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Charity322 · **07-24-2016, 07:56 AM**

That's another thing that confuses me. People speak as though the poachers have been a long running pain in the ass, but was it even possible to poach before the elementals were weakened in the Calamity? Originally people couldn't even live there without the elementals' permission; they were that powerful. But can all the bad things in the forest - poachers, Ixal, voidsent, monsters - really have only been around for five years? How powerful were the elementals?

Buscarron makes it clear the first time you meet him that everyone is welcome in his establishment as long as they cause no trouble in there, because everyone needs a place to feel safe and drink. I guess the Couerlclaws/Redbellies respect that.

As for the Couerlclaw King, he sounds pretty evil. Killing a Wood Wailer as an initiation rite is not something that a non evil person makes their followers do.

I wish we had more information.

Valence · **07-24-2016, 10:24 AM**

Yes, before the pact of Gelmorra everything that was basically not ixali was immediately cleansed by the Elementals. However, when the Ixali snapped so bad when elezens and hyurs started to communicate with the Elementals, and got kicked out of the wood, the pact of Gelmorra basically allowed every human race to live there as long as they followed the Elemental's law.Â

And that's the thing. Poachers are humans. As far as the Elementals are concerned, they are the same thing than any other Gridanian. They live there with the permission of the Elementals. If they screw too much with the order of things, then it's the whole pact of Gelmorra that gets threatened. It brings up Greenwraths and all bad things that Gridanians will do almost anything to prevent. That's why Gridanians are so harsh and uncompromising when it comes to apply elemental law (and not just their local laws). They basically flip their shit at the idea that humans eventually break the pact and all hell gets loose and Elementals can't be appeased anymore.

So, before the Calamity, the Elementals were probably a lot quicker to anger and act yes, but at the same time, the Shroud was a lot less under pressure with all those new threats, as you say, like voidsents, poachers, and people breaking the law due to the weakened state of everyone in charge here. So, now that the Calamity has happened, Elementals are probably a lot less almighty there due to their weakened state, but proportionally there is also a whole lot more bad stuff happening with the potential to anger them.

The Coeurlclaw king does pretty despicable things yes. And every City state kills hundreds of beast tribe people every month or so, or are guilty of so much racism and xenophobia that it boggles the mind, and Maelstrom privateers pirate and assault garlean mercantile ships, and Thordan did a lot of bad things too to make his Kingdom safe for his people, and Gaius Van Baelsar was ready to make literal genocides to deal with order and the primal threat, etc.Â

Oh yes, the Coeurlclaw king does a lot of 'evil' things on our moral scale. He also holds a few values that are lot less black. Total freedom, hatred for the Elementals tyranny, protecting all the people that got wronged one way or the other by a society that despise them or decided to toss them aside, even if he does it with very twisted, wicked methods.

You can't just paint him all black like you would with an Ascian/Paragon, but you can surely say that the guy's colour is pretty tainted alright. But one of the central concepts of the FFXIV lore (or FF lore in general) is the opposition between mortals, the people living there, with all their flaws and strengths, and the dark, evil forces that actually play on hubris everytime to make civilizations fall, again and again. Xande was not necessarily evil in himself, Gaius or the Garleans certainly not either with their very strong ideals, or Thordan. They just were made so by Ascian influence.

Charity322 · **07-24-2016, 10:55 AM**

Easier to put everything under a plot spoiler. XD

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Valence · **07-24-2016, 01:44 PM**

The reason of the why, we don't know. I'm not even sure that Hearers themselves get to know precisely why someone gets denied access while another one gets accepted. It is true that it seems to point that to a certain degree Elementals can make a difference between individuals themselves. This is also confirmed by the fact that a greenwrath can be directed at one or a few individuals that pissed off the forest.Â

Problem is though, that if you do that enough you eventually put Elementals in such a frenzy that they start doing really bad things all around, as can be seen in the CNJ/WhM quest as well as the MSQ. And then it suddenly starts to concern everyone and targets everyone without much care.

