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Entity · **03-01-2014, 02:41 PM**

(03-01-2014, 01:11 PM)Ildur Wrote: "Of course that, when I say that to be an Ul'dahn noble you need to be rich, that 'you' means 'your character on a roleplaying level'. The actual ammount of gil you have mechanically speaking is irrelevant. But how much gil or properties or riches in general your character has in-character is relevant to him being or not an Ul'dahn noble. Once you have defined him as an Ul'dahn noble, you can go nuts with the concept. But your basis for the character has to be strong, and for it to be strong it needs to be consistent with the game universe."

On this part, I would disagree. In any game or story you create, it is your world, and how you choose to go about it depends on you, as the creator. Here I am speaking of the people who made FFXIV. One can use references from the real world to CREATE their world, but at the same time, they shouldn't have to adhere to policies and cultures of the real world. What I mean is, just because of something you know in the real world is used in your story doesn't mean it has to be exactly like it. It can be warped, transformed, or twisted however you feel you want it to be. That's why it's called fantasy and fiction, because while it's not true nor completely follows real life elements, it is looking at what we as human beings believe to be true or learn about OUR world in a different way, opening our minds to something entirely different, which is why I have a slight problem with people who base something that's not wholly explained or covered in the game on on something that's in real life, because I feel you are limiting yourself that way. I speak of just the creation of a story or system in general when it comes to these kind of things. And no Ul'dah is not the only place where you can be a noble, if that's what you're implying here.

"The limits imposed by lore create consistency. You can bend them and go farther than them as long as it is coherent and consistent with the game universe. The moment you go too far (and where 'too far' lies might vary depending who you ask) you risk losing your character's credibility. There's nothing stopping you from making a character who is a Shogun, but it doesn't fit in the world. People will wonder: "Why does this particular character who is beyond the defined limits of the game universe exist"? In this particular case, because there's no nobility system in any of the canon city states that uses that terminology or even that particular kind of feudal system. A Shogun wouldn't be coherent with the world.

Though if your particular RP group is okay with that kind of roleplaying then there's no problem. Just remember that most roleplayers like to work within a particular framework. Different groups will have different thresholds about how much bending (or breaking) they are willing to put up with."

Oh, I believe I explained and/or covered this part in one of my paragraphs, lol. :

"Many many things go into a character and story, and I feel some people don't realize that. A subject like nobility, or any subject for that matter, isn't determined by what SHOULD be or SHOULDN'T be that ISN'T explained OR created by the ones who MADE the game as canon, it is determined by your ability to create it as well as knowing HOW to create it and manage it in such a way that people can not only understand it, but be allowed to take part in it if they choose to and are allowed to. After all, you are creating something AND someone for millions of people to see and have a chance to interact with, knowing that you have to expect what can and, fortunately AND unfortunately, will happen."

If the lore or story mechanics have it, then that is how it has to be, because it's there and that's,Â quite simply put, the "ground rules."Â I'm not saying goÂ AGAINST that, just to be careful not to mix what you know of the real world with a world that's fictional or fantasy, and even more so with a world that's not finished yet. That said I'm aware of how hard that can be. I believe it's a mistake to justify a concept that's not shared in the game you play with a concept in real life, because that's not what the game is about or trying to emulate. I think the real problemÂ here is that people get excited about a concept, but thenÂ either ignore or lack too many details IN that concept for people to either not care, or not be able to understand theÂ way it worksÂ well-enough to WANT to be a part of it. In other words I feel people don't put as muchÂ effort as they need to for it to be a valid and acceptable concept.

Quote:But, keeping RL elements out of a discussion about a game, people argue so much about what should be and what shouldn't be they forget what REALLY matters, and that's having the capabilities required to create something that is accessible to all, or at the very LEAST, make sense enough for people to understand and realize what it is.

