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Eva · **06-25-2014, 10:34 AM**

Good question. I'm WHM main so probably somewhat biased, but the only other job I play with any regularity is DRG, and in those cases I think I'd prefer good healer and bad tank. I think there's a lot more potential for a healer with his/her head on a swivel to get a party out of some tough situations than a tank doing the same. Not to trivialize the benefits of having an awesome tank.

I've been put into some rather odd situations myself as a healer. One that comes to mind is main tanking the flayer and golems in Amdapor Keep as a WHM after the tank d/c'd - back when AK was new and still a little tricky and everyone was i60-70.

That leaves me to think about situations and how things might go if one or the other disconnected and left the rest of the group to fend for themselves. Obviously the content and party makeup would be important variables, but I feel like the group would have more of a fighting chance with a healer and no tank as opposed to the opposite.

One thing I will add is that - having done some roulettes as WHM with excellent tanks and lousy DPS - no amount of skill/gear with regard to both healing and tanking can offset the impact on a party from terrible DPS. I can stretch my MP pool pretty far and I work pretty well in tandem with tanks' cooldowns, but if DPS isn't melting things down fast enough it can also wipe a run. I have a lot of admiration for skilled DPS and feel they don't get as much recognition as they deserve.

K'nahli · **06-25-2014, 10:41 AM**

On a related note to the above post, I like healers that actually contribute to the DPS instead of just sitting there, waiting for the tank's health to go down far enough to warrant a heal. I do roulettes with my friend most days and it really does make a massive difference when she introduces a few Holys to large groups/bosses - especially if I get Requiem up in time. It has stretched a bit to the point that, the seldom time I do dungeon alone, I silently glare and moan at the random healers that decide their massive MP pool is too precious to spare some dps of their own for with small groups that aren't really challenging the tank =w=

Eva · **06-25-2014, 11:04 AM**

(06-25-2014, 10:41 AM)K Wrote: On a related note to the above post, I like healers that actually contribute to the DPS instead of just sitting there, waiting for the tank's health to go down far enough to warrant a heal. I do roulettes with my friend most days and it really does make a massive difference when she introduces a few Holys to large groups/bosses - especially if I get Requiem up in time. It has stretched a bit to the point that, the seldom time I do dungeon alone, I silently glare and moan at the random healers that decide their massive MP pool is too precious to spare some dps of their own for with small groups that aren't really challenging the tank =w=

Oh I agree with this 110%. If the tank is doing a good job and there's big pulls I'll slap DS+Regen on him or her and put up Cleric Stance and drop Holy to help with the DPS. And if there's small pulls I'll slap the Aero spells on each of the mobs and sometimes spam Stone2 instead. A pet-peeve of mine when I'm on other jobs is WHMs that spam Holy when there are only 2-3 mobs. I'm sure someone out there has calculated where the cutoff in terms of MP efficiency and effectiveness is with regard to # of mobs and such.

I stance dance a lot with Cleric Stance on WHM. And I've had people before try to correct me because they thought I was doling out cures from Cleric Stance - which is seldom the case. But they see that icon and assume, y'know?

Anywho yeah, any healer that contributes towards DPS and is still able to keep the party alive and well usually earns my commendation when I'm on DRG.

FreelanceWizard · **06-25-2014, 11:10 AM**

(06-25-2014, 10:41 AM)Knahli Wrote: On a related note to the above post, I like healers that actually contribute to the DPS instead of just sitting there, waiting for the tank's health to go down far enough to warrant a heal.

Seconded! For content where I don't need maximum healing per second, as SCH, I always keep my DoTs up and spread. As WHM, I usually switch between the tank and the current target after each spell, alternating between healing and doing damage. If the content is particularly unchallenging (both the tank and I are synced down from 50), I'll Cleric Stance dance to do more damage. As SCH, I usually let Eos/Selene heal and sit in Cleric Stance the whole time. Smile

I took the Conjurer class quest where you have to both heal and DPS to heart. Smile

On the topic of AE efficiency, my understanding is that 4+ mobs is when AE becomes more efficient than single-target DPS. I could be wrong on that, however, and Flare makes things all kinds of weird because of how its MP cost works.

