appears to have been dragged through the mud, dipped in sheep offal, and then forgotten in a latrine.

Rekt.

Honestly you'd have to be a complete idiot to take game mechanics as lore. Our characters all have barbie groins under their underclothes. No organs to be seen. But you don't acknowledge that. It just isnt necessary to have them as visuals. By that same logic, the only possible attacks and magic are the ones defined by the class and job skills. That just isn't an accurate worldview.
Applying this to the subject at hand, you COULD very well have a WHM by RPing an actual Padjal. Just because the horns arent on your game character does not mean they are not there. What you can physically see in game is only a representation of what can exist but does not include all that exists.

Oli! · **12-15-2015, 09:35 AM**

(12-15-2015, 02:06 AM)Sounsyy Wrote: Taken from WHM quest transcripts:

Raya-O-Senna Wrote:Now, these misbehaving elementals would have long been pacified, but for the fact that most incidents transpire outside the Twelveswood. I am duty-bound to the forest, you see, and cannot attend to the matter, while Stillglade Fane has not the manpower to spare at present for an undertaking beyond our borders.

But you, Sounsyyâ”€you may do what we Gridanians cannot. So I bid you journey forth to quell the keening of the elementals throughout Eorzea. And, as you act in my name, I hereby permit you the use of white magic. *Raya-O reaches out her hand here and Player Character begins to glow!

Take here this linkpearl and the Soul of the White Mage. The latter is an ancient crystal imbued with the light of succorâ”€by its power, the forbidden art will be yours to wield, albeit within the bounds of your skill as a conjurer.

To walk the path of the white mage is to devote oneself to the salving of hurts and the lifting of miseryâ”€ours is the hand that proffers comfort. Should it ever come to light that you have used your powers contrary to this, be forewarned that you will promptly be dispossessed of the crystal and duly punished.

*The reason I added this is that Raya-O apparently unlocks my ability to wield Succor before ever handing me the soulcrystal in the next text box.

This is just what I was getting at, so I'm glad that there's a proper quote for it now, thank you.

If anything, judging by the way that she speaks of it after unlocking your power, and the similar way that she speaks of WHM's garments, the Soulstone and related materials are likely just a way to streamline the process / make channeling Succor easier.

But since she's granting you the ability beforehand, it's more likely that the Soulstone has less to do with it than assumed.

Also is it really necessary to go into the proving of statements instead of logic by arguing over the existence of toilets?

I feel like we're taking whatever personal points we have to prove with each other too far.

Vyce · **12-15-2015, 09:43 AM**

It seems more like she attuned you to the Soul Crystal. It also seems that those not given Succor by the Elementals may need to use the Soul Crystals (likely transcribed with memories by the Padjal over the ages) to wield Succor. If you misuse it, she can take away the crystal with her middle finger pointed at you.

Verilys · **12-15-2015, 11:03 AM**

I really feel like there should be some form of peace treaty when it comes to the topic of White Mages. The only thing new that comes out of these discussions are novel (and often quite roundabout) ways of saying "we're not really sure and we may never know".

Warren Castille · **12-15-2015, 11:35 AM**

(12-15-2015, 11:03 AM)Verilys Wrote: I really feel like there should be some form of peace treaty when it comes to the topic of White Mages. The only thing new that comes out of these discussions are novel (and often quite roundabout) ways of saying "we're not really sure and we may never know".

See, White Magic is an allegory for real life, in that we can only ever make the best decision for ourselves with what limited information we have available at the time in the hopes that things don't go off the rails in the future.

Damn, SE. You deep.

Vyce · **12-15-2015, 11:47 AM**

(12-15-2015, 11:35 AM)Warren Castille Wrote:
(12-15-2015, 11:03 AM)Verilys Wrote: I really feel like there should be some form of peace treaty when it comes to the topic of White Mages. The only thing new that comes out of these discussions are novel (and often quite roundabout) ways of saying "we're not really sure and we may never know".

See, White Magic is an allegory for real life, in that we can only ever make the best decision for ourselves with what limited information we have available at the time in the hopes that things don't go off the rails in the future.

Damn, SE. You deep.

And when the inevitably do, revise.

Currently no non-Padjal have been granted Succor directly from the Elementals, so we cannot accurately RP such a thing. IF in the future, we have an example of the Elementals bestowing Succor upon another individual for reasons accessible to normal, non WoL people, we can revise. But as it stands, the only way is to be important enough to the fate of the world that a Padjal can justify giving you the Soul Gem, or you happen to find an amdaporian gem, or you acquire Succor nefariously. We unfortunately do not know what that nefarious way is.

Warren Castille · **12-15-2015, 11:54 AM**

That's not true, though.