"What REALLY matters is having fun. If creating characters that are consistent with the game world is not fun to you then, well, it is not fun to you and all discussions about lore will be useless as far as you are concerned. The reason those discussions exist, however, is because some of us like to create characters and stories that can fit properly in the world. And for that we have to know where the limits are. "

Oh, by no means am I saying it cannot be fun. You want to be able to enjoy what you create, so when someone or something limits that that is NOT part of the ground rules set by the world you're in, it becomes a problem, especially when there are others who are connected to what you created. I'm not sure, I think I got lost in my own words lol, I think the line between what can be in the game and what can be in a story disappeared in my explanation, and I started talking from a universal standpoint. But yeah, to be terse, If there are a set of rules in a story you are taking part of, then yes, it would be best to follow them unless you have permission to do otherwise. It's always important to have fun, because it's a game, and people are here to enjoy themselves. For me all I'm saying is, when you're creating a story and character, don't do it halfway through and just drop off all the details. If you love to write and create, there should be no problems with going the distance and covering anything and everything about your character, both when you make it and as you go along, before you takeÂ "leaps and bounds."Â

Sounsyy · **03-01-2014, 04:19 PM**

(03-01-2014, 02:41 PM)Entity Wrote:
(03-01-2014, 01:11 PM)Ildur Wrote: "Of course that, when I say that to be an Ul'dahn noble you need to be rich, that 'you' means 'your character on a roleplaying level'. The actual ammount of gil you have mechanically speaking is irrelevant. But how much gil or properties or riches in general your character has in-character is relevant to him being or not an Ul'dahn noble. Once you have defined him as an Ul'dahn noble, you can go nuts with the concept. But your basis for the character has to be strong, and for it to be strong it needs to be consistent with the game universe."
On this part, I would disagree. In any game or story you create, it is your world, and how you choose to go about it depends on you, as the creator. Here I am speaking of the people who made FFXIV. One can use references from the real world to CREATE their world, but at the same time, they shouldn't have to adhere to policies and cultures of the real world. What I mean is, just because of something you know in the real world is used in your story doesn't mean it has to be exactly like it. It can be warped, transformed, or twisted however you feel you want it to be. That's why it's called fantasy and fiction, because while it's not true nor completely follows real life elements, it is looking at what we as human beings believe to be true or learn about OUR world in a different way, opening our minds to something entirely different, which is why I have a slight problem with people who base something that's not wholly explained or covered in the game on on something that's in real life, because I feel you are limiting yourself that way. I speak of just the creation of a story or system in general when it comes to these kind of things. And no Ul'dah is not the only place where you can be a noble, if that's what you're implying here.

I think what Ildur was trying to say is that it is almostÂ canon-ly necessary for your character to be rich to be nobility in Ul'dah. It doesn't have anything to do with real life influences. (Which I'll agree, leave real world stigmas out of fantasy settings.)

However, the only lore ways to be a Noble in Ul'dah are [1] Be related somehow to one of the royal families of Ul'dah or make up a royal/noble family to be a part of. And if you're related to one of the royal families, you're already wealthy. (Look at Prince Teledji Adeledji.) [2] Be uncommonly wealthy and "buy" your nobility. How you go about amassing your fortune is up to you as a roleplayer.

Now this doesn't mean your character can't have been nobility or related to nobility and then gave it all up for the adventurer's lifestyle or something like that, idk. But at that point, you've pretty much relinquished your noble title in the eyes of Ul'dahians. Social Status in Ul'dah is all about money. Money is what makes you powerful. Without it, you're as noble as the beggars on Pearl Lane.

Ildur · **03-01-2014, 08:07 PM**

Pretty much what Sounsyy said above. I'm not really sure why it wasn't clear enough. We all can agree that character reality has nothing to do with player reality.

Entity · **03-02-2014, 01:16 AM**

Well I'm not talking about Ul'dahn nobility by itself, I'm talking more about nobility in general and/or as a whole. Like I said I don't play chars involved with nobility very often so I don't have much experience with that kind of subject, assuming the kind of "nobility" we are talking about hereÂ is frilly dresses, sophisticated presentation, proper etiquette, etc., or I don't know if the roles some of them play could be considered nobility. When I think about these kinds of things in a character, I tend to use concepts and words more like "heir" or "taking his/her father's/mother's place," "taking on the burden of the family," "becoming the next legacy down the generation..." terms like that. Emiiresa deals with wanting to learn about someone in her family, and eventually, hoping to become like and even surpass that family member. Another character is both apprehensive and confused about how she should carry on a legendary trait that dwells within her from one side of her family. Finally another character chose to runaway from responsibility, not wanting to become next in line to lead something that a family member controls. I'm not sure if those would fall under this particular subject, but I don't feel like it does...otherwise, correct me if I'm wrong. If these are different concepts in itself from nobility then I guess IÂ don't really know as much about nobility as I thought, otherwise I really just considerÂ those kind of concepts above as a typical familial happening or a "rite of passage" within the family, rather than just being "nobility." That said, can nobility ONLY be defined by wealth, or is that only because of that's how the game has defined and shaped the concept out to be?

