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Dimona · **02-06-2015, 12:05 AM**

To clarify my earlier situation, it was Wanderer's Palace HM - there was no risk of death.Â I'm a NIN, the other DPS was BRD.Â I understand WoD last fight is weird because people do fluky things.Â I knew going into theÂ Mamool Ja boss fightÂ that, unless there wasÂ some sort of weirdness... I was going to be the one kicking off the LB when it popped.

I just don't need some healer or tank spamming the chat the moment LB2 pops and getting irate because I'm dodging telegraphs.Â It literally took about 6 seconds after the LB2 popped and I swear this SCH was having a fit that I didn't do it like, immediately.

I'm all for communication and that, but when it's clear-cut what my responsibility is... I don't mind the friendly nudge after a few seconds have passed.Â Sure, maybe I was busy doing my DPS things and didn't see the bar... I get it.Â And maybe he go out of some runs where lame DPS didn't even use LB or such...Â But there was just a spammy rudeness to this jerk-wad that was really not needed and it bugs me anyway when people say to melee LB like... really?Â You want me to hurt the boss?!Â Naw!!!

The past couple days have made me a little spiteful about some things.

Next rant:Â the next time a white mage thinks they're helping things by using that water spell to fling a [full HP] mob [that the tank clearly has hate on] a mile backwards away from the rest of the action...Â Angry

Â

As a lowly DPS I've learned to just keep my mouth shut about it because I am obviously far less important and more expendable.Â I just rant to myÂ friends and come and post here.

FreelanceWizard · **02-06-2015, 01:07 AM**

(02-06-2015, 12:05 AM)Dimona Wrote: As a lowly DPS I've learned to just keep my mouth shut about it because I am obviously far less important and more expendable.

Pft, maybe from a "replace in DF" standpoint, but the DPS are critical members of the team. Slow/poor DPS wipes groups and raids (hi, first boss of WoD, every DPS check in Coil or, well, ever), and good DPS can:

Solo some bosses (the Chimera in Cutter's Cry comes to mind) if everyone else bites it.
Heal the tank through the entire fight if the healer bites it (Fenrir in Snowcloak, Chimera, several other "dodgy" bosses)
Tank mobs or a boss if necessary while the tank is getting back up.
Not die to mechanics, keeping the fight fast and clean with finesse.

Every role is valuable, and people who don't value one because it's common can get bent. Tongue

(Frankly, I think the "DPS are a dime a dozen" comes in many ways from the laziness created by overgearing; really good DPS end up being hard to distinguish. But I've already said my piece on that topic. Smile

)

Telluride · **02-06-2015, 01:32 AM**

(02-05-2015, 09:29 PM)Enteris Wrote: I played XI and enjoyed it. However, I don't want to submit myself or anyone else to that hell again.

"Don't have a particular piece of gear? Pfft, get the hell out of my party!" Yeah, no thanks.

If you ever played Guild Wars I after a couple of the expansions...

"Obsidian Tank only, pls"

Steel Wolf · **02-06-2015, 09:57 AM**

Couple of stories, here. And I know this is not something to whine or brag about, but...sharing the WTF is what this thread is about, non?

So another day, another WoD run. Yesterday proved to be fruitless drop-wise. This night, I get my Fending gloves to drop!

...and the boss after that drops the Fending helmet. >.>

Though it's not as bad as an FCmate who had a Dragoon in the party win a belt....only to see the chest, legs and boots drop over the course of the same run. Or another FCmate run WoD ten times in a row and see not a thing drop.

Feast or famine, man...RNGesus is a mean bitch.

Warren Castille · **02-06-2015, 10:09 AM**

I actually don't begrudge anyone who gets their WoD drop and immediately peace's out. It's hard enough finding a piece you want (9? gears times 5 slots times 4 bosses equals 1/180 chance of seeing what you want specifically!) and as someone who hates "wasting" drops I'd much rather cycle people in to stop things from flooring. Not to mention, lotting a less-wanted piece only to immediately see the thing you wanted right after is the worst feeling. Double bonus bad if it floors.

Gegenji · **02-06-2015, 10:44 AM**

Which is worse, though? The item you desire not dropping at all... or it actually appearing and you lose it to some dead weight you were carrying? Bonus points if it takes forever and a day for that same item to drop again.

I am speaking on... some level of experience on this. While the guy I tanked with in Moggle Mog wasn't complete dead weight like I've seen around... the fact still remains that he ended up rolling against me on the very first Mogblade I saw drop (and quite early on in my attempts to obtain one). His winning it was what set into motion the obnoxious chain of Mog-grinding that followed before a second one finally had the decency to drop for me. After I had seen at least one of every other Moogle weapon (including three or four of certain ones - in the case of the axe and bow).

... At least if I level any other of Chachan's combat classes to 50, I'll have a mogweapon ready and waiting the moment they reach that cap. Dodgy

Warren Castille · **02-06-2015, 11:26 AM**

That's pretty brutal. I've been there, though: Back when Dragon Soul was the final raid in Warcraft, I found myself in a static of like-minded individuals who were more than happy to play together primarily, succeeding second. I didn't mind trying to help them learn the ropes because they had pretty good attitudes, but...

