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LiadansWhisper · **07-28-2016, 08:11 PM**

(07-28-2016, 06:18 AM)Valence Wrote: On conjurers training enough to become Hearers,Â thisÂ seems to hint pretty strongly in favor of it I believe.

See, I just don't read it that way. But that just means it's ambiguous - could go either way, although I read it as the people already had the gift as a prerequisite to be trained.

Quote:I believe when you are a Hearer and start telling people shit because you can, it would be a bit disingenuous to think that for some reason, people, especially other Hearers and padjals, would never notice that weird Hearer saying all sorts of weird biased stuff all around eventually.Â That's really not putting much weight on their actual cunning and wisdom.

Why are you assuming that the corrupt Hearer in question wouldn't be cunning about it? I wasn't saying they wouldn't have to be cunning, I was merely pointing out that the odds are stacked in favor of the biased Hearer getting away with it - note that the Hearer in Quarrymill is displaying a widely-held prejudice, and this probably helps her get away with what she's doing.

Quote:Thus, you have to be cautious of what you say and how obvious it would be for others, especially your peers, to see that you are full of shit. It is true that acting often on your own without a padjal or two to check on your back at every second sure helps, but still... Also, nothing says that because we see a Hearer in Quarrymill distributing dubious leves alone, that Hearers ALWAYS act alone. I'm sure they talk to each other like anybody else, but heh, who knows, I don't recall any precise lorebit telling that they always act alone or in groups.

I can't recall a single instance of seeing more than one Hearer outside of the Stillglade Fane itself. Can anyone else? I could be wrong, but every instance of a Hearer appearing that I can recall, they've been by themselves with a contingent of other Conjurers/Wood Wailers. This is probably due to the relative rarity of Hearers - think of how massive the Wood is, and how few, in comparison, Hearers there are. Even counting in the Padjal, they're all likely stretched rather thin.

(07-28-2016, 03:29 PM)Valence Wrote: Allag at least was mostly a Hyur thing and covered most of the planet or so. Hyurs just happened to disappear in the following eras to reappear in the Sixth.

Are we even sure the Allag were actually Hyur? I mean, I know they look like Hyur, but so do Pureblood Garleans...and they're not Hyur.

Edited to add: Re: Corrupt Hearers: If everyone around you is super racist, or has reasons to hate whatever nationality you are (in the case of the Ala Mhigans, who are hated because of the Autumn War), and you're lying about the Elementals agreeing with said racism/hatred, then most likely, the racist people around you are going to go along with it. Because it fits their view of the world.

Valence · **07-29-2016, 03:34 AM**

Sure, it could be ambiguous. I still would love to have Sounssy's opinion on the matter and what they wrote though. There might be more behind those two quotes.

LiadansWhisper Wrote:Why are you assuming that the corrupt Hearer in question wouldn't be cunning about it? I wasn't saying they wouldn't have to be cunning, I was merely pointing out that the odds are stacked in favor of the biased Hearer getting away with it - note that the Hearer in Quarrymill is displaying a widely-held prejudice, and this probably helps her get away with what she's doing.

I'm assuming nothing. I actually said that kind of Hearer was going to be crafty about it if they wanted to get away with it... Odds stacked in their favor or not. You seem only to base yourself on the widespread prejudices around them in the commonfolk, especially geared toward the Autumn Wars, but the people they would have to convinced or be cautious of is not the commonfolk that will just follow whatever they say out of reverence.Â

It's the damn Padjals. As I said, it would be a bit disingenuous to think that padjals can't see through a crooked Hearer, especially after some time of abuses and exploits.

LiadansWhispers Wrote:Edited to add: Re: Corrupt Hearers: If everyone around you is super racist, or has reasons to hate whatever nationality you are (in the case of the Ala Mhigans, who are hated because of the Autumn War), and you're lying about the Elementals agreeing with said racism/hatred, then most likely, the racist people around you are going to go along with it. Because it fits their view of the world.

Again, padjals. I'm not saying padjals don't necessarily have prejudices. I'm saying they would probably get mad at anyone even trying to lie their way out of what they Hear about the Elementals will.

LiadansWhisper Wrote:I can't recall a single instance of seeing more than one Hearer outside of the Stillglade Fane itself. Can anyone else? I could be wrong, but every instance of a Hearer appearing that I can recall, they've been by themselves with a contingent of other Conjurers/Wood Wailers. This is probably due to the relative rarity of Hearers - think of how massive the Wood is, and how few, in comparison, Hearers there are. Even counting in the Padjal, they're all likely stretched rather thin.[/font][/color]

Well, I think that's a logical fallacy to assume that the few instances of Hearers we see ingame (that's what? One? Two of them?) necessarily equates to all of them always acting alone and being alone. That was my point.