(12-15-2015, 02:06 AM)Sounsyy Wrote:
Raya-O-Senna Wrote:In order to save Eorzea, we must avail ourselves of greater powerâ”€-we must avail ourselves of the garb of succor, the legendary artifacts worn by the white mages of old. Ancient chronicles hold that the garb is imbued with the light of succor, and is bestowed only upon those deemed true servants of the forest. The garb comprises five artifacts, each of which heightens the wearer's affinity with the elementals. There exist accounts of white mages who successfully entreated elementals to render their essence unto the garb as a show of ultimate favor.

The game says it has happened. Now, you can wave hands at 1.0 lore and dismiss it, or you can ignore that we haven't met any of these folks in the wild, but there's a method right there: Do awesome things the Elementals like, receive special powers.

McBeefâ„¢ · **12-15-2015, 12:04 PM**

So basically what I said. Be a white mage if you want, and just be vague on how.

"Something something elementals."

Not everything needs to be cut and dry. I've found the community does a good job of handling ambiguity.

Verilys · **12-15-2015, 12:06 PM**

It's really less about what's depicted in the lore and what's accurate and more about how we expand upon an abstracted world. That is to say, most of use do not RP in FFXIV -- rather, the characters we create and interact with are in a world inspired by FFXIV. I make that distinction, because FFXIV is, as I mentioned, an abstracted world. It's a chunk of lore that's been flattened down and shrunk to a create a playable game.

None of us have a complete picture. We take what information we can glean from the story, the dialogue, the comments made by developers and and try to make sense of it all.

Some role-players expand inwards, some role-players expand outwards. That's... pretty much it.

Vyce · **12-15-2015, 12:24 PM**

(12-15-2015, 11:54 AM)Warren Castille Wrote: That's not true, though.

(12-15-2015, 02:06 AM)Sounsyy Wrote:
Raya-O-Senna Wrote:In order to save Eorzea, we must avail ourselves of greater powerâ”€-we must avail ourselves of the garb of succor, the legendary artifacts worn by the white mages of old. Ancient chronicles hold that the garb is imbued with the light of succor, and is bestowed only upon those deemed true servants of the forest. The garb comprises five artifacts, each of which heightens the wearer's affinity with the elementals. There exist accounts of white mages who successfully entreated elementals to render their essence unto the garb as a show of ultimate favor.

The game says it has happened. Now, you can wave hands at 1.0 lore and dismiss it, or you can ignore that we haven't met any of these folks in the wild, but there's a method right there: Do awesome things the Elementals like, receive special powers.

That doesn't disprove anything I said. It says "White Mages" implying they were already White Mages. Those vestments are also imbued with the light of Succor but it does not specify that wearing the garments enables the use of it. It also says "true servants of the forest". As far as we know, the Padjal ARE the true servants of the forest as decided by the Elementals directly. The WoL is the hero of the world and is an exception to all rules.
It also specifies that this Garb of Succor is not widely in use. It is ancient artifacts that enhance White Magic when worn by a White Mage. If you do not have the ability to utilize Succor, it is not quite as useful. It does not make you a White Mage by wearing them. even if you are a White Mage, it doesn't mean you have the garments. They only gave them to the WoL because hero.

Warren Castille · **12-15-2015, 01:00 PM**

(12-15-2015, 12:24 PM)Vyce Wrote:
(12-15-2015, 11:54 AM)Warren Castille Wrote: That's not true, though.

(12-15-2015, 02:06 AM)Sounsyy Wrote:
Raya-O-Senna Wrote:In order to save Eorzea, we must avail ourselves of greater powerâ”€-we must avail ourselves of the garb of succor, the legendary artifacts worn by the white mages of old. Ancient chronicles hold that the garb is imbued with the light of succor, and is bestowed only upon those deemed true servants of the forest. The garb comprises five artifacts, each of which heightens the wearer's affinity with the elementals. There exist accounts of white mages who successfully entreated elementals to render their essence unto the garb as a show of ultimate favor.

The game says it has happened. Now, you can wave hands at 1.0 lore and dismiss it, or you can ignore that we haven't met any of these folks in the wild, but there's a method right there: Do awesome things the Elementals like, receive special powers.

That doesn't disprove anything I said. It says "White Mages" implying they were already White Mages. Those vestments are also imbued with the light of Succor but it does not specify that wearing the garments enables the use of it. It also says "true servants of the forest". As far as we know, the Padjal ARE the true servants of the forest as decided by the Elementals directly. The WoL is the hero of the world and is an exception to all rules.
It also specifies that this Garb of Succor is not widely in use. It is ancient artifacts that enhance White Magic when worn by a White Mage. If you do not have the ability to utilize Succor, it is not quite as useful. It does not make you a White Mage by wearing them. even if you are a White Mage, it doesn't mean you have the garments. They only gave them to the WoL because hero.

Even that's available for interpretation, though. Who actually crowns someone a white mage? They had to come from somewhere, and it was most likely the elementals. There's no White Mage Academy you have to graduate from. I interpret (maybe incorrectly!) that the last sentence implies white mages were created by Elementals granting them that "ultimate favor" in the form of imbued clothing.

