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Dis · **06-29-2015, 02:15 PM**

(06-29-2015, 01:01 PM)FreelanceWizard Wrote: -snip-

That seems a lot more reasonable than some comments I've seen about the use of level in judgment. Â That said, it's going to be hilarious when I finish leveling my alt, and people see her as a level 60 monk. Â My goal is to make her the inverse of a powerful low-level character. Â She's going to be a high leveled character who's just plain bad. Â The 'skilled adventurer' assessment with her would be completely wrong, if someone presumed that about her. Â

I think that's part of why I wondered about the level bit. Â Glioca's only a moderate swordswoman (she can bash other things and not hurt herself), and a much better healer, having had far more experience with it. Â The alt I mentioned, Liviana, I plan on spending a week soon and grinding her out to 50, at least, but she's just so terribleÂ at fighting, because she has almost no hand-eye coordination. Â

She's not likely to pick a fight with anyone, and would sooner run from battle, but there's still that imbalance if people look at her level and don't just interact with her first to realize certain things about her. Â Maybe it's the fact that I've played so many years free-form before MMO RP was a thing, that I have such a drastically (apparently) different view than others. Â There were no such things as levels for gauging character strength, just how well people wrote. Â

Thank you for being so candid, and explaining it a bit better though. Â I will say I tend to like your method better than most.

Magellan · **06-29-2015, 02:41 PM**

@Girona

I agree with a lot of what you say. I would much rather rp out my character's path to strength, then have it happen off camera, Â oocly. Therefore, where they are in their personal growth matters to me, not level.

I've also enjoyed rping a 'path to weakness' story arc. A character who starts strong, is brought low, and has to rebuild

Gaspard · **06-29-2015, 03:15 PM**

For me personally OOC achievement has no relevance to your character at all, period. Taking it as indicator for anything is simply assuming at best. The 'only', truly valid information you could get from someones level is the degree of time he spends in the game.

Also, some food for thought.

Let's say you spend all your time leveling, min/maxing your character by running dungeons etc, until you got a decked out lvl 60 character (which, more or less, is OOC content given you're not RPing the Warrior of Light himself).Â

Someone else spends all that time Roleplaying fighting sessions and training, his characters OOC level is however 15. He invest however the same amount of time, and possibly even more effort.

So who's the stronger one? The one who's got his shiny Artifact weapon and all dat armor and shiny lvl 60 tag and armor?

Or the guy that chose to RP for 'all' of that equivalent time, roleplaying training sessions, workouts, etc etc.

My moneys on the latter guy.

Hammersmith · **06-29-2015, 03:23 PM**

(06-29-2015, 03:15 PM)Gaspard Wrote: For me personally OOC achievement has no relevance to your character at all, period. Taking it as indicator for anything is simply assuming at best. The 'only', truly valid information you could get from someones level is the degree of time he spends in the game.

Also, some food for thought.

Let's say you spend all your time leveling, min/maxing your character by running dungeons etc, until you got a decked out lvl 60 character (which, more or less, is OOC content given you're not RPing the Warrior of Light himself).Â

Someone else spends all that time Roleplaying fighting sessions and training, his characters OOC level is however 15. He invest however the same amount of time, and possibly even more effort.

So who's the stronger one? The one who's got his shiny Artifact weapon and all dat armor and shiny lvl 60 tag and armor?

Or the guy that chose to RP for 'all' of that equivalent time, roleplaying training sessions, workouts, etc etc.

My moneys on the latter guy.

Counter point: Level 5 char comes up and starts picking a fight.

I'm really interested in how much of a gauge people put the level thing as a measure of investment in the game/not trolling/not GokuSS5Weedlord666 since, above all else, that seems to be how people use it.

And I can't say it's not (at least) somewhat accurate.

Gaspard · **06-29-2015, 03:36 PM**

Not really a counter point.

So what, level 5 character picks a fight? Doesn't matter. If he's playing an apt swordsman, he's playing an apt swordsman. if he's playing a merchant, he's playing a merchant. Level has no relevance on that.