Why are Coeurlclaws accepted by the Elementals? Well, for once, I think that all of them are initially Gridanian citizens, so they don't come from outside like those mighans. They are directly part of the Pact of Gelmorra by birth.Â

Your question is interesting though in that I always wondered how all those Keepers of the Moon got into the Shroud initially. What did they do exactly not to be targeted by the Elementals as soon as they crossed the Hedgetrees? Since well, they were not exactly part of Gridania/Gelmorra and had nothing to do with it.

As for city states tolerating some beast tribes like the Sylph, yes, definitely. City states are not obtuse to the point of killing them all indiscriminately. The thing is though, that we can see that some like the Sahagin, Amajila and the likes, have clans that are not outwardly hostile. We also learn that some of those actually fight for their own survival, like the Sahagin.Â

We also see in the MSQ that Y'shtola accues Merlwyb and Limsa to have actually perpetuated that genocide against the beast tribes to grab more lands and get rid pragmatically of a threat. She especially tells her that it's not going to be a solution in the long run. Merlwyb just answers that she does what she has to do to defend her people. So yeah, she did stuff that could have been seen outrightly evil, and yet, it was for her people. And if you are not convinced, then just look at the Garleans. They want to get rid of all beast tribes so that they get rid of the primal threat in the first place. Is that evil? Arguably by our standards I can admit, but I would argue also that their reasons are not.Â

Unlike you know. Ascians that just want to see the world burn.

Some qiqirns are allowed into Limsa, or even Ul'dah, but they soon got for example banned out of Ul'dah because they were competing with local merchants. Again, that's an example of scale of grey in my opinion. Of course, you can arguably put some of them lower or higher on the scale of evil vs right, like you would any character between righteous and evil in any tabletop. But I don't subscribe to painting people and factions in broad strokes of black and white, because that's not what is presented by the story.Â

Garleans started it all? Sure. They got into Silvertears Falls and battled Midgardsomr until the Agrius exploded and liberated so much aether from that point (Silverfall being the bridge between aetheral place and the real one), that primals suddenly became a reality. Did they intend to do that though? I don't think so. They weren't even expecting to fight Dravanians here.Â

Okay, I won't go into details on Thordan since you have not done that part yet. But keep in mind that he is probably the best example of what I'm trying to say. People like Xande might have been rotten to the core initially so that they were easy to corrupt for Ascians, Thordan however, is a whole different story. Or even Gaius. Was Gaius for a total genocide of all the beast tribes when they started summoning primals all around? Sure. Was Gaius opposed to project Meteor lead by his own people? Sure too.

LiadansWhisper · **07-24-2016, 02:40 PM**

My understanding is that the poachers aren't necessarily accepted by the pact, but they are subject to the pact, since they are within the Hedge. So they didn't agree to follow the pact, but what they do can cause things like a Greenwrath (which those who do follow the pact can be affected by).

As to why the Ala Mhigans weren't accepted in Quarrymill, we can either take the Hearer's word for it (e.g. "The Elementals said there is too much hatred in his heart"), or we can note that the same Hearer gives us some completely spurious leve quests to destroy Gelmorran ruins that a pair of Duskwights have come into the area to explore. Note that the same type of ruins exist all over the Twelveswood, and it's only here that, somehow the Elementals are offended.

Then note that nothing in lore, quest text, or anything else says that Hearers must be honest or benevolent.

Charity322 · **07-27-2016, 04:22 AM**

Yeah, just realised that it is only Limsa where I've seen Qiqirn and Goblin merchants in the city (and some scaly things in the tax line at Mealvaan's Gate). Other cities they're all outside the city itself.

I kind of wondered how the Keepers of the Moon fit into the whole pact thing too. A lot of them were specifically mentioned as not being part of Gridania, yet they obviously have not been kicked out of the Shroud by the elementals.

As for the Garleans, all they seem to be interested in is taking over other lands and forcing them to accept their rule and their ways. They didn't like the Primals because they were competition.

That makes me think about the Hearers' gifts too. I remember E-Sumi-Yan saying that Sylphie inherited hers from her mother, so it doesn't appear as if people are judged by the elementals and then given the gift. It seems to be a natural talent that anyone might have, so I guess you could have bad Hearers who use it for their own gain. Maybe before the Calamity the elementals gave those kind of Hearers a kick up the arse lol.