Gar · **06-25-2014, 11:34 AM**

First, to the whole "Healer DPS" thing, I'm going to advocate more of the other side. I'm a full-time tank, and I have died because the healer chose to DPS then couldn't get me back up. (This is due to big pulls, I don't have crappy gear or anything) The most common I see is "Oh, I'll Holy until they're low then use Benediction." Dead.

On a lot of pulls, yes, tanks take little damage and throwing in DPS is fine and hey makes it go a little quicker. But at the end of the day, DPS is not the healer's job. If I have PUG healers that don't DPS, its usually because they're still learning. This game has become needlessly hostile to people actually learning their roles who have the audacity to run without a full pre-made party.

Not that I'm against healers ever throwing in DPS, I just don't really care how much they do it or not.

But, back to the question of the original post, I can't really decide since the fights are so varied. Like people have said, some early dungeons you can get away with not having a tank. But you can do the same without a healer. Our healer d/c'd and I BLM Physick'd us through the dungeon. A lot of content can be out geared and out skilled without having to fit into the trinity.

I think I would have to go with tank, though. The sole purpose being that I find it easier to invest in healers and teach them how to heal more efficiently. Healing isn't easier than tanking, or vice versa. In my experience it just seems harder to teach someone this game's aggro mechanics. I am constantly explaining to newer tanks that Provoke isn't an enmity boost that can be used alone, but most healers get the basic concept of their abilities even if they're bad.

So tank, but barely.

K'nahli · **06-25-2014, 11:44 AM**

(06-25-2014, 11:34 AM)Garryson Wrote: First, to the whole "Healer DPS" thing, I'm going to advocate more of the other side. I'm a full-time tank, and I have died because the healer chose to DPS then couldn't get me back up. (This is due to big pulls, I don't have crappy gear or anything) The most common I see is "Oh, I'll Holy until they're low then use Benediction." Dead.

On a lot of pulls, yes, tanks take little damage and throwing in DPS is fine and hey makes it go a little quicker. But at the end of the day, DPS is not the healer's job. If I have PUG healers that don't DPS, its usually because they're still learning. This game has become needlessly hostile to people actually learning their roles who have the audacity to run without a full pre-made party.

Not that I'm against healers ever throwing in DPS, I just don't really care how much they do it or not.

But, back to the question of the original post, I can't really decide since the fights are so varied. Like people have said, some early dungeons you can get away with not having a tank. But you can do the same without a healer. Our healer d/c'd and I BLM Physick'd us through the dungeon. A lot of content can be out geared and out skilled without having to fit into the trinity.

I think I would have to go with tank, though. The sole purpose being that I find it easier to invest in healers and teach them how to heal more efficiently. Healing isn't easier than tanking, or vice versa. In my experience it just seems harder to teach someone this game's aggro mechanics. I am constantly explaining to newer tanks that Provoke isn't an enmity boost that can be used alone, but most healers get the basic concept of their abilities even if they're bad.

So tank, but barely.

That's why I said "silently"Â ^^ ;Â Â I wouldn't dare comment on that and tell someone what to do. I am very shy in that respect. I don't even like to bother random people with unnecessary macros and sound effects. If someone is new and learning the role and that is fine but perhaps I came off a lot worse than how I intended. There is a sole example that still lingers in my head of a well-geared healer just jumping on the spot over and over and then casting a heal on me every ten or so seconds and that is the image I always return to when I think of healers not helping with DPS.

I don't expect them to, especially if they are uncomfortable with it, but I mean if they are clearly well experienced and have nothing better to be doing(i.e a tank that isn't being challenged) then I don't see why they wouldn't. Unless they were half afk then it seems like a boring concept in fact.

Perhaps I am guilty of immediately defaulting to the idea that someone isn't new if they don't announce it right away at the beginning of a dungeon but its not something I would bring up directly unless it was for the player's own benefit. I remember tanking a dungeon before and some black mage was pulling every single group and it started to annoy me a little. I said nothing in the end but I was getting more and more agitated though at some point the thought returned to me about my first Copperbell run, where a tank scolded me for attacking a group first. Being that FF was my first real MMO of this kind I had no idea about the enimity/trinity aspect and how difficult it was for them and thought that I was merely helping pick them up from a distance.