A character is defined by both background and how he was written, not by a number above his games head.

Hammersmith · **06-29-2015, 03:40 PM**

(06-29-2015, 03:36 PM)Gaspard Wrote: Not really a counter point.

So what, level 5 character picks a fight? Doesn't matter. If he's playing an apt swordsman, he's playing an apt swordsman. if he's playing a merchant, he's playing a merchant. Level has no relevance on that.

A character is defined by both background and how he was written, not by a number above his games head.

So your view is every person needs to be taken into equal account regardless of level, lack of level, or action taken with this level/lack of level?

Gaspard · **06-29-2015, 03:43 PM**

To be honest, my view probably isn't the best because I hail from a Roleplaying background where we had very elaborate rules regarding character creation/approval and alot of it was guided by GM's/Admins that oversaw that things remained balanced, no Mary Sue/Gary stu figures arose and that a certain degree of equilibrium and fairness remained. (aswell ofcourse the basic RP rules such as no Godmodding, metagaming, powergaming etc).

But to answer your question;

My View is that I do not assume a Characters proficiency. I find that out through Roleplay, or by inquiring beforehand.

The alternative would be me being a condescending asswipe to anything that's below level 30 because 'lolscrub get level before you get recognized as a trained character'

Hammersmith · **06-29-2015, 03:45 PM**

(06-29-2015, 03:43 PM)Gaspard Wrote: To be honest, my view probably isn't the best because I hail from a Roleplaying background where we had very elaborate rules regarding character creation/approval and alot of it was guided by GM's/Admins that oversaw that things remained balanced, no Mary Sue/Gary stu figures arose and that a certain degree of equilibrium and fairness remained. (aswell ofcourse the basic RP rules such as no Godmodding, metagaming, powergaming etc).

But to answer your question;

My View is that I do not assume a Characters proficiency. I find that out through Roleplay, or by inquiring beforehand.

The alternative would be me being a condescending asswipe to anything that's below level 30 because 'lolscrub get level before you get recognized as a trained character'

Yeah, coming from a char-generation gated background, I can see how that'd be the view and approach. Â It's interesting to see how RP background affects the view on this as well!

Sahja Elahka · **06-29-2015, 04:00 PM**

Stuff like this is the main reason I shy away from "walk up" RP, its not right to force your rules on another person, nor for them to force you to recognize theirs.Â but since they can so widly vary....

Solution, run more RP circles, have admins/storytellers in each circle, help synchronize rules?

Melkire · **06-29-2015, 04:03 PM**

(06-29-2015, 04:00 PM)tfelver Wrote: Stuff like this is the main reason I shy away from "walk up" RP, its not right to force your rules on another person, nor for them to force you to recognize theirs.Â but since they can so widly vary....

Solution, run more RP circles, have admins/storytellers in each circle, help synchronize rules?

*blinks*

What rules? What "force"?

Variance is what we have OoC communication for. Send someone a /tell and ask them what they're up for before diving in, taking the plunge, etc. Unless someone refuses to communicate out-of-character, coordinating with them to either find a middle ground or decide that you're not compatible is fairly easy.

Hammersmith · **06-29-2015, 04:03 PM**

(06-29-2015, 04:00 PM)tfelver Wrote: Stuff like this is the main reason I shy away from "walk up" RP, its not right to force your rules on another person, nor for them to force you to recognize theirs.Â but since they can so widly vary....

Solution, run more RP circles, have admins/storytellers in each circle, help synchronize rules?

This leads dark places, imo. Â For better or worse, the RP community on an MMO is going to be freeform, an extreme example thereof to boot. Â You can and will never be able to get everyone into one bag.

Even if you did, you'd then need a volenteer staff to peer review each and every participant.

In the end: Logistics is your first enemy here, one that you'll never overcome because at no point will SE enforce any "rule" for RP. Â We're lucky to get lore, frankly.