I don't see why like any other entity holding any power they would not you know, speak to each other, debate and discuss their plans, and especially discuss about what they Heared to compare their interpretations and all.

Quote:Are we even sure the Allag were actually Hyur? I mean, I know they look like Hyur, but so do Pureblood Garleans...and they're not Hyur.

It's possible yeah. It's also possible they had many others races we don't see ingame.

In any case yeah, just to say that for all those point I guess we can't have a true answer... At least until we get our hands on their lorebook they spoke about :p

Charity322 · **07-29-2016, 07:00 AM**

In one of the later Conjury quests they send three Hearers together to cleanse a major source of corruption. It's the one where Sylphie gets her knickers in a knot about it and runs off to stop them.

They're the three Hearers who taught you the basics of Earth, Wind and Water in the earlier quests. Nolanel, Wulfiue and Joacin.

LiadansWhisper · **07-29-2016, 07:50 AM**

Quote:In any case yeah, just to say that for all those point I guess we can't have a true answer... At least until we get our hands on their lorebook they spoke about :p

So, Blizzard released a Warcraft Lore book a while back.

First in a series, mind.

It answered a lot of questions....and created at least as many questions that weren't explained. Laugh

I'm totally waiting for SE to do the same thing! Laugh

LiadansWhisper · **07-29-2016, 07:52 AM**

(07-29-2016, 07:00 AM)Charity322 Wrote: In one of the later Conjury quests they send three Hearers together to cleanse a major source of corruption. It's the one where Sylphie gets her knickers in a knot about it and runs off to stop them.

They're the three Hearers who taught you the basics of Earth, Wind and Water in the earlier quests. Nolanel, Wulfiue and Joacin.

I had been under the impression that they were not all Hearers, but it's been a long while since I played the quest. Though, it would make sense to send multiple Hearers for really serious thinga that one couldn't handle alone.

Thanks for mentioning it!

Charity322 · **07-29-2016, 08:16 AM**

At least Nolanel and Wulfiue are mentioned as Hearers in their individual quest descriptions. Joacin isn't specifically that I can see but in the quest here it talks about the 'party of Hearers'. http://ffxiv.consolegameswiki.com/wiki/L...e_Daughter

LiadansWhisper · **07-29-2016, 09:59 PM**

(07-29-2016, 03:34 AM)Valence Wrote: Sure, it could be ambiguous. I still would love to have Sounssy's opinion on the matter and what they wrote though. There might be more behind those two quotes.

I lit the fire but I suspect she's busy with RL because I've not heard back!

Quote:I'm assuming nothing. I actually said that kind of Hearer was going to be crafty about it if they wanted to get away with it... Odds stacked in their favor or not. You seem only to base yourself on the widespread prejudices around them in the commonfolk, especially geared toward the Autumn Wars, but the people they would have to convinced or be cautious of is not the commonfolk that will just follow whatever they say out of reverence.

It's the damn Padjals. As I said, it would be a bit disingenuous to think that padjals can't see through a crooked Hearer, especially after some time of abuses and exploits.

The vast majority of Padjal that exist aren't in villages or towns - they walk the forest, and don't necessarily come into contact with anyone. The Padjal we see in Gridania are the exception, rather than the rule. In fact, before becoming the Elder Seedseer, Kan-E-Senna spent most of her life completely isolated from Gridanians at large - when she returned to take up the mantle, no one knew who the hell she was. They didn't know who she was because she, like most Padjal, rarely spent time in settled places, and are most often in the wood communing with the Elementals. And there aren't very many of them in the first place, so not only are the majority mucking around in the woods, the majority don't amount to very many at all.

So the odds of them just happening across such a situation are slim, unless the Hearer in question slips up and actually manages to anger the Elementals with what they're doing.

There are very, very few checks and balances on Padjal and Hearers. They have immense social status and trust in a society where their only limiters are few in number and unlikely to be direct witnesses to whatever transpires. There are very few checks and balances on Conjurers (specifically ones working in Gridania under the auspices of the Stillglade Fane) in general. It's one of the most fundamentally frightening things about Gridania as a society - their society works, and is fair and benevolent...if everyone involved is trying to do the right thing and has the best interests of those around them in mind. But only if.

Quote:Again, padjals. I'm not saying padjals don't necessarily have prejudices. I'm saying they would probably get mad at anyone even trying to lie their way out of what they Hear about the Elementals will.