By being permitted that favor, it could have made someone a White Mage. Or, it could have been an existing White Mage making more magic undies. Or it could have been some other thing. There's room to play in besides "nefarious means" so it's not unreasonable to use that as a background. Hell, even the WHM lore states that only the WoL has been granted that power, but the source could be biased. Not all padjals have to know about everything the Elementals are up to, you know? If someone made some great sacrifice for the Twelveswood before the WoL ever turned up, and this person was found Worthy and just... never turned up to hang out in Gridania? Sure, let's go with it.

I suppose I just mean I'm open to the idea as long as it's something beyond "WoL plus me too."

Yssen · **12-15-2015, 01:04 PM**

(12-15-2015, 12:04 PM)McBeefâ„¢ Wrote: So basically what I said. Be a white mage if you want, and just be vague on how.

"Something something elementals."

Not everything needs to be cut and dry. I've found the community does a good job of handling ambiguity.

And hide it. Keep it secret, keep it safe. Either because you got it nefariously, or you will have crazy power mad other mages trying to hunt you down and dissect you to figure out how. Or don't, good plot comes from that too. Yar.

Vyce · **12-15-2015, 01:46 PM**

(12-15-2015, 01:00 PM)Warren Castille Wrote:
(12-15-2015, 12:24 PM)Vyce Wrote:
(12-15-2015, 11:54 AM)Warren Castille Wrote: That's not true, though.

(12-15-2015, 02:06 AM)Sounsyy Wrote:
Raya-O-Senna Wrote:In order to save Eorzea, we must avail ourselves of greater powerâ”€-we must avail ourselves of the garb of succor, the legendary artifacts worn by the white mages of old. Ancient chronicles hold that the garb is imbued with the light of succor, and is bestowed only upon those deemed true servants of the forest. The garb comprises five artifacts, each of which heightens the wearer's affinity with the elementals. There exist accounts of white mages who successfully entreated elementals to render their essence unto the garb as a show of ultimate favor.

The game says it has happened. Now, you can wave hands at 1.0 lore and dismiss it, or you can ignore that we haven't met any of these folks in the wild, but there's a method right there: Do awesome things the Elementals like, receive special powers.

That doesn't disprove anything I said. It says "White Mages" implying they were already White Mages. Those vestments are also imbued with the light of Succor but it does not specify that wearing the garments enables the use of it. It also says "true servants of the forest". As far as we know, the Padjal ARE the true servants of the forest as decided by the Elementals directly. The WoL is the hero of the world and is an exception to all rules.
It also specifies that this Garb of Succor is not widely in use. It is ancient artifacts that enhance White Magic when worn by a White Mage. If you do not have the ability to utilize Succor, it is not quite as useful. It does not make you a White Mage by wearing them. even if you are a White Mage, it doesn't mean you have the garments. They only gave them to the WoL because hero.

Even that's available for interpretation, though. Who actually crowns someone a white mage? They had to come from somewhere, and it was most likely the elementals. There's no White Mage Academy you have to graduate from. I interpret (maybe incorrectly!) that the last sentence implies white mages were created by Elementals granting them that "ultimate favor" in the form of imbued clothing.

By being permitted that favor, it could have made someone a White Mage. Or, it could have been an existing White Mage making more magic undies. Or it could have been some other thing. There's room to play in besides "nefarious means" so it's not unreasonable to use that as a background. Hell, even the WHM lore states that only the WoL has been granted that power, but the source could be biased. Not all padjals have to know about everything the Elementals are up to, you know? If someone made some great sacrifice for the Twelveswood before the WoL ever turned up, and this person was found Worthy and just... never turned up to hang out in Gridania? Sure, let's go with it.

I suppose I just mean I'm open to the idea as long as it's something beyond "WoL plus me too."

Except the Padjal would know. It's Kan E Senna's job to know.

You may also want to take into account that the WoL does not even receive the special garments until he/she has proven to be a paragon of White Mages and has shown to live by the tenets of White Mage law. The Warrior of Light proved his worth, and was allowed to don the garb for the impending fight. Theyre may be more than the one outfit in the world, but so far only a proven loyal White Mage has been granted use of it.

Warren Castille · **12-15-2015, 01:49 PM**

(12-15-2015, 01:46 PM)Vyce Wrote: Except the Padjal would know. It's Kan E Senna's job to know.

You may also want to take into account that the WoL does not even receive the special garments until he/she has proven to be a paragon of White Mages and has shown to live by the tenets of White Mage law. The Warrior of Light proved his worth, and was allowed to don the garb for the impending fight. Theyre may be more than the one outfit in the world, but so far only a proven loyal White Mage has been granted use of it.

Job to know =/= omniscient woodland powers

For the record, I sort of agree with you. I'm just saying there's wiggle room if people want to go that route.

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Is it really impossible to RP if I want my character to become a White Mage?

RPC has moved! These pages have been kept for historical purposes