Second you end up against the RPers themselves, who's viewpoints are like a bag of cats. Â Drop a question and each and every one of them will go their own direction with it, sometimes violently, sometimes fantastically. It's part of the fun, it's part of the horror. Learning to deal with both parts of that is part of being an Adult human being.

tldr; It's not feasable, both from a logistics and an actual human involvement stand point.

Sahja Elahka · **06-29-2015, 04:06 PM**

For sure, otherwise someone would have done it already.

But that's my extent to RP, especially with this bag of cats mentality, I can adhere to your rules and interpretations of lore.Â But I try pretty hard not to do walk ups.Â

A big part of this though is my background coming from years of DMing table top roleplaying games.Â As someone mentioned before, kinda interesting to hear the different viewpoints based on background.

Sindrianha · **06-29-2015, 04:07 PM**

I always love seeing this question/discussion in every forum of RP I run into. It shows the vast difference in thought process, experience and measurement depending on a persons background in both MMO's and other role playing environments.

I have learned over the time in the MMO and otherwise environment that it is all about the style you prefer, the ideals you hold and the ones you see as your potential group of Rpers that makes the difference when it comes to this discussion.

I personally agree with the idea of earning your character through RP and accomplishment through a well written and outlined character.

BUT

I also agree that it needs to be EARNED just as much as a level 60 needs to be earned through hours of leveling or so on.

The end all be all in my opinion is not a matter of level or ooc achievement but how have you earned the right to be seen as skilled or accomplished? What background did you establish with PC's/NPC's/History that contributed toward your ability to face down another RPer or RP situation? That I think is the heart of it. EarningÂ your way. And earning your way with multiple parties.

I had a discussion recently with my RP partner about something like this and how the right to claim a powerful character, while acceptable through time, needs to employ self awareness. The self awareness of the player to know and understand that while they may have earned their stripes with RP group company A they might seem novice or foreign to RP group company B and an expectation of immediate fear/respect is an irrational viewpoint. (Think of it as you leave one job in good standing for a new job. You have to prove yourself to your new employer before they will respect/trust you like your old job did.)

That's just my two cents in the matter! Love to read these types of topics.Â Always a wonderful discussion to be had!Â Smile

Sahja Elahka · **06-29-2015, 04:10 PM**

Also for previous question that I almost missed, the rules and force we're talking about here, everyone has their own idea about what it means for a character level to influence character power.Â At the end the best we can do is agree to disagree.

But we've all run into people that have the mentality of "this is what my character can do and you just have to deal with it."Â Hell I used to be one of them

Hammersmith · **06-29-2015, 04:14 PM**

Weighing in on that "background" thing:

I've been through a lot of RP venues, ranging from moderated chats, unmoderated chats, system enforced structures, MMO games as a framework with moderated rules (Small, small venue mind you) and now here on mass population MMO RP.

Ultimately the only thing that's worked for me, through all of these is "Do what's fun, for me". Â In this setting? it means talking before initiating a fight. Â It means rolling with whatever someone says, even if it also means your char rolls their eyes and assumes they're dealing with a drunk or a delusional.

It also means I'm watching the levels, somewhat, because I do have that 'are they vested in this or are they a throw-away with no consequence scenario' eye on it. Â I think consequence is part of the fun of RP and someone who's not going to invest in the game and a char probably needs to tone down the altaholism a bit, or get their feet a bit more as an RPer to play something that isn't quite so high pie in the sky. Â High concepts work, but boy howdy do they take a careful hand, and it's not something I want to see in a n00b walkup because that's deer in the headlights time for me). Â Alternatively someone who just rolls a new level 1 TCHING TCHING assassin/rich father/unbeatable older brother out of the hat whenever they want to deal with something isn't something I want to deal with personally.

In short, a lot of RP background means I look for investment and here, so far, level is only part of that, kind of like what Gaspard said. Â But it IS something of a first blush gauge, and tells me what foot to lead with when exploring with a walkup.

Poll: How important is OOC level/Achievement? You do not have permission to vote in this poll.
Not important at all.	55.56%	60	55.56%
Somewhat important.	37.04%	40	37.04%
Very important.	7.41%	8	7.41%
Total		108 vote(s)	100%

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