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Yssen · **04-18-2013, 05:52 PM**

I do not disagree, but the wiki already has sections in existence (the literature section, for instance) for NPC information to be posted in. The issue that was voted on was "Would you use individual pages for your storyline NPCs." The outcome basically used to determine whether NPCs would qualify to have their own individual character pages, just like PCs. The decision Deirdre has made is that NPCs will not be granted such rights. This does not mean that you cannot post up information about NPCs in the wiki, that is not at all what she has said. She has just said that it will not be done in a specific format/section of the wiki.

I guess what I am asking here is simply, what is it that people are losing exactly in terms of ability to post content on the wiki by her making this decision? Why is it important to have NPCs listed like PCs when we have the ability to simply utilize another section?

-Yssen

Deirdre · **04-18-2013, 06:18 PM**

Fine, I'm really done with dealing with all of this.

I put it to a vote like asked, stuck with my own personal opinion, and now that there is arguments after the vote came back to a no is beyond ridiculous. This is not a feature we had before, this is not something we require now especially with the difficult, tedious work already put in to organize it.

I'm washing my hands of this, if someone wants to implement it, by all means. Enough is enough.

Enjoy.

Eva · **04-18-2013, 06:45 PM**

I'm a little bit confused about where this intensity came from? I think the posts above were just in disagreement, but everyone here seems to be speaking in good faith. I don't really see this as an argument, or a big deal.

When I initially made the suggestion, I thought that some sort of a mechanism to feature more prominent NPC's (that may be linked from multiple characters' pages) from player stories made a lot of sense. I did not want to see these names appear as playing characters, but I also didn't want to have to include a lot of information about a prominent NPC within a spoiler tag. It seems to me that accommodations for this sort of thing could easily have been made with relative transpancy to most wiki users.

That is why I fail to understand the arguments posted against this because I would actually think most would find it preferable to have information about a distinctly separate character appear in a distinctly separate space, thus giving the reader the option not to click it if it doesn't suit their interests - and a handful of people have already commented that they don't care about these characters anyway. So logically it seemed like a win-win.

If the agreed-upon decision is not to include such a thing than I (and perhaps 10 others) will have to make alternative arrangements (for my case, probably a link to a very similar page off the wiki) but I will admit that it seemed like a wiki encompassing all things relating to RP should include provisions for that. I was only trying to offer what felt like a helpful suggestion. As I said on the poll thread I was not trying to diminish the work Deirdre has put into the wiki already and I'm sorry if she/others feel that way. The changes are good and I know myself and many others appreciate the dedication she has shown to it. Thank you!

Aysun · **04-18-2013, 06:58 PM**

It came down to adding a category because Deirdre did not want "floating" pages around for the NPCs, Eva because she'd just got rid of all of them.

I removed my post because it probably did seem more attacky than it needed to be when the point was pretty much what others were saying. The vote did not come back no, you decided that it wasn't enough to make it a yes. That's the problem I have with the whole thing. What Blade and Kylin have both said both sum up why 30% should be plenty to allow people to make NPC pages, even if the category itself doesn't exist and they are floating.

Yssen · **04-18-2013, 07:53 PM**

None of this answers why the relevant NPC information could not be placed under an existing section (such as Literature). The reasons against floating pages were from a largely organizational and coding stand point. They were made by the individual who is largely responsible for building the new wiki for this community. That individual polled the community, and the majority opinion came out not in favor of changing the status quo. A decision was made that the suggested changes would not be worth implementing. Simply put, the minority would have to deal with the status quo because that is majority opinion.

What transpired afterward was people making a case for why the minority opinion should be implemented anyway. The result is that a major contributor to the community has decided to no longer contribute. Frankly, after reading some of these posts, I do not blame her in the slightest for her decision. Why volunteer your time and energy if people are just going to question your decisions with out directly contributing. This is all just the situation as it currently.Â

That being said, the actual important question has yet to be answered. As I stated above, I have yet to see any case made for why the wiki hampers people from posting content about NPCs under an existing section, or why it is important that NPCs have their own floating pages. I suggest that we answer or discuss these questions first, before this situation progresses farther.

- Yssen

Blade · **04-18-2013, 08:07 PM**

(04-18-2013, 07:53 PM)Yssen Wrote: That individual polled the community, and the majority opinion came out not in favor of changing the status quo. A decision was made that the suggested changes would not be worth implementing. Simply put, the minority would have to deal with the status quo because that is majority opinion.

Please go back and read the poll, and what it was polling. The question that it was asking was, word for word, "In regards to making separate pages for your NPC's on the wiki, it comes down to, would you do it?" This was not a poll of "should we do this or not." It was to gauge the use. The poll was not pulling majority opinion, yay or nay, towards the idea. It was would you maintain pages for it, yes/no. Deirdre even clarified it herself when she wrote in the poll, that if "If you want to vote 'Maybe' please vote No or do not vote at all. We want to gauge how many people are actually wanting to use this idea."

It was not a poll for/against the idea. It was not a poll of opinion. It was not a poll of should we change it. Please go back and read the poll.

That being said, I don't think it was the intent of anyone to make Deirdre feel bad. We all know she has put a lot of time and work into this wiki. I don't think anyone is discounting that or that anyone is ungrateful to her.