Their warlock. They were just awful. Played Affliction, but treated it like Demo. Didn't know how to manage dots. Didn't know how to make anything work. I tried as nicely as I could to explain how to do better, cited my excellent warlock buddy for tips, did everything I could to help! We spent hours and hours wiping to Hagara because people kept getting clipped by the moving ice wall. Long enough to reset trash once, nearly twice. We FINALLY downed her after grueling hours and...

Warlock won both tier tokens that dropped that week.

Warlock informs the raid that next week she'll be switching to her alt. Walked out with two tier tokens on her "main" she wouldn't ever be using and switched to a so-bad-it-can't-queue-LFR-healer.

I left shortly after that for other reasons, but that on stuck in my mind. Doing 1/3 the damage of the rest of the DPS wasn't because of gear, it was because of a lack of know-how.

Argh, now my blood's all angried up.

Kage · **02-06-2015, 11:35 AM**

Whenever Chachan's mentioned in the same posts as Mogweapons I think of Soushin Sen and specifically this. http://kamen-lalafell-ffxiv.tumblr.com/p...-i-finally

Also I fucking love sentai.

HENSHIN

Gegenji · **02-06-2015, 11:40 AM**

(02-06-2015, 11:35 AM)Kage Wrote: Whenever Chachan's mentioned in the same posts as Mogweapons I think of Soushin Sen Â and specifically this. http://kamen-lalafell-ffxiv.tumblr.com/p...-i-finally

Also I fucking love sentai.

HENSHIN

... I need to get a closer look at some of his outfits.

I already have my white and red rabbit sets, and my own black sheep... and my behemoth paladin. Perhaps I will be inspired for yet more costumes.

Kage · **02-06-2015, 05:34 PM**

My friends deliberately made me want to cry while tanking on the Monday->Tuesday night weekly/daily reset. xD;

Well, it wasn't toooo bad but we queued for Expert Roulette right after midnight because you can do two experts for 140 poetics on Tuesday that way.

Well one DRG only has DRG. I had a BLM. and a SCH. They all end-game FCOB on these while I was tanking as PLD.

I eat my own words when they do speedrun pulls while I know they're going to do lots and lots of dps, I mean these are the people I merc with and do lotsofDPS<3 on Nael in T9. I flash my life away and hear "I'm pulling more" by the blue fucking ghetto fucking smurf sch. And a DRG says "I'm pulling now." My BLM is nice she just crits her attacks when I've only thrown my shield.

Provoke a goat to control the pulls? ALL THE DPS COMBOS OFF. "GUYS I JUST-" "NOPE WE KILLING"

Shield lob "ATTACK! DIVE JUMP FLARE" ; ;

; ;

I'm sorry I suck at tanking.

7 mobs at 1/4th HP left and I'm trying to get MP back SCH: "PULLING MORE"
"BUT I CAN'T RIOT BLADE I HAS NO MP YOU SMURF"

edit: Seriously, fuck AK HM.

Go into Keeper of the Lake with other friends using their FCOB raiding jobs. have fun. Don't die. WHM at i130 lols I CAN SURVIVE Wait- Did you just bene yourself?

"...misclick"

Good thing I don't need it.

Melkire · **02-06-2015, 06:00 PM**

(02-06-2015, 05:34 PM)Kage Wrote: My friends deliberately made me want to cry while tanking on the Monday->Tuesday night weekly/daily reset. xD;

Well, it wasn't toooo bad but we queued for Expert Roulette right after midnight because you can do two experts for 140 poetics on Tuesday that way.

Well one DRG only has DRG. I had a BLM. and a SCH. They all end-game FCOB on these while I was tanking as PLD.

I eat my own words when they do speedrun pulls while I know they're going to do lots and lots of dps, I mean these are the people I merc with and do lotsofDPS<3 on Nael in T9. I flash my life away and hear "I'm pulling more" by the blue fucking ghetto fucking smurf sch. And a DRG says "I'm pulling now." My BLM is nice she just crits her attacks when I've only thrown my shield.

Provoke a goat to control the pulls? ALL THE DPS COMBOS OFF. "GUYS I JUST-" "NOPE WE KILLING"

Shield lob "ATTACK! DIVE JUMP FLARE" ; ;

; ;

I'm sorry I suck at tanking.

7 mobs at 1/4th HP left and I'm trying to get MP back SCH: "PULLING MORE"
"BUT I CAN'T RIOT BLADE I HAS NO MP YOU SMURF"

edit: Seriously, fuck AK HM.

Go into Keeper of the Lake with other friends using their FCOB raiding jobs. have fun. Don't die. WHM at i130 lols I CAN SURVIVE Wait- Did you just bene yourself?

"...misclick"

Good thing I don't need it.

I've said it before and I've said it again: tanking coil and other endgame content such as EX primals will never, ever, ever prepare anyone to tank high-level 4-man instances.