Valence · **07-27-2016, 06:23 AM**

I'm probably going to nitpick a bit but the Garleans work a lot like the Roman Empire. They do not necessarily conquer land to impose their ways. They conquer to bring order and peace, as mentionned countless times by Baelsar for example. Well at least, that's the official ideal of course. The mileage may vary depending on the person, as for everything. Bad apples everywhere and all that.

In any case, they grab new lands, but don't impose that much actually. Especially the less problematic and confrontational the conquered nation proves to be. They get to keep their own laws, rules, culture and governors as long as it doesn't directly conflict with imperial rule above. Garleans are not that much interest into telling people what to do and how to live their lives. What they are interested in is that everyone make their share of duty for the whole Empire itself, working toward civilization and order.Â

The Garlean Empire is more or less thriving to follow what the Allagan Empire was. A strong, unparalleled rule of Mankind United if you will.

The primals are not really competition for them but just the ultimate direct threat. When they launched their fleet above Mor Dhona and got into battle with Midgardsomr and his brood, the fall of the Agrius and the resulting explosion broke the seal of the allagan prison here where all the primals were bound (a bit like Bahamut in the artificial moon Dalamud).

The garleans were not prepared for this and as far as I know it was the first time they witnessed primal power. That's where they suddenly shifted their priorities to their pure and total annihilation. As Baelsar said it, they associated the willingness of Eorzeans not to deal with the source of the problem as they saw it: the beast tribes that continuously keep summoning those primals.

If you put yourself in their shoes, you have a neighbor that keep say, building up unsafe nuclear plants at your border and keep blowing them up, you are probably going to seriously be pissed at them and take them as a threat. If they don't want to hear you and admit they have a problem of grave safety to be dealt with, you are probably going to eventually want to kick them down.Â

Well that's the same thing with garleans. Eorzeans don't want to deal with their beast tribes that continue to summon extremely potent, unpredictable and dangerous weapons (primals). Garleans, being a bit extreme in all they do, then considered eorzeans as traitors and beast tribe protectors. Thus, condoning primals essentially, so they deemed eorzeans as part of the threat themselves. Â That's basically what Baelsar tells the Warrior of Light when he gets totally baffled that the WoL is actually talking with beast tribes.

It is, of course, hypocritical of garleans since they are after all at the origin of why the primals got free of their allagan prison. It gets even more ironic as the garleans basically gave unconsciously the means for beast tribes to oppose their eorzean oppressors by summoning those primals.

The Hearer gift is twofold: you can like Sylphie be a natural at it, and then train to understand it and not just Hear, but you can also not be a natural at it like most conjurers, and work hand in hand with nature and elementals to eventually be able, maybe, someday, to Hear like a newborn natural would.

Bad apples among Hearers is probably a thing, like in any job or milieu really. If you dont want to get caught, then you have to be careful and good at tricking your peers. And I bet that in the case of Hearers, you would have to trick padjals, which is no small feat.

But at the same time, once you get above that (since padjals are few and scarse), you basically get a free pass to make up whatever you want since well, you are the only one to Hear anyway, so who cares if you tell lies? The trick is just not to make up any shit too big for any other conjurer or Hearer to notice that you are just being a little shit...

And also, the Elementals probably don't care if you make up shit. They will just start caring if it disturbs the balance of the Wood. But if you say "That mighan family is NOT approved by the Elementals" because you are a racist asshole of a Hearer, why would Elementals even care? Human problems. Racism is not even a thing among Elementals. They wouldn't even be able to say it's racism anyway, they wouldn't know the concept.

LiadansWhisper · **07-27-2016, 08:29 PM**

(07-27-2016, 04:22 AM)Charity322 Wrote: Yeah, just realised that it is only Limsa where I've seen Qiqirn and Goblin merchants in the city (and some scaly things in the tax line at Mealvaan's Gate). Other cities they're all outside the city itself.

Historically, the Amalja'a(sp?) were permitted in Ul'dah, and traded with its citizens, but something happened (Sounsyy probably has the details) that caused the treaty between Ul'dah and the Amalja'a to be broken and you no longer see them there.