Eva · **06-25-2014, 11:54 AM**

(06-25-2014, 11:10 AM)FreelanceWizard Wrote: On the topic of AE efficiency, my understanding is that 4+ mobs is when AE becomes more efficient than single-target DPS. I could be wrong on that, however, and Flare makes things all kinds of weird because of how its MP cost works.

I think this varies depending on the spell/ability and TP cost. I recall reading some threads awhile back about DRG and at what point it's better to use the AoE abilities on multiple targets rather than plowing through them one by one (and a discussion of the effectiveness of Doom Spike). In any case, I think each job is a bit different in where the point lies that single-target DPS actions are no longer as effective/efficient as multi-target. BLM's MP pool is arguably much more expansive as a result of the ice aspect status (I do not confess to being an expert at BLM at all) so I think there's less qualms about burning through MP to cast Flare. I usually wait for at least 4-5 mobs before casting Holy though, figuring it's cumbersome to keep Aero on that many, but 3 is pretty easily manageable (would love it if we got something one day to extend the duration of the Aero spells, make them more potent, or something like ACN's Bane that transmits them to nearby mobs without having to recast multiple times).

Basic rule of thumb for me on WHM is ABC though - "Always Be Casting". If not buffs, heals, then stacking DoTs, then nuking. I think the only times I ever break from this policy are where it seems like the MP pool might hit 0 for whatever reason and I know that cures are absolutely going to be needed, but even then I'm usually doling them out.

I totally agree that there's nothing as noisome as a healer with a full MP pool that casts regen and just stands there when they could be nuking.

Eva · **06-25-2014, 12:03 PM**

(06-25-2014, 11:34 AM)Garryson Wrote: First, to the whole "Healer DPS" thing, I'm going to advocate more of the other side. I'm a full-time tank, and I have died because the healer chose to DPS then couldn't get me back up. (This is due to big pulls, I don't have crappy gear or anything) The most common I see is "Oh, I'll Holy until they're low then use Benediction." Dead.

Oh I've witnessed this happen too when I'm on DPS. With larger pulls this is far less viable and depending on the party makeup when I am healing I often won't nuke at all if there is that risk. I usually get a good sense of things from the first pull. I confess I'll let the tank's HP drop a fair bit [when there are smaller pulls] but I've learned what they can endure and a lot of times a single DS+Cure2 is enough to just about top them up again.

That's not really the way Bene should be used though. At least, not imo.

You are absolutely right though. Nuking should be a secondary thing and a healer's eyes should always be on the party HP first and foremost.

K'nahli · **06-25-2014, 12:07 PM**

(06-25-2014, 12:03 PM)Eva Wrote: You are absolutely right though. Â Nuking should be a secondary thing and a healer's eyes should always be on the party HP first and foremost.

*nods sheepishly in agreement*

FreelanceWizard · **06-25-2014, 12:16 PM**

Yep! Healing is always the primary job. I like to think my strategy is the same as Eva's -- get a feel for what's going on and adapt accordingly. One of the things I like best about playing a healer is the level of situational awareness and adaptation required. "ABC" sums it up, I think. Smile

"A. B. C. A, Always. B, Be. C, Casting. First prize is a trip to Costa del Sol. Second prize is a Darklight ring. Third prize, you're dead." Smile

Kage · **06-25-2014, 12:20 PM**

I have no idea how DRG works but I've had one DRG I respect tell me that the more mobs pulled, the better and more efficient it is for them to kill in things like a Brayflox HM run.

I've seen Titan HM runs where the entire run falls apart because the healer just can't keep it up while all the dps just... are... average or below average players. >.<; A good tank does you no real good if the healer(s) can't keep them up through even tumults. I can't tell you how many Trials roulettes I got into in Titan HM where I actually died to Tumults because the healers were a little subpar... and the dps were a little subpar as well so it just made the fights longer and the tumults hit harder. My PLD ego just drops when I die to tumults. T_T;

I will say though I've had a few Titan HM runs where the tank or either of the tanks just... can't keep hate. I'm not sure if it's because WARs just have -that- hard of a time keeping Titan's hate but a running Titan is not a fun Titan. Especially when you're a glass cannon like BLM is. Glassy yo.

It does sometimes annoy me to see a healer who has a large MP pool and just sits there waiting for a tank to take damage instead of doing something like a few DoTs, aeros, or stones. But I don't begrudge them when it's pretty obvious that they're more worried about healing than just keeping people topped off and making the run as efficient and expedient as can be.

