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Nako Vesh · **09-29-2013, 11:54 AM**

(09-29-2013, 06:53 AM)Theodric Ironheart Wrote:
(09-29-2013, 06:46 AM)K Wrote: I guess I am the only one who also is shocked to see runs being sold but okay @-@

You're not the only one! Well, I wouldn't say I'm shocked, but it's something I'm definitely against. It serves to cheapen the content in question and is partly why I'm not particularly keen on indulging in high end raiding any longer. I used to devote to it back in WoW, though the rise in the amount of players who would throw money around to get the same gear, titles and mounts that had once been largely exclusive to players who had earned them became pretty ridiculous.

Unfortunately, this has been going on behind the scenes in the progression quarter of MMOs for a long, long time. It's usually not so dramatic as to sabotage encounters, but spot trading has always been a thing. People get weirdly desperate when it comes to pixel loot.

Naunet · **09-29-2013, 12:31 PM**

I don't really see anything wrong with selling runs as long as everything is on the up-and-up (clear rules laid down, everyone is treated respectfully, etc). It's just something to do to raise money for a guild, and it can help get people access to things who might otherwise never get it. Selling achievement, mount, or boss clears was a common thing in my time in WoW, and I never batted an eye. Things become not-okay when someone decides to sabotage other groups to stir up demand for their for-sale runs.

Ashren Dotharl · **09-29-2013, 04:05 PM**

(09-29-2013, 07:03 AM)K Wrote: but I can't get my head around 'helping' someone who I assume is having trouble doing a dungeon run and then stretching out an open palm before them afterwards and expecting them to pay you for it.

This isn't really accurate to what is happening, not with the legit people anyways. The people sabotaging may be doing this kind of thing, but the ones who are just offering to run people through for money are basically like... mercenaries. You contact them yourself, payment is discussed, a contract is formed, they provide you a service, you pay them for said service. In this case said service is killing a Primal. Eventually you'll probably see people selling Coil Turns as well.

Most players aren't taking advantage of other players, they are just being capitalists and taking advantage of the situation, it's completely up to the players in most cases if they want to pay someone for the run, and in a lot of cases it has nothing to do with the skill (or lack of) for players, sadly Titan can be an incredibly difficult fight just because of lag.

Cato · **09-30-2013, 09:58 AM**

[youtube]TRTkCHE1sS4[/youtube]

I'll stand by my earlier point and state that it simply serves to cheapen the experience. There's an element of prestige and awe surrounding the completion of high end content. Back in WoW I'd see people walking around in distinct gear obtained through raids and dungeons. My first instinct wasn't to throw money at them in order to get it for myself, it was to strive to hone my skills so that someday I could walk around in the same gear with all the perks associated with it. The journey mattered just as much as the destination.

Yet a troubling amount of players don't care for the challenge or experience. They want all the perks with none of the drawbacks. They're usually very entitled, getting rich off of the backs of their peers - usually through employing questionable tactics on the auction house, buying in-game currency or just spending a huge amount of time mindlessly grinding in order to earn money...which is time they could have spent practicing to tackle the content themselves.

At this point people will no doubt pull out the counter of 'itz ther money!!!1 dey can do wat dey want lol xD' to which I'll happily reply that it's true - though it certainly doesn't excuse them from criticism, nor does it suddenly mean that the pool of potential players for high end content isn't growing smaller as a result of more people relying upon paying their way to victory.

K'dath · **09-30-2013, 10:05 AM**

It's people paying people to play the game they pay for to play for them.

The logic of it is baffling, isn't it?

Cato · **09-30-2013, 10:07 AM**

Edit: Oops, I read the above post wrong! Serves me right for posting when in a rush.

IncubusManatee · **09-30-2013, 10:49 AM**

[Image: tumblr_md3o6aXW941r5vpk0o1_500.jpg]

I think mar's is good this time of year.

Jomoru · **10-01-2013, 07:50 AM**

(09-30-2013, 09:58 AM)Theodric Ironheart Wrote: I'll stand by my earlier point and state that it simply serves to cheapen the experience. There's an element of prestige and awe surrounding the completion of high end content. Back in WoW I'd see people walking around in distinct gear obtained through raids and dungeons. My first instinct wasn't to throw money at them in order to get it for myself, it was to strive to hone my skills so that someday I could walk around in the same gear with all the perks associated with it. The journey mattered just as much as the destination.

Yet a troubling amount of players don't care for the challenge or experience. They want all the perks with none of the drawbacks. They're usually very entitled, getting rich off of the backs of their peers - usually through employing questionable tactics on the auction house, buying in-game currency or just spending a huge amount of time mindlessly grinding in order to earn money...which is time they could have spent practicing to tackle the content themselves.

At this point people will no doubt pull out the counter of 'itz ther money!!!1 dey can do wat dey want lol xD' to which I'll happily reply that it's true - though it certainly doesn't excuse them from criticism, nor does it suddenly mean that the pool of potential players for high end content isn't growing smaller as a result of more people relying upon paying their way to victory.

