(08-20-2015, 09:41 AM)Yssen Wrote: This area of lore bits, like most areas of lore bits surrounding the elementals, strikes on a particularly frustrating note for all people diving into finding lore. Unreliable narrator.
Stuff contradicts itself because it is meant to as part of the story/setting, and even the NPCs either don't know or are not revealing the entire truth of what is going on. We have to take what they say with huge helpings of salt, or make our best educated guess based on what is presented. The only primary source of lore we have is what Koji and the rest of the lore team devs reveal to us, and even they cannot reveal to us everything. This is not to say that we cannot use NPCs as sources to try and figure stuff out, it just means that when the we have a contradiction between what the devs have said and what the NPCs are saying we have to assume the NPCs are wrong in some way/shape/form. This "take with salt" situation is not limited to the subjects of the elementals, Gridania, and the Black Shroud.Â
In fairness, we knew going into this that most of that was probably a lie. Â The story never really made any sense to me - and that's going back to the references we had from 1.0. Â History is always written by the victors, and we already knew before we went anywhere near Ishgard that stuff was rotten to the core (especially after the end of that patch trailer that showed the Archbishop with some Very Bad Friends™).
Quote:With that said this is what we know about Succor:
- It was discovered by the Amdapori.
We don't know if it was discovered by them, we know they were the first to use it wholescale.
Quote:- There are ways to get it without it being gifted by the Shroud elementals (either by unknown more nefarious means, or possibly being granted access by elementals outside of the Shroud).
The first alternative is confirmed by the devs. Â The second has no confirmation that I am aware of. Â Never seen it mentioned before. Â As far as we know, the elementals in areas outside of the Shroud are busy sleeping and not interacting with mortals when at all possible. Â I'm not sure that a non-Hearer would be able to communicate with them at all to actually receive this blessing (and remember that the Pact of Gelmorra was only struck after Hearers were abruptly born into the population of Gelmorrans).
Quote:- Mankind was cut off from it by the Shroud elementals after the War of the Magi because of its miss use in the war and the time period leading up to it.
- There are connection between it and the Amdapori voidsent (Diabolos and such).
Not...really? Â Diabolos and the other voidsent were summoned into there by the Black Mage city, not the Amdapori as far as we know.
Quote:- The Padjal have been granted use of it as part of the Pact of Gelmorra, and may or may not have been created to be the sole wielders of it after the Shroud elementals cut mankind off from it. They are the sole wielders of Succor (other than the WoL) that do so with the Shroud elemental's approval.
I got the impression from the questline that the Padjal being granted Succor may have been a side-effect of the purpose the Elementals had for them. Â They just happened to be the "best option."
Quote:My personal vote, from what we know first hand, is that Succor was discovered by the Amdapori. It may not be a man made source of power, but the art of using it as a power source certainly is. In point of fact, most magic sources were not made my man, they aleady existed. People simply figured out how to use and direct them (or they were given a "how-to book" by the Ascians). Mankind figuring out how to tap into Succor seems to have been the primary reason the Shroud elementals went cuckoo bananas.
I think you're ignoring a lot of what the quests say about what was going on the time. Â Your idea is trite and fun, but doesn't really fit with what the quests and dialogue say. Â It wasn't mankind gaining access to Succor that sent the Elementals into a rage. Â It was what they - and the Black Mages - did with that power.
Quote:Basically, White Magic was created by man. The power source for it has always existed and is presently under the elemental's control (specifically the Shroud elementals, we have yet to really hear for certainty if elementals outside the Shroud can or cannot grant access to it).
I'm not willing to say with certainty that White Magic was "created" by mankind. Â The lore seems to indicate that Succor has always existed, and that mankind merely learned how to tap into it after being gifted with the knowledge of its existence by the Elementals. Â This differs from Black Magic, which was clearly discovered by a mortal (Shattoto) who did extensive research and experimentation to discover it.
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