...I also don't begrudge SCH who just go on /follow through the low levels. If they can do DoTs and others that'd be wonderful but at the low levels I just don't expect much. Healers' main job is to heal and to do others is just extra bacon on the gravy.

Oscare · **06-25-2014, 12:25 PM**

I feel like a healer's role is the most simple, yet the most depended on in raids and parties. Firstly, healers do not have a rotation.Â This already makes their role a little easier to grasp, they just need to look at the situation, look at their resources, and make the most effective judgement to keep the party alive. Of course, there are don'ts in being a healer, such as White Mage, please do not keep spamming Cure III unless the target really desperately needs it. @_@ It's really not necessary and it just ends up being an MP sink. I concur with Eva and Freelance, the healer is supposed to adapt and be aware of the situation, unlike tanks and DPS who are more focused on being aware on their positioning and debuffs and DoTs.Â

Secondly, if anyone ever expects you to DPS as a healer, punch them in the face. Or, do /slap one we get that. Because that is BY far the DUMBEST thing any healer can do. DPS. Unless there is a period of low/calm damage (example would be in Sunken Temple of Qarn, second boss. After you break his soulstone, he can't deal damage. That's when a healer can DPS), then the healer shouldn't be DPSing. That'll just lead to an MP sink, you won't be able to heal, and then a wipe. Not a smart move.

EDIT: Okay, I forgot to include Holy. Holy is very good for cleaning out adds, but the primary focus should still be healing, then wait for a calm period of damage to DPS/Holy.

Sounsyy · **06-25-2014, 12:29 PM**

(06-25-2014, 11:34 AM)Garryson Wrote: First, to the whole "Healer DPS" thing, I'm going to advocate more of the other side. I'm a full-time tank, and I have died because the healer chose to DPS then couldn't get me back up. (This is due to big pulls, I don't have crappy gear or anything) The most common I see is "Oh, I'll Holy until they're low then use Benediction." Dead.

Again, I'm tank and healer, and as a Healer I've been guilty of letting a tank die once or twice because I was DPSing. It happens, just like tanks forgetting Oath/Defiance. But in my experience spamming expert roulettes for animus and novus, I notice those tanks who drop during sac pulls are almost always the tanks that don't buff. They'll throw out maybe a convalescence and they're done. Liiiiiiike, really? Gimme a rampart or a vengeance or something to work with here.

Granted, during sac pulls, the healer's priority is stabilizing your tank. For SCH this is usually Rouse + Adlo. Just by doing that it gives me enough time to get off a Swiftcast Shadowflare and Miasma II on the whole sac pull. When there's a few less mobs out I can swap to Cleric and do my full DoT rotation and bane it around.

But I politely disagree. I think DPS is actually a part of the Healers job, just as Enmity and Mitigation and DPS is a part of a tank's. 10/23 of your SCH skills are DPS skills and 7/22 for WHM. You shouldn't be ignoring an average 40% of your skill list, since its a good portion of your job. By adding to your Party's overall DPS output on small groups, bosses, and sac pulls, you hasten kill times which equals less damage that your tank/party ends up taking. The longer that sac pull takes to kill, the more likely your tank is going to go down and you're going to run out of MP. This is of course within reason, if you don't think you can keep your tank up and do DPS, don't DPS until it's safe. But to me, a healer who never DPSes is like a tank who never uses buffs.

K'nahli · **06-25-2014, 12:48 PM**

(06-25-2014, 12:20 PM)ExKage Wrote: A good tank does you no real good if the healer(s) can't keep them up through even tumults.

True! But a good healer does you no real good if the tank doesn't understand where to position himself and that Spiny plumes are not to be ignored, haha.

cuideag · **06-25-2014, 12:49 PM**

I think I'd take the good tank, someone who can a) hold aggro!, b) play their class and know how to manage cooldowns etc to help out the "bad healer", c) know the dungeons/encounters and be able to lead their groups accordingly. I main a Monk but I also play 50 Warrior and 50 Scholar so it's pretty easy to see that every role has something that they have to bring to the table. It's probably one of the things I like the most about this game: while it's definitely possible to carry folks through some content, there's plenty others where everyone has to be on the ball or else things probably aren't going to go well.

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