Why would they suspect the Hearer in question? If the Hearer pulls this in front of a Padjal, that's a really stupid Hearer and probably never should have made it through training. Again, the vast majority of Padjal just aren't around to witness these situations. They're in the forest, trying to keep the Elementals from eating everyone, and trying to protect the Hedge. They're not in villages, in towns, and there is such trust accorded to both Padjal and Hearers that unless there is truly blatant evidence to the contrary, I think it would be unlikely for a Padjal to disbelieve a Hearer's word in the first place. Why would they double check, unless the Hearer was (again) stupid and either pulled that shit in front of them where the Padjal could Hear what was actually said, or unless the instructions the Hearer related to the Padjal were so off-base that it was obvious something wasn't right.

Even if someone managed to find a Padjal to complain to, and the Padjal checked up on the Hearer, all the Hearer would have to do is say, "Oh, that's not what I meant at all. Sigh. I should have explained it better." Or, "That's not what I said at all. Sigh. They never understand us properly. I'll go fix it."

LiadansWhisper Wrote:Well, I think that's a logical fallacy to assume that the few instances of Hearers we see ingame (that's what? One? Two of them?) necessarily equates to all of them always acting alone and being alone. That was my point.

I'm not sure why. Charity pointed out the one instance where we see multiple Hearers dispatched together, and it's a situation where there's basically about to be a Greenwrath, which one Hearer alone would be unlikely to stop. So, I agree that in big situations, there would probably be more than one, but that does not eliminate the likelihood of a Hearer in an isolated village running the place like a fiefdom. It doesn't mean that corrupt Hearers can't exist, or even thrive.

Quote:I don't see why like any other entity holding any power they would not you know, speak to each other, debate and discuss their plans, and especially discuss about what they Heared to compare their interpretations and all.

And I don't see why a corrupt or dishonest Hearer would tell the truth at one of these meetings, if they do occur.

Edited to Add: I would have replied earlier but I just got back to my computer, and it's impossible to edit anything on my phone and it drives me nuts. ._.

Valence · **07-30-2016, 04:16 AM**

Well, I guess we are deep into the field of speculation and I don't necessarily all your theories as truth, to be honest. Maybe they are, and they probably are in some cases. I just can't see that as a generality though.

Edit:Â

To clarify a bit, I hear your points but I feel that you are not hearing mine. I said at the very beginning that Hearers can probably get away with a lot of things indeed. Ultimately I'm not taking the opposite position, and I hope that's not what I made transpire above. I just think both cases can be made, that it's easy and at the same time really tricky to get away with that kind of shit as a Hearer. That there is indeed few checks in the gridanian society and at the same time, it's also a society Â where padjals (especially seedseers) and Hearers are all but fools. That there is probably a lot of Hearers acting alone, but that doesn't means they never talk to each other or discuss things to coordinate or compare their interpretations.

What I'm saying is that it's right in the realm of personal interpretation and I see every point here as being arguably correct as far as the lore we are given to work with is concerned. I don't think it's possible to paint generalities out of that.

Charity322 · **07-30-2016, 06:33 AM**

Would the elementals tattle on a corrupt Hearer? They must know if what they said is being lied about and they can communicate with the Padjals. But then I guess I'm presuming that Hearing is similar to the Echo and allows them to read each other's minds.

LiadansWhisper · **07-30-2016, 11:44 AM**

(07-30-2016, 06:33 AM)Charity322 Wrote: Would the elementals tattle on a corrupt Hearer? They must know if what they said is being lied about and they can communicate with the Padjals. But then I guess I'm presuming that Hearing is similar to the Echo and allows them to read each other's minds.

Elementals cannot understand mortal speech any more than a non-Hearer can understand Elemental speech. That's the entire point of Hearers existing in the first place. So how would they know what the Hearers are telling mortals in mortal language?

Valence · **07-30-2016, 12:53 PM**

As long as it doesn't hurt the forest in some way anyway, I doubt that Elemental would care, or even understand human concepts like that. That's what seemed to be implied in... what quest was it already?

Kilieit · **07-30-2016, 01:30 PM**

I got no sources on any of what I'm about to say, I'm afraid, though I'm sure you could find things to support parts of it from the CNJ chain and that one 3.0 quest that heavily involves the Elementals. Just my instincts from what I've seen in the game of the Elementals and my 10 years of experience RPing druids and shaman in WoW. >< Sorry.

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S'imba · **07-30-2016, 03:45 PM**

Well how much are poachers actually hurting the forest? Based on the gang's fortress they are more part of the forest than living with the forest. Gridanians are far more invasive than the poachers themselves. I think keepers in general would be more tolerated for that reason. They don't build large wood structures, they use the very minimum they need. Despite the fact that they are straight up bad in the end they probably end up benefitting the forest more than harming it like that damn Gridania, with their botanists and crafters.