Quote:I kind of wondered how the Keepers of the Moon fit into the whole pact thing too. A lot of them were specifically mentioned as not being part of Gridania, yet they obviously have not been kicked out of the Shroud by the elementals.

I don't think you necessarily have to be a part of Gridania to be a part of the pact, but in the case of the Keepers, the Elementals don't seem to necessarily be able to differentiate between Gridanians and outsiders in the forest. You have to do something to incur their irritation or anger to get their attention, most of the time.

Quote:They didn't like the Primals because they were competition.

They don't like the Primals for the same reason everyone else doesn't like Primals - Primals destroy the land by their very existence.

Quote:That makes me think about the Hearers' gifts too. I remember E-Sumi-Yan saying that Sylphie inherited hers from her mother, so it doesn't appear as if people are judged by the elementals and then given the gift. It seems to be a natural talent that anyone might have, so I guess you could have bad Hearers who use it for their own gain. Maybe before the Calamity the elementals gave those kind of Hearers a kick up the arse lol.

There's no indication that the Elementals have any sort of control over who is born with the "gift" of being able to Hear. The first mentions appear to indicate that the ability came about sometime during or after the Gelmorrans were taught Conjury by the Moogles, so it's possible that it's related to Conjury itself. Every Padjal is a Hearer, but not every Hearer is a Padjal, so perhaps it was a stepping stone? Either way, it does appear to be an inherited trait, and we most often see it in Hyur and Elezen, but there's nothing to say that a Miqo'te or Lalafell couldn't be born with the ability. It's just very unlikely.

(07-27-2016, 06:23 AM)Valence Wrote: The Hearer gift is twofold: you can like Sylphie be a natural at it, and then train to understand it and not just Hear, but you can also not be a natural at it like most conjurers, and work hand in hand with nature and elementals to eventually be able, maybe, someday, to Hear like a newborn natural would.

I can't recall any quest text that indicates that someone can train into the ability. It seems to be inherited, and is said to be very rare. That the Warrior of Light is able to Hear Elementals at certain points (mostly in 1.0 it seems) seems to be probably related to their gift with the Echo, which provides you with the ability to speak any language (including, it would seem, "Elemental").

I just haven't seen anything to back Hearers being anything but born. They have to train to refine their abilities, but if people who weren't born with the gift could just train to become a Hearer, there would be a lot more Hearers and they are apparently quite rare. Not as rare as Padjal, but far rarer than Conjurers in general.

Quote:Bad apples among Hearers is probably a thing, like in any job or milieu really. If you dont want to get caught, then you have to be careful and good at tricking your peers. And I bet that in the case of Hearers, you would have to trick padjals, which is no small feat.

I don't see why you'd have to trick your peers. Hearers don't seem to be assigned in groups - we only ever really see one at a time. If no one else in your group can Hear, then who is going to know you're lying through your teeth? The Townsfolk revere Hearers almost as much as Padjal, and aren't going to gainsay them, and the Elementals don't know that you're lying because they apparently can't understand mortal speech anymore than most people can understand Elemental speech.

Quote:But at the same time, once you get above that (since padjals are few and scarse), you basically get a free pass to make up whatever you want since well, you are the only one to Hear anyway, so who cares if you tell lies? The trick is just not to make up any shit too big for any other conjurer or Hearer to notice that you are just being a little shit...

It would be very difficult for a Conjurer to a) detect that the Hearer was lying and, b) more importantly, prove that the Hearer was lying, since the average Conjurer can't Hear and wouldn't have any way of knowing that the Hearer in question was lying through their teeth. As far as tricking other Hearers, since they don't seem to ever really be given assignments in groups, outside of a very few instances, I would imagine it doesn't come up a lot unless someone complains to another Hearer. Even then, who would the Hearer believe? The other Hearer, who they trust, or some random dude?

Quote:And also, the Elementals probably don't care if you make up shit. They will just start caring if it disturbs the balance of the Wood. But if you say "That mighan family is NOT approved by the Elementals" because you are a racist asshole of a Hearer, why would Elementals even care? Human problems. Racism is not even a thing among Elementals. They wouldn't even be able to say it's racism anyway, they wouldn't know the concept.

