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***Teadrinker*** · **10-08-2015, 11:29 AM**

(10-08-2015, 11:11 AM)Mia Moui Wrote: I've been thinking about this a little more and there's a biological situation with Miqo'te that's hard to ignore. Â Unless a female Miqo'te is willing to become monogamous and have mixed-race children (something the lore suggests is very frowned upon), Miqo'te would rapidly become extinct if the precious few males that existed chose to become monogamous.Â

I feel like for both Seekers and Keepers, regardless of how they feel about culture or how integrated they've become, the issue of reproduction and the very limited stock of males would need to be addressed. Â Obviously, one only needs a single male to propagate an entire species. Â Even so, I think that Miqo'te females could be monogamous if they want, but Miqo'te males wouldn't be encouraged to be so. Â

If the birthrate is something like 20 or 30 to 1, monogamy would quickly exhaust the supply of Miqo'te males. Â If something like that were happening in our society, monogamy would seem like an extremely selfish choice, perhaps a choice that's simply not allowed.

But if relationship/romantic monogamy was what was being prized, then it may not matter. Â Reproduction would be more akin to duty, not something that invites romance or long-term relationships. Â This way a Hyur and a Miqo'te could be eternally bonded but if they wanted children, the female would make it known (however Seekers or Keepers let males know they're ready for that). Â This avoids the problem of mixed race offspring (which again, the lore suggests his highly frowned upon).

I know that lots of people play Miqo'te as though they are Hyur with cat ears but the cold fact of their reproductive biology suggests that reproductive monogamy simply isn't feasible. Â I imagine that such a problem would invite all kinds of exciting drama in an otherwise emotionally/romantic monogamous relationship.

The simplest solution is polyamory but that word suggests love and I think that's a little strong. Â Reproductive surrogate might be closer to the role a male Miqo'te would have to play, regardless of their emotional/romantic status.

Mathematically, you are correct.

People aren't going to play that way though and trying to force them to is not a battle you want to undertake.

Since it's been suggested mixed breeds are now possible, even really weird ones that we have UTTERLY no visual base for like Miqo/Aura or Roe/Lala ... It's pretty much taken these kinds of arguments out behind the shed.

Personally, I roll my eyes a little when I see really exotic pregnant couples wandering around but it's not lorebreaking. It makes a whole lot more sense for the females of both tribes to be city cats and not males but that's not gonna stop you from seeing Ul'dah populated with Nunhs.

It's just the way it is. Can't change it and you're not gonna have much fun if you focus on it too much.

SessionZero · **10-08-2015, 12:02 PM**

IIRC, male Miqo'te weren't playable in 1.0 because they were supposed to be exceedingly rare (in lore anyway, mechanically it was probably because lolzMithra) so it was only ever the females that went out to do adventuring and the like. So, adhering strictly to lore, yeah, monogamous relationships don't work.

In reality Miqo'te are the most populous race with catboys probably making up, at the very least, half of that overall percentage, so. At this point trying to justify or argue against anything Miqo'te do with "but it's the lore" is akin to bashing your head against a brick wall to get to the pie on the other side. Could it eventually work? In theory. But you're gonna have massive brain damage and head trauma before you ever get to that point.

***Alothia*** · **10-08-2015, 12:16 PM**

I play a Keeper Miqo'te who is monogamous, and I went the city cat route, mostly because when I started playing in 1.0, we didn't have the depth of lore that we have now.

I've actually worked it into her backstory that it isn't her who shirked the tribe's traditions, but her parents. They wanted to be monogamous, so they left their tribe and integrated into a small village out in the Shroud. It's also why my character doesn't fit the naming conventions.

There's a lot you can do with the lore that will make your characters be the type of characters you want them to be. Be prepared to hear some IC backlash from people who doÂ play traditional characters. But as long as you have a good reasoning, it shouldn't be a problem.

Most players are very understanding. It's their characters that may not be. But that leads to good RP times!

Anywho, if you ever want to talk over ideas, feel free to post here or let me know in a PM or whatever.

Mia Moui · **10-08-2015, 01:07 PM**

(10-08-2015, 11:29 AM)Teadrinker Wrote:
(10-08-2015, 11:11 AM)Mia Moui Wrote: I've been thinking about this a little more and there's a biological situation with Miqo'te that's hard to ignore. Â Unless a female Miqo'te is willing to become monogamous and have mixed-race children (something the lore suggests is very frowned upon), Miqo'te would rapidly become extinct if the precious few males that existed chose to become monogamous.Â

I feel like for both Seekers and Keepers, regardless of how they feel about culture or how integrated they've become, the issue of reproduction and the very limited stock of males would need to be addressed. Â Obviously, one only needs a single male to propagate an entire species. Â Even so, I think that Miqo'te females could be monogamous if they want, but Miqo'te males wouldn't be encouraged to be so. Â

If the birthrate is something like 20 or 30 to 1, monogamy would quickly exhaust the supply of Miqo'te males. Â If something like that were happening in our society, monogamy would seem like an extremely selfish choice, perhaps a choice that's simply not allowed.