I have a different argument, those people who's hard work you admired to get those items? Time they took getting that was time they weren't making Gil or gold or whatever. Â Now it costs them a pretty penny to be the best, gear addons, consumables etc stuff they can't quite catch up on. So they sell the service they've gotten good at.

raindrops · **10-01-2013, 02:08 PM**

(09-30-2013, 09:58 AM)Theodric Ironheart Wrote: At this point people will no doubt pull out the counter of 'itz ther money!!!1 dey can do wat dey want lol xD' to which I'll happily reply that it's true - though it certainly doesn't excuse them from criticism, nor does it suddenly mean that the pool of potential players for high end content isn't growing smaller as a result of more people relying upon paying their way to victory.

I'd argue that they're not making the pool of players any smaller - the only people who are paying to be carried are likely people who wouldn't be doing this themselves anyway. It might be diluting the pool, adding a lot of people who don't know how to handle endgame content, but as far as I'm aware Coil can't be duty finder'd for (I think, anyway?) so if you don't want a player who was carried through Titan in your group then you can identify players who can't keep up with you and not group with them again fairly easily.

Honestly I'd argue that if anything the ability to sell runs and make money off them, at a point when it's quite difficult to make money ingame without playing the auction houses of having a craft at 50, may well serve to convince more people to try and master that content so that they can sell runs. And maybe having their awesome relic weapon will be motivation for people who were carried to learn how to use it.

For Titan specifically there's also the issue that due to current issues that fight is literally near-impossible, regardless of skill, on some ISPs and in some areas. My ISP right now is an enormous arse and isn't particularly fond of allowing me to get out of AOEs because it thinks FFXIV is a P2P program, no matter how quick I am. I really don't want to be carried through, but this means my plan for Titan right now is that I'll have to memorize the entire thing and do it from memory. Kind of a pain.

Qhora Bajihri · **10-03-2013, 05:27 PM**

To me, selling runs isn't something I have a problem with per se, provided the guild doing so is respectable, insofar as that can be defined at all. Usually for me that means no advertising at all and just offering the service to people who ask for it because they've developed a reputation for skill.

That being said, buying or selling runs is not something I would ever choose to do myself. I see it like an opposing political view. Sure, whatever, I guess it works for some people if they want to play the game like that. But I certainly agree that for me, it cheapens the experience and reduces content, which is in effect the game itself, to gil for cutscenes and clothing, which just isn't my definition of fun. I won't frown at you for doing it, but don't expect me to cheer, either. You do your thing, I'll do mine.

Doing anything to purposely sabotage a a dungeon run, though, whatever the reason, is pretty sad and despicable. Being a bad player is one thing. Ruining other people's game is not cool on any level.

CrimsonMars · **10-03-2013, 07:09 PM**

I failed to understand why people would waste their money on runs just so they can get carried.

LiadansWhisper · **10-03-2013, 07:20 PM**

(10-03-2013, 07:09 PM)CrimsonMars Wrote: I failed to understand why people would waste their money on runs just so they can get carried.

It's big business in WoW. Â Happens very frequently. Â People want the titles, the achievements, gear, mounts, etc, but they don't have a group that can get that done, or any hope of getting it done in the foreseeable future.

Ashren Dotharl · **10-04-2013, 04:43 AM**

(10-03-2013, 07:20 PM)LiadansWhisper Wrote:
(10-03-2013, 07:09 PM)CrimsonMars Wrote: I failed to understand why people would waste their money on runs just so they can get carried.

It's big business in WoW. Â Happens very frequently. Â People want the titles, the achievements, gear, mounts, etc, but they don't have a group that can get that done, or any hope of getting it done in the foreseeable future.

This pretty much. If you don't have a full group, or any group at all, then people pay to get runs through stuff with another group. Not everyone gets carried, you could be fully geared and a skilled player and just not capable of finding a good group to run with, so you pay for a group that promises victory just so you can experience it. Besides Titan is just a roadblock, real content starts in Coil.

LiadansWhisper · **10-04-2013, 12:04 PM**

(10-04-2013, 04:43 AM)Ashren Snow Wrote:
(10-03-2013, 07:20 PM)LiadansWhisper Wrote:
(10-03-2013, 07:09 PM)CrimsonMars Wrote: I failed to understand why people would waste their money on runs just so they can get carried.

It's big business in WoW. Â Happens very frequently. Â People want the titles, the achievements, gear, mounts, etc, but they don't have a group that can get that done, or any hope of getting it done in the foreseeable future.
This pretty much. If you don't have a full group, or any group at all, then people pay to get runs through stuff with another group. Not everyone gets carried, you could be fully geared and a skilled player and just not capable of finding a good group to run with, so you pay for a group that promises victory just so you can experience it. Besides Titan is just a roadblock, real content starts in Coil.

At least in WoW, I have actually heard of situations where a buyer ended up impressing the guild that carried them through the content to the extent that the guild in question offered them a trial.

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