This is because Coil is a raid environment that usually revolves around a boss fight. Mechanics must be followed, or else you will wipe. Therefore the tanks, damage dealers, and healers all do their jobs properly, follow instructions, perform as optimally as they can, etc. Since the other roles need a damage soak in Coil, they will work and coordinate with the tank to minimize any possibility of pulling the boss off the tank (which is difficult to do anyway, since the main tank is at liberty most of the time to focus and build enmity on a single target). So tanking Coil becomes less a matter of enmity management and more a matter of "Can I follow mechanics? Okay, good, now to mitigate damage as optimally as I can".

None of the above is the case in a high-level 4-man dungeon. There are minimal mechanics, especially on trash between bosses, and therefore minimal risk of wiping. This relatively low risk environment usually means that damage dealers and healers are at liberty to pull ahead of the tank and fool around as much as they like. Tanks in these instances therefore have to learn to strongarm the situation and force their will upon encounters (this is part of why I laugh at the idea of marking; if a damage dealer wants to do his own thing, he's going to do his own thing, the marks aren't going to stop him). Suddenly, the game has very little to do with damage mitigation and everything to do with enmity management. That is a VERY different game from Coil.

Some tips for tanks:

1. Always, always, ALWAYS pull the next group of trash ahead of your party members. If there's a pull-happy party member, you'll have to oblige them with a speedrun or else bow out of tanking (since they'll be tanking for you). Stuff your ego, step out of your comfort zone and get the job done. That, or abandon.

2. AoE DPS w/ boosted enmity is king. That means Overpower and Circle of Scorn. Enmity combos are bread-and-butter.

3. Provoke will not save you unless you are in a position to deal damage w/ boosted enmity faster than the damage dealer(s) and/or healer can DPS/heal. Majority of the time, Shield Lob/Tomahawk follow-up will make no difference. Instead, prep a combo'd BB/RoH and follow up Provoke with it.

4. Flash is shit. Less shitty than it used to be, but shit is still shit.

Kage · **02-06-2015, 06:10 PM**

I don't think you understand the point of what I posted because none of those would have changed a thing. Except for the pull everything even though you're blocked until after the block is blown up and then be ready to just keep running to the next block.

Aysun · **02-06-2015, 08:05 PM**

(02-06-2015, 06:00 PM)Melkire Wrote: 4. Flash is shit. Less shitty than it used to be, but shit is still shit.

It is NOT shit! /rant

As a healer, I want to just not heal any tank who doesn't understand that Flash is an important part of crowd control.

Nebbs · **02-06-2015, 08:25 PM**

TLDNR

So.. if you want to learn how to tank, get a good tank to take you out and watch what they do and ask them why they did that.

I always try to play each role just to appreciate how it all fits together.

Melkire · **02-06-2015, 08:52 PM**

(02-06-2015, 08:05 PM)Aysun Wrote:
(02-06-2015, 06:00 PM)Melkire Wrote: 4. Flash is shit. Less shitty than it used to be, but shit is still shit.

It is NOT shit! /rant

As a healer, I want to just not heal any tank who doesn't understand that Flash is an important part of crowd control.

Let me rephrase that, now that I have time and don't have my boss breathing down my neck.

Flash, when regarded solely as an enmity generation tool and irrespectively of its mitigation uses, will always be inferior to damage-dealing AoE weaponskills with enmity multipliers such as Overpower and Circle of Scorn.

This has to do with how Flash's enmity is calculated. Back before an enmity multiplier was added to it, Flash generated significantly less enmity than Steel Cyclone, Unchained Overpower, Overpower, and combo'd Butcher's Block / Rage of Halone. I can't say where it sits now (nor do I know where CoS was or is sitting), since I haven't done any testing myself nor can I find anyone who's done so in the past 11 months. That multiplier has now put Flash on par, or very nearly so as to be nigh indistinguishable, with Overpower.

The difference today, as it was then, is that Flash generates a set potency's worth of enmity. There is no variance. It cannot crit, and (AFAIK) is rarely if ever affected by most forms of damage amplification. Contrast with Circle of Scorn, Overpower, Steel Cyclone, etc.

There's a reason that WARs are (or were, not sure what the raid scene has to say on it today) preferred for OT adds duty (outside of T5 and possibly T9, where they're taken as MT for IB), and that has largely to due with the fact that a Paladin's skill/cooldown suite isn't as well suited to AoE enmity generation, largely owing to Flash's shortcomings and the 25s CD on Circle of Scorn (it also has to do with WARs making use of both TP and MP as resources for AoE enmity).

ALL OF THAT SAID, Flash is still a useful tool for PLDs and WARs alike (perhaps moreso for PLDs due to the Blind from their Enhanced Flash trait), and any tank who isn't making use of it when the situation calls for it is severely gimping themselves.

Besides. It's still the only way to generate enmity on sleeping targets without waking them up, and it's still the primary AoE enmity generation tool for PLD.

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