LiadansWhisper · **07-30-2016, 04:54 PM**

(07-30-2016, 01:30 PM)Kilieit Wrote: I got no sources on any of what I'm about to say, I'm afraid, though I'm sure you could find things to support parts of it from the CNJ chain and that one 3.0 quest that heavily involves the Elementals. Just my instincts from what I've seen in the game of the Elementals and my 10 years of experience RPing druids and shaman in WoW. >< Sorry.

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SpeculationThe Elementals might understand the concept of deception, but I doubt they'd view it as Always Wrong or anything.

They wouldn't understand what words a mortal was saying while they were lying to another mortal, or even probably most of the implications about said lie. They would understand the deceptive intent in the mortal's heart. They might reject them as a result. They might not.

If the mortal was trying to be deceptive towards an Elemental, they'd be ratted out in a second.

It doesn't seem possible to... explain things to Elementals, I guess? They perceive your existence by looking directly at your aether and what it's doing, how it's resonating, what aether you're similar or different from. I can only assume that things like thoughts and emotions represent fluctuations in aether that an Elemental could read. That's probably how they judge whether they like you or not.

(If there's malice in your heart, they probably don't. If they DID reject the Ala Mhigan refugees - I'm not saying they did, I'm saying if they did - then this is probably why; how is an Elemental supposed to tell the difference between malice towards the forest, and malice towards the Garleans? All they see is "aggression towards the environment". It's not possible to differentiate if that "environment" is the physical environment of the Twelveswood, or the bad political environment that the Garleans created.)

(What's my reasoning for this? Well, we know Elementals can't really differentiate between different individuals with similar aether. And they say woodsin is accumulated even living outside of the Twelveswood. It's about what's in your heart, not the actual effects of what you do - if you live with disregard for the environment, then the elementals are going to perceive that. You know what you did, sort of thing. If you live "the Twelveswood way" but in Thanalan or Vylbrand, then you probably won't have accumulated much woodsin by the time you return... but if you live the Thanalan way in Thanalan, then return to the Twelveswood, you probably want a cleansing ritual [which demonstrates regret and respect] on your return.)

So uh, which is to say... it's not like the Elementals would hear you say "the Elementals want this" and go "no, that's not true" and roflstomp you. The Elementals would perceive your intentions. So if your intention was to protect the forest, they'd probably be okay, even if the thing you were saying as a result was "these refugees are evil and aren't allowed here". If your intention was to further your personal agenda, it'd depend on other factors as to what their reaction would be. And if your intention was to bring harm to the forest, even if your words or actions seemed otherwise to a mortal... the Elementals would see through you in an instant.

They're probably not so keen on "if I do X, it'll hurt the forest temporarily, but in the long run it'll bring about Y" either. All they'll perceive is your lack of inhibition towards hurting the forest.

Where do the gangs like the Coeurlclaws fit into this? Well, first of all, most of them have popped up after the Calamity, when the Elementals are weakened anyway. Greenwrath is nowhere near as common or deadly as it used to be - as one NPC put it, "it's Gridania's turn to protect the forest", after years of the forest protecting Gridania. (Trying to invade the Twelveswood was like trying to invade Russia in the winter, but with greenwrath instead of snowstorms.)

Second of all... I mean, we talked before about how the Coeurlclaws set aside their scraps with the Redbellies and potentially with the loosely-Gridania-aligned Buscarron in order to protect the forest, right? Well, there you go. Yes, they poach. But that's a mortal law, enforced by Gridania, with - yes - the intention of protecting the forest. As a general rule, it probably works okay; most people, most of the time, poach because they don't care about the forest, and allowing them to do so would invoke greenwrath like anything else. If they have pure intentions, most of the time, they'll apply for a hunting license and process the skins through the Leatherworkers' Guild, all on the up-and-up.

You think Elementals directly differentiate between licensed hunters and illegal poachers?

No, they don't.

Elementals don't care about laws. At all. What they care about is: who are you, and why are you doing what you are doing, right now? And I'm wondering if, by a combination of the weakening of the Elementals in general and the poachers not actually intending to harm the Twelveswood but instead to participate in its ecosystem, it's no longer enough to prompt greenwrath?

Non-Spoken predators hunt their prey in the Twelveswood without invoking greenwrath every time. Because their intention isn't to hurt the wood. It's to play their role within it. They hunt and kill and eat and breed and die. The Elementals don't seem to have an issue with this. Maybe the Coeurlclaws and company are slipping in under the wire, as it were, with similar intentions. They just want to live free in the wood and survive. Grow their pack, have their babies, pass along their home to their offspring. They're not poaching for profit or to take things away from the wood and send them somewhere else. They want the wood to be okay. Because it's their home!