Lady Portia Bartel · **03-02-2014, 01:42 AM**

It seems to me that it would...mostly depend on the people you are with, as to how seriously you take the lore into consideration and how much you're willing to overlook.

I think noble characters in general can be really interesting when thrown into a mix. It adds a different dynamic, say, one where the character might have had a more strict life, and grew up learning specific things like more about history and less practical things like how to sleep in the wilderness.

As for me, my character is slightly modified from regular RPs. So, the story is that she comes from a house in Gridania nobility, from central shroud. I like to think of it as a mix of family/wealth based...perhaps a few generations of merchants (I mean after all, merchants from Ul'dah would have to trade with merchants established in other areas? Just an example.) who established wealth and bought land.

I know lore might start playing into this if I took it too seriously...like how the twelveswood was apparently a living entity or something like that...then yeah, 'owning' land might have gone differently. Still, I care more about how this effects my character's habits, and the things she knows, and her ethics. Basically how she places a lot of self-worth in her ability to produce children and act motherly and lady-like.

Steel Wolf · **03-02-2014, 09:02 AM**

My GOODNESS this has been a fascinating thread. All. Nine. Pages. O_O

I would love to see a pair of noble houses play out intrigue and other social games in an RP setting, but more often than not it's simply used as an "easy" to form backstory for a character, in my experience. I don't think less of the player for using the trope in their background, or even for mentioning that they still retain some level of Lordship in their current interactions, as long as they're not trying to pound the fact over one's head.

Honestly, nobility in an MMO has been done about as frequently as any other RP archetypal trope, so the existence of them doesn't bother me one way or the other. Nobility in this game appears to be most heavily applied in Ishgard, but more implied in Ul'dah. The way I see it, Ul'dah citizenry assume their noble standing through money, or as a survival tactic--I am so TOTALLY a noblewoman because honestly, what sort of regular street rat would wear this chiffon silken gown so please take me seriously please? Ul'dah is a city of liars, refugees and the destitute all trying to not pile on top of each other while being piled on top of each other. It's a fascinating city in that regard.

As for Gridanian nobility, I always got the impression that those in the Gentry Ward still cling to the city-state's isolationist stance, and refuse to acknowledge the changing world around them...thus they barred the gates and kept "commoners" out. So, to that point, I think there still is a nobility there, but they're closed off, both literally and mentally, and the rest of Gridania simply rolls its eyes and carries on, ignoring the Ward's attitude.

It all can work out if planned properly, I agree, and I would love to see how some organized, thought-out and plotted nobility would play their little games of intrigue. Steel would never get involved, but would definitely love to watch. It could work, because, as was said earlier...

(10-12-2013, 10:06 PM)SessionZero Wrote: We're in a game where we ride giant chickens and shoot fireballs out of our asses.

So who's to say we can't see some in-game nobility attempt some little power plays? :3

Ildur · **03-02-2014, 01:52 PM**

(03-02-2014, 01:16 AM)Entity Wrote: That said, can nobility ONLY be defined by wealth, or is that only because of that's how the game has defined and shaped the concept out to be?

As I have pointed out before, that is so only for Ul'dahn nobility because that's how the game defined the concept for that place. Ishgard's system, as per lore, has a system based on the middle ages where being a noble has nothing to do with wealth.

Entity · **03-02-2014, 01:57 PM**

(03-02-2014, 01:42 AM)PortiaBartel Wrote: It seems to me that it would...mostly depend on the people you are with, as to how seriously you take the lore into consideration and how much you're willing to overlook.

I think noble characters in general can be really interesting when thrown into a mix. It adds a different dynamic, say, one where the character might have had a more strict life, and grew up learning specific things like more about history and less practical things like how to sleep in the wilderness.

As for me, my character is slightly modified from regular RPs. So, the story is that she comes from a house in Gridania nobility, from central shroud. I like to think of it as a mix of family/wealth based...perhaps a few generations of merchants (I mean after all, merchants from Ul'dah would have to trade with merchants established in other areas? Just an example.) who established wealth and bought land.