They wouldn't know you were lying in the first place because they can't understand mortal speech. That's the entire point of Hearers existing.

Valence · **07-28-2016, 06:18 AM**

On conjurers training enough to become Hearers,Â thisÂ seems to hint pretty strongly in favor of it I believe.

I believe when you are a Hearer and start telling people shit because you can, it would be a bit disingenuous to think that for some reason, people, especially other Hearers and padjals, would never notice that weird Hearer saying all sorts of weird biased stuff all around eventually.Â That's really not putting much weight on their actual cunning and wisdom.

Thus, you have to be cautious of what you say and how obvious it would be for others, especially your peers, to see that you are full of shit. It is true that acting often on your own without a padjal or two to check on your back at every second sure helps, but still... Also, nothing says that because we see a Hearer in Quarrymill distributing dubious leves alone, that Hearers ALWAYS act alone. I'm sure they talk to each other like anybody else, but heh, who knows, I don't recall any precise lorebit telling that they always act alone or in groups.

Charity322 · **07-28-2016, 06:42 AM**

I'm pretty sure I remember E-Sumi-Yan telling my Conjurer that Hearing wasn't something that could be taught. You either had the gift or you didn't.

The thing is, that Hearer at Quarrymill who was saying that the elementals had rejected the Ala Mhigans makes it sound as if the elementals approve everyone who wants to live in the Shroud. Maybe since the Calamity things like the Ixal have got in because the elementals are weak, but the Keepers predate the Calamity so unless the Hearer is lying then they must have been accepted at some point. And if the Hearer is lying then she really should have been busted by now because she's lying about stuff that anyone can ask around about and get a different answer on.

Valence · **07-28-2016, 08:58 AM**

That's a good point but the main issue where it remains extremely vague is when did Mooncats exactly came to the Twelveswood in the first place. Was it before Gelmorans did their pact with the Elementals, and then had some pact of their own with the Elementals (improbable)? Was it after?

LiadansWhisper · **07-28-2016, 11:44 AM**

I thought the Miquo'te migration was relatively recent in Eorzea's history? I know they weren't around for Amdapor, but I can't remember when exactly they showed up.

Melkire · **07-28-2016, 12:30 PM**

(07-28-2016, 11:44 AM)LiadansWhisper Wrote: I thought the Miquo'te migration was relatively recent in Eorzea's history? I know they weren't around for Amdapor, but I can't remember when exactly they showed up.

They're only recent arrivals in Eorzea compared to four of the other races that comprise the Sons of Man (Elezen, Lalafell, Roegadyn, Hyur). They've still been around for hundreds if not thousands of years. The exact figure/approximarion escapes me.

Au Ra are now the most recent arrivals, if you discount the warrior from which Odin originated. And the above statement re: Miqo'te doesn't take into account any of the other Spoken (Qiqirn, Moogles, beast tribes, etc.).

Charity322 · **07-28-2016, 12:34 PM**

Apparently it was the 5th Umbral Era during the Age of Endless Frost when the seas froze over.

Valence · **07-28-2016, 03:29 PM**

Well, we know that the mi'qote migrated to Aldenard after the Calamity that froze the seas, which happened in the 5th Umbral Era, which means, just before the rise of Mhach, Amdapor and Nym in the following 5th Astral Era.Â They came over from Meracydia (approx 1500 years ago).Â

It is also said that the most recent migratory arrival besides the Aura was actually the Hyur, in 3 waves taking place over the 6 Astral Era if I'm not mistaken (approx 500 years ago). It is also during that time that Gelmorra strived under the Shroud. So technically, Keeper of the Moons got there first, but the real question is though, did they got access to the Shroud before and during Gelmorra already (which is not mentioned anywhere), or did they only get access to the Shroud once the Pact of Gelmorra took place?

Also, while there was those 3 hyur invasions in the 6th Era, it doesn't mean that there was never any Hyur there in some of the previous eras, since well... Allag at least was mostly a Hyur thing and covered most of the planet or so. Hyurs just happened to disappear in the following eras to reappear in the Sixth.

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[Discussion] Couerlclaws

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