But if relationship/romantic monogamy was what was being prized, then it may not matter. Â Reproduction would be more akin to duty, not something that invites romance or long-term relationships. Â This way a Hyur and a Miqo'te could be eternally bonded but if they wanted children, the female would make it known (however Seekers or Keepers let males know they're ready for that). Â This avoids the problem of mixed race offspring (which again, the lore suggests his highly frowned upon).

I know that lots of people play Miqo'te as though they are Hyur with cat ears but the cold fact of their reproductive biology suggests that reproductive monogamy simply isn't feasible. Â I imagine that such a problem would invite all kinds of exciting drama in an otherwise emotionally/romantic monogamous relationship.

The simplest solution is polyamory but that word suggests love and I think that's a little strong. Â Reproductive surrogate might be closer to the role a male Miqo'te would have to play, regardless of their emotional/romantic status.

Mathematically, you are correct.

People aren't going to play that way though and trying to force them to is not a battle you want to undertake.

Since it's been suggested mixed breeds are now possible, even really weird ones that we have UTTERLY no visual base for like Miqo/Aura or Roe/Lala ... It's pretty much taken these kinds of arguments out behind the shed.

Personally, I roll my eyes a little when I see really exotic pregnant couples wandering around but it's not lorebreaking. It makes a whole lot more sense for the females of both tribes to be city cats and not males but that's not gonna stop you from seeing Ul'dah populated with Nunhs.

It's just the way it is. Can't change it and you're not gonna have much fun if you focus on it too much.

Unless the fun comes from trying to stick within the lore as much as possible and choosing to play with others who feel similarly.Â

This isn't about trying to control the RP of others. Â I can't stop people from playing as though they are vampire zombie aliens from another dimension. Â I just wouldn't be likely to play with them, at least not on a IC basis. Â I'll dungeon and raid with anyone, anytime.

But having lurked here for weeks before starting to play the game, it seems like every time something like this comes up, others get on to defend their right or anyone else's right to play how they want. Â The problem is, no one is telling them not to play a certain way. Â It's usually someone asking about how or if one thing can or cannot be done within the lore of the world. Â It's up to the player to decide if they'll go along with it or not. Â No one is taking away someone's freedom or suggesting or demanding that other players should change.

I like the lore. Â I like to play within the confines because it makes me become more creative to do what I want within the limitations. My entire commentary was about what would almost certainly have to be the case if someone WAS going to stick to the lore. Â If a player doesn't want to, go ahead and be the Eorzean version of Batman, I don't care.

I play this game because I like the world, the lore, the characters, the story. Â I like to weave my own story along with it. Â I don't start with my character first. Â I start with the world and try to think about what influence it would have on my character. Then I tell my character's story with those influences in mind. Â Just like real life, my characters are bound to their world, it's history and their own past.

I'm not and would never ask anyone else to do the same.

No Longer Exists · **10-08-2015, 01:45 PM**

Everyone has very good points either on the lore or on the feelings behind the lore. Kudos to you all for that.

That's all I wanted to say, good on ya.

-Hatter

Eses Fafa · **10-08-2015, 02:19 PM**

Monogamy just feels less wrong in general. Miqo'te stories are pretty messed up as it is, but I never played Seeker since Tia's and Nunhs were something I could never RP out by being either, and being part of one of 24 harems is out of the question..especially considering the copious amounts of inbreeding that must make for regardless of swapping females in tribes.

As for my Keeper, I find it better to be in a family rather than a tribe. It'd take a special kind of twisted for me to play a character whose beliefs would make me genuinely sick. So rather than play a member of a reclusive clan, I make a member of the clan that has values that don't make me cringe whenever I play them.

Faye · **10-08-2015, 02:37 PM**

It's fine to role-play concepts that you do not endorse OOC. It doesn't, and shouldn't, reflect on who you are as a person. I'm not saying anyone should force themselves to role-play something that they are legitimately uncomfortable with; just tossing in a reminder that this is all fiction and it's a general rule of RP etiquette to keep a certain distance from your RP characters.

Arrelaine · **10-08-2015, 03:17 PM**

Arry is monogamous solely because she's a complete selfish princess and likes all the attention for herself. Polyamory doesn't fit with her personality, though if she were a Seeker I think her personality and love relationship might play out a bit differently. Her parents weren't monogamous, though her mother became infatuated with her father and only had Arry, since her father rarely came around as he traveled with a merchant caravan. She has at least one half-sister and who knows how many others by her father.

Arry and her mother's side are city kitties, essentially, but her father is more wild kitty.