Even if Gridania's laws are not capable of seeing the difference, the Elementals would be able to, especially when weakened and with more important things to expend their energy on rejecting.

You really have to do away with the notion that specific words, actions, and reasons are important. It's all about emotions to an Elemental.

Please bear in mind that it's stated in multiple quests that Elementals simply cannot understand the speech of mortals anymore than mortals can understand the speech of Elementals. Hearers (and, by extension, Padjal) bridge this gap because they are capable of communicating with the Elementals, while naturally being able to understand and communicate with other mortals as well. They're the translators.

The Elementals have also been shown to lack care for the intent of mortals who draw their interest or provoke their anger. Again, they are still wholly unable to communicate with a regular person with anything other than violent response. We are two sides speaking entirely different langauges, in a situation where even body language doesn't translate.

It doesn't matter if your intentions are good. You could have the best intentions in the world, but if you do something the Elementals aren't okay with, they're still going to try to kill you...and everyone around you, probably.

Edit Insert: Which is not to say that I don't agree with a lot of what you're saying, because I believe a lot of it is probably true (though we may never get confirmation one way or the other). That's why I was pointing at the Hearer in Quarrymill in the first place. There's evidence in quests that she may very well be acting based on her own prejudices and not on the explicit Will of the Wood. It's entirely possible that the issues with the poachers in general are more a result of Gridania not feeling the forest can support both (remember, Gridania is living a subsistence lifestyle, with excess being returned to the Forest), and with their xenophobic tendencies in general rather than with anything specific the Elementals have stated about the poachers.

@Simba: That's a good question. I think they're tolerated by the Elementals as long as they don't step over the line. The issue is, the rest of Gridania is trying to regulate how many animals are being killed, etc, and the poachers don't care for those regulations. Yet, by over hunting, the poachers could spark a greenwrath, which would hurt everyone. Most of the intolerance ultimately seems to lie with the Gridanians themselves, and we all know how xenophobic they are.

@Valence: I'm totally digesting your longer post. They make me think so I have to "digest" them, as it were. Smile

Kilieit · **07-30-2016, 05:13 PM**

(07-30-2016, 04:54 PM)LiadansWhisper Wrote: Please bear in mind that it's stated in multiple quests that Elementals simply cannot understand the speech of mortals anymore than mortals can understand the speech of Elementals. Hearers (and, by extension, Padjal) bridge this gap because they are capable of communicating with the Elementals, while naturally being able to understand and communicate with other mortals as well. They're the translators.

The Elementals have also been shown to lack care for the intent of mortals who draw their interest or provoke their anger. Again, they are still wholly unable to communicate with a regular person with anything other than violent response. We are two sides speaking entirely different langauges, in a situation where even body language doesn't translate.

It doesn't matter if your intentions are good. You could have the best intentions in the world, but if you do something the Elementals aren't okay with, they're still going to try to kill you...and everyone around you, probably.

Yeah. I know. Like I said before:

Quote:It doesnâ€™t seem possible toâ€¦ explain things to Elementals, I guess? They perceive your existence by looking directly at your aether and what itâ€™s doing, how itâ€™s resonating, what aether youâ€™re similar or different from.

To elaborate: We know this manner of perceiving things causes severe problems in mortals who employ it. And looking directly at your aether now isn't a good way of understanding what you want for the future, what you're going to do next week, or your more complex thought patterns and opinions - it's just the only way the Elementals have. So of course it's necessary to employ translation skills in order to foster any kind of understanding.

Quote:Theyâ€™re probably not so keen on â€œif I do X, itâ€™ll hurt the forest temporarily, but in the long run itâ€™ll bring about Yâ€ either. All theyâ€™ll perceive is your lack of inhibition towards hurting the forest.

To elaborate: The way Elementals would perceive "intent" isn't the same way we, as humans who think of our more complex thoughts as being part of ourselves, perceive it. They perceive what you are doing, right now, and the intentions behind it. If your intention is "damage the forest", they don't see as far as "...so I can save it from greater damage later" before getting mad. They're aether-readers, not mind-readers. (I know that's a difficult differentiation to make lol.)

Quote:We know Elementals canâ€™t really differentiate between different individuals with similar aether.

In other words: people with similar personalities, similar goals, the same heritage (possibly out to and including being of the same race), who spend a lot of time in the same place as each other...

Now I kind of want to see a story about a Qestir who, on arriving in Eorzea, learns that they are a Hearer. That'd be interesting.

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