(03-01-2014, 06:52 AM)Seriphyn Wrote: I guess there might be a distinction between bourgeois and aristocratic nobility then: wealth based and family based, with Gridania having the former, Ul'dah having both, and Ishgard having the latter.
Considering the Pact of Gelmorra which governs Gridania, nobility based upon Wealth would not be viable. Gridanians must give back all excess to the Wood. Gridania and its denizens are very poor as a result. In the MSQ we're given the example of a Wood Wailer named Laurentius who betrays his nation to Garlemald because he can't even afford to feed himself or his family.
(03-01-2014, 03:30 AM)Ildur Wrote: Gridania does have nobility (as per the Haukke Manor quest), but the way in which one becomes a noble is not clear at all. Maybe the owner of the manor was the remnant of some old political system? Because I don't think you see any nobles mentioned in Gridania proper. Or maybe they were foreign nobles that somehow got ownership on the land. I forgot if the storyline ever mentioned how that lady got to become a noble in the first place.
The best indicator that Gridania may have "nobility" is given by the NPCs Ursandel and Severaint, both found in (11,4) Old Gridania.
Ursandel: "The manor I once served in was no less magnificent than those found in the Gentry's Ward yonder. And magnificent it should be, for it was formerly home to generations of Seedseers. However, the Elder Seedseer before the last declared that he needed not such extravagance, and the abode came into the ownership of the Dartancours family."
Severaint: "The district beyond is home to distinguished Gridanians. Commoners may not enter."
Now, based on these two quotes, the argument over Gridania having Nobility can go either way. But let's look at the definition of "gentry."
Gentry:Â (noun) - [1] wellborn or well-bred people. [2] (in England) the class below the nobility. [3] an upper or ruling class; aristocracy. [4] those who are not members of the nobility but are entitled to a coat of arms, especially those owning large tracts of land.
Combine these definitions of Gentry with Severaint's quote. "Wellborn" or "distinguished" could easily be taken to mean that Bowlord Lewin lives in the Gentry's Ward. It doesn't necessarily state nobility. Lewin's just a Guildmaster and by association, a member of the Seedseer Council.
We have lore that indicates there are some distinguished families in Gridania from a Dev Post from Fernehalwes talking about Padjal. He states that there are a few select families of Hyur/Elezen which tend to produce more Padjal, such as the Senna Family. [Source]
"An upper or ruling class" - Sure, but that would mean the Seedseers. Otherwise, hard to distinguish who is an upper class citizen in a socialist-based society with no wealth to its name.
The other two definitions of Gentry point to a class of people who are sub-nobility. So, does Gridania actually have nobility?? I personally say it does not. But I leave that up to you and your RP group.
Anyways, to the matter of Haukke Manor:
From the Duty Finder we have this text:
Quote:Once used by Seedseers as a place for spiritual reflection and meditation, Haukke Manor was long frowned upon by the people of Gridania as a symbol of excess. After years of protest, the building was finally sold to a wealthy Duskwight by the name of Lady Amandine.
From Journal text of Secret of the White Lily:
Quote:Ursandel instantly recognizes the sigil as that of the old and proud Dartancours family.
I'm going to argue that Lady Amandine Dartancours was NOTÂ Gridanian, but instead Ishgardian Nobility. Here's my train of thought:
If we look around at Gridania today, the only indications of people having a higher social status than the general populous are quoted at the top of this post. (Unless I've missed something?) Which I've gone over already. And even if these distinguished individuals are "nobility" nowhere do we see someone other than Lady Amandine state they are from "House Whatever." Where do we see Elezen boasting left and right which Noble House they are from? Ishgard.
Back to the Haukke Manor Duty Finder text:
Quote:"From facial creams concocted from rare Coerthas honeys..."
Let's bring up race. Dartancours is a Duskwight House. Remember that Duskwights and Wildwoods do NOT share Family names, so if Lady Amandine is Duskwight, her whole House is Duskwight. Duskwights are treated as sub-human to Gridanians. There's no way that there's Duskwight Nobility running around Gridania. Where do we see a good many Duskwight NPCs? Ishgard.Â
Now, let's tie this all together with a history lesson. Ursandel tells us Haukke Manor was sold to the Dartancours family by the Elder Seedseer before the last. So about three hyur generations. So I'm going to guess between 90 and 120 years ago. If this hypothesis is correct, this is right around the time of The Autumn War. For those who don't know, The Autumn War was fought between the Gridanians and the Ala Mhigans. It accounts for some of the bloodiest battles in the history of both nations. If you would like to learn more about it, I'd suggest talking to Erik in (10,13) Steps of Thal (Goldsmith's Guild). He's a great source for lore about Gridania, Sil'Dih, Ala Mhigo, Crystal Tower, and a whole slew of ancient battlefields. (But I think you have to have completed the MNK 50 Job Quest in order to read his essays.)
Anyways, back on topic. Ala Mhigo very nearly conquered Gridania during the Autumn War. Until Ishgard stepped in to defend the Black Shroud. Ishgard knew that if Ala Mhigo conquered Gridania, it would leave their nation fully undefended against invasion. (This is why Ishgard and Gridania have such a close alliance today.) The nations of Ul'dah and Limsa followed Ishgard's lead in defending Gridania. It took the combined strength of all four nations to repel Ala Mhigo.
Now, before the Autumn War, Gridania was completely isolationist. They didn't allow any Outsiders into the Twelveswood. After the Autumn War, they began to open up their borders to other nations, particularly Ishgard.Â
So let's suppose House Dartancours was one of the Noble Houses that came to Gridania's aid during The Autumn War. And what if they liked the Twelveswood so much they decided to stay? Lady Amandine of House Dartancours relieves the Elder Seedseer of a gorgeous mansion fit for nobility such as herself. And the Elder Seedseer gets out from under public scrutiny for the Seedseers having such a lavish house when the rest of their nation is in poverty and has recently been soundly trounced by the Ala Mhigans. Everyone wins and lives happily ever after... well, we know what eventually happens to Lady Amandine.
TL;DR:
My argument that Gridania does not in fact have nobility.