Val · **10-08-2015, 03:25 PM**

Val is monogamous only because of Faye. Originally, he didn't want to do it at all and fussed and argued with her. But then he realized "Hey I can tell her I'll be monogamous and sleep with her and then bail." Only he then realized he reallyÂ enjoyed having a hot, rich woman to buy him everything he wanted.

That lifestyle doesn't necessarily fit with Seeker culture and I've played Val's manwhore attitude into his past: his tribe punished him often, especially his father, and he was constantly ridiculed for it to the point of being kicked out of his tribe. I've played it that they are to respect their women and not treat them like objects, whereas Val does precisely the opposite.

Anyway, there are ways to make it work. Val still struggles with it from time to time to the point that he gets uncomfortable with being alone with an attractive lady because he doesn't much trust himself. And even if he isn't particularly fond of monogamy, he has to admit the perks that come with hisÂ situation are pretty nice.

SicketySix · **10-08-2015, 03:30 PM**

Let all the Nunhs knock you up, get called a whore.
Become monogamous, criticized for breaking the lore.

*sigh*

You never can win on the internet.

Edgar · **10-08-2015, 03:41 PM**

Monogamy, when it comes to Miqo'te, is always the exception to the rule. Outside the tribes and clans, it's an option, and it's one that typically leans towards Miqo'te that were born in the cities rather than the typical environments.

You're not really breaking the lore as much as you are, say, opting out of the cultural status quo.

Lydia Lightfoot · **10-08-2015, 04:10 PM**

Given that the character pairing has been stated to be an IC imitation of OOC, and it seems unlikely that the situation is malleable depending upon the responses received, I'm unclear as to why the OP is asking for people's opinions.

I'm also unclear why, if the OP and spouse were aware of the possible lore snafu, they didn't just play a different race. Part of the point of RP is to try whenever possible to work within the lore to enrich the setting for everyone involved - to blend into the tapestry as-sewn, to become a part of the living and breathing environment in which one is participating. Willful and blatant disregard for that setting is at best selfish, and at worst can actually be destructive towards the enjoyment of that setting for others.Â

Imagine, for instance, how jarring it would've been if in the middle of Mad Max: Fury Road, one of the women in the caravan jumped up and started assisting in the annihilation of their pursuers by throwing lightning bolts from her hands because, in spite of the setting being one that's at least theoretically grounded in a real-world-became-this basis, her family have been passing on Super Secret Knowledge since the time of Merlin or whatever and so she's totally a sorceress.

That said, people are going to do it anyway. Either they just don't really care about how their deviation from lore might decrease immersion for others, or, they simply don't have an interest in learning the lore, or they have ulterior motives (such as leaking their OOC into their IC). Or they're the kind of person that just loves Dr. Who And Captain Picard Become Lovers fanfics and their creative processes fundamentally function around "how badly can I break settings". But, all of these revolve around the same point, which is that the player doesn't care - so why would they care about others' critiques of their lack of caring?

Reeling this in to the point: If you know you're breaking lore and think people will object to it and that bothers you, then maybe don't do that idea. If it doesn't bother you, then their opinions don't matter anyway and there's no reason to ask for them.

Garalona · **10-08-2015, 04:39 PM**

Two Miqo'te falling in love and deciding to become monogamous, or one Miqo'te deciding they have a one true love and damn the consequences, is hardly comparable to "we're actually Titan and Shiva and we're married" in terms of lore fuckery.

Dang, y'all, please chill. Moogle

Faye · **10-08-2015, 04:41 PM**

(10-08-2015, 04:39 PM)Garalona Wrote: Two Miqo'te falling in love and deciding to become monogamous, or one Miqo'te deciding they have a one true love and damn the consequences, is hardly comparable to "we're actually Titan and Shiva and we're married" in terms of lore fuckery.

Dang, y'all, please chill.

Most people have been supportive, though...? I'm not really sure who needs to chill. I don't get why people see arguments where there are none.

SicketySix · **10-08-2015, 04:46 PM**

(10-08-2015, 04:39 PM)Garalona Wrote: Two Miqo'te falling in love and deciding to become monogamous, or one Miqo'te deciding they have a one true love and damn the consequences, is hardly comparable to "we're actually Titan and Shiva and we're married" in terms of lore fuckery.

Dang, y'all, please chill.:moogle:

Agreed, in fact if we want to be that much of a lore stickler on every little detail then fine.

Get your dragoons back to Ishgard and don't leave.

Dotharls like myself must viciously attack any of the other tribes Au Ra.

Nuhns start banging any female Miqo'te you see. Also 90% have to stop playing because male Miqo'te are rare.

Cross race breeding is severely frowned upon, so break it off with anyone who's not your same race.

Also for those of who who've partook of the eternal bonding ceremony with any race of which did not practise that tradition, sorry, rewind. That's not allowed to happen.

Yeahhh, I thought not.

Sorry for Grammer/spelling mistakes, on my phone, small screen, big fingers.

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Monogamous Miqo'te

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