I know lore might start playing into this if I took it too seriously...like how the twelveswood was apparently a living entity or something like that...then yeah, 'owning' land might have gone differently. Still, I care more about how this effects my character's habits, and the things she knows, and her ethics. Basically how she places a lot of self-worth in her ability to produce children and act motherly and lady-like.

Actually, with the FC Housing, you could round up some willing participants and kind of pull it off. =P

Entity · **03-02-2014, 02:13 PM**

(03-02-2014, 09:02 AM)Steel Wolf Wrote: My GOODNESS this has been a fascinating thread. Â All. Â Nine. Â Pages. O_O

I would love to see a pair of noble houses play out intrigue and other social games in an RP setting, but more often than not it's simply used as an "easy" to form backstory for a character, in my experience. Â I don't think less of the player for using the trope in their background, or even for mentioning that they still retain some level of Lordship in their current interactions, as long as they're not trying to pound the fact over one's head.

Honestly, nobility in an MMO has been done about as frequently as any other RP archetypal trope, so the existence of them doesn't bother me one way or the other. Â Nobility in this game appears to be most heavily applied in Ishgard, but more implied in Ul'dah. Â The way I see it, Ul'dah citizenry assume their noble standing through money, or as a survival tactic--I am so TOTALLY a noblewoman because honestly, what sort of regular street rat would wear this chiffon silken gown so please take me seriously please? Â Ul'dah is a city of liars, refugees and the destitute all trying to not pile on top of each other while being piled on top of each other. Â It's a fascinating city in that regard.

As for Gridanian nobility, I always got the impression that those in the Gentry Ward still cling to the city-state's isolationist stance, and refuse to acknowledge the changing world around them...thus they barred the gates and kept "commoners" out. Â So, to that point, I think there still is a nobility there, but they're closed off, both literally and mentally, and the rest of Gridania simply rolls its eyes and carries on, ignoring the Ward's attitude.

It all can work out if planned properly, I agree, and I would love to see how some organized, thought-out and plotted nobility would play their little games of intrigue. Â Steel would never get involved, but would definitely love to watch. Â It could work, because, as was said earlier...

(10-12-2013, 10:06 PM)SessionZero Wrote: We're in a game where we ride giant chickens and shoot fireballs out of our asses.

So who's to say we can't see some in-game nobility attempt some little power plays? Â :3

Problem with that, which I still feel is a looming problem in RP (and I've seen it before in other games I've played) Is that such a concept is one of power, and to be a lame-o quoting it, "with great power comes great responsibility." There's not a lot out there that can develop that kind of power responsibly with regardsÂ to interacting with other people and creating a versatile story. It ties easily into godmoding, or maybe as I'd like to call it "superman-ing" if one is not careful. That's why I consider those who add in consequences and weaknesses to their story more appealing, because they invite challenges and changes that really put a story together and give other people a chance to influence or change it for the better. Like I said, unless they're hiding from me or I don't know them, there's not a lot of people who can create power like that without becoming ignorant of the other players, even worse so, when the creator does not elect to fill in the details, or explain all the elements they choose to have in their concepts. I say don't start on a subject you have no idea of how to create and develop, or you're not going to be able to explain (OOCly) without breaking too many important elements in either the world you're in, or the world you yourself created.

Natassia Olorin · **06-25-2015, 05:45 AM**

I'm more than interested, Nats a young Royal.... I'd love to find a family to be from, but cool with starting from scratch.... I'm from Ul'dah. Anyone interested in building RP, let me know... even an ic arranged marriage would be fun

Sahja Elahka · **06-25-2015, 06:51 AM**

Honestly, the idea of a "noble house" RP sounds phenomenal.Â But the main problems would be

1) The number of people wanting to play nobles outnumber the rest
2) Without a story it just becomes higher class slice of life which feeds problem 1
3) The difficulty of finding a common ground rule.

But really, the idea is amazing, and its things like this that made me start being an NPC.Â Would love to see it happen.

Paradox · **06-28-2015, 12:11 PM**

When it comes to nobility, all nobles aren't created equal, certainly. And whether you want to go more with old royal nobility or aristocracy is also a fun possibility. Different houses with different values, all vying for the favor of things. Ul'dah seems like its noble houses would be based entirely on money, and with how much you have meaning how big you are a lot of the time, there's a lot of opportunity for 'new money' to come up. Those who've come into a large sum by trading, or treasure hunting. Imagine the fun being the adventurer who