Aysun · **04-18-2013, 08:08 PM**

The pages would be not allowed at all, Yssen. We couldn't place them in Literature, or any other relevant category such as Player Characters, because they would not fit in according to Deir's guidelines she posted (because they're alts/NPCs). Nor can we create a category because it was voted down. We couldn't let them be floating because she didn't want anymore floating pages. If you would read what Eva said, you'd understand why she would rather have an actual page than use a massive spoiler tag to hide the text on her current wiki, as well. Sorry if you misunderstood that part.

It has been expressed many times how much we appreciate the work she put in the wiki. But we should allow people (even if they're a minority) to use the wiki to make their RP experience better, not hinder it.

Ellie · **04-18-2013, 08:30 PM**

Yssen, I think you may be misunderstanding what the poll said. It didn't ask who was for or against adding Player NPC pages, it asked who would make use of them. It's not the same as asking if people whether they're for or against it.

I'm trying to understand all sides of this myself, because I know what it's like when people want to change something you worked really hard to make, but I also don't want to feel like I have to clutter my character page with my NPC's life story before I get to why she's relevant to my character.

For now, this is only making people angry and turning us against each other. I really don't want that. Having a separate page for my NPCs isn't important enough to me that I'm willing to contribute to the divisiveness over it. So please, everyone, let's just...

At the very least until we can figure out a solution that's fair for everyone.

Noelle · **04-18-2013, 08:37 PM**

<pic removed for inappropriateness>

I for one would not want individual pages for NPCs in the RPC wiki.
Any amount of thought put into how the old wiki ended up as it was should give you some hints as to why, at least in my oppinion, it's a terrible idea.
With every game launch, a large number of players learn that the game is not for them, which is fine.
With the launch of XIV, many of the RPC members found this for themsleves (and I too would have left if the RPC wasn't around back then), and left the game and these very forums.
But what was left behind was numerous wiki pages, many little more than stubs, some the very bare-bones template that was handed out.
Now imagine this but with the addition of NPC pages. It could very easily and quickly go way out of hand, with creative but short-lived players making perhaps a dozen or more sheets for their characters associates, only to leave them abandoned or unfinished. I hope you can see what I mean with this atleast, even if my example isn't entirely clear...

You can now chime in, saying "Oh, we'll just delete unused pages." or "We can set a minimum requirement!" or something, but it's obviously not that simple right? Who gets to determine when this happens, or what the specific rules about this would be? Maybe we could hold a poll on that, and then swiftly ignore the results because they don't suit you.

[sub]Also: Removing the majority of your wiki page because of a little disagreement. Sure is mod material in here.[/sub]

Xenedra · **04-18-2013, 08:39 PM**

I believe that regardless of how the poll was phrased, the purpose was to see if an overwhelming group was interested in having a new category. You can ask "do you like sandwiches" to confirm that you should make sandwiches for a picnic without saying specifically "Should I make sandwiches for the picnic." If we can, let's try and ignore that tiny detail, it's not really important.

The poll was requested, it didn't have to go up, but it did, and the results came back that a section will not be added. I understand being disappointed that this section won't go up, but there are plenty of ways to deal with it rather than fighting what was supposed to be a peaceful decision. In fact, here's some ideas:

1) Yes, maybe some people don't like them, but spoiler tags. Many people in the poll majority stated, though, that they prefer to read everything about a character and their alts/NPCs on one page. We all want people to read all the goodies we put on our wiki. We spent a lot of time on them! Why not make it easier to view in one neat little box?

2) Outside links. If you want your character related NPC to have their own page, make it OUTSIDE the wiki. And link to it off of your page Big Grin

! It keeps the wiki uncluttered like the majority wants and still gives the minority their separate pages. Those that want can click out of the wiki and those that don't can go "Oh, they have a character named BLAH" and move on!

3) Just make an open section on your wiki, forget spoiler tags! I personally don't mind GIANTLY LONG wiki pages! That's what the index thingy is for! If I want to read about your NPCs, I will click your index link for it! Honestly, I think this is the best route, screw the concept of "wiki bloat." It gives me a quick, easy, one-click way to link directly to your NPCs if I want to read about them.

I'd REALLY like to see helpful suggestions on this post from this point on, rather than this back and forth on whether 30% is enough to warrant more pages. The decision, the FINAL decision, based on the requested poll is that, no, there will not be a section like PCs and NPCs added. Let's try and come up with some other way of making each other happy, rather than trying to sway people away from a decision that's already been made.

Kylin · **04-18-2013, 08:44 PM**

I'm starting to see a couple of personal attacks now....knock it off people. Disagreement and debate is fine. Personal attacks are not.

Aysun · **04-18-2013, 08:51 PM**

Fact checks are needed...

The point of the wiki is so we don't have to use outside links. It is for the community to use, is it not?

The decision was based on a poll that asked if we would use it, not if we approved of it, and it was said specifically that we were to vote as such, not interpret it differently.

Eva is also not a moderator on the RPC.

Deirdre · **04-18-2013, 08:52 PM**

No one complained about the wording of the poll when I posted it...

Aysun · **04-18-2013, 08:53 PM**

Several people said that if it was worded differently they would have voted in favor.

Mtoto Wamoto · **04-18-2013, 08:57 PM**

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RPC has moved! These pages have been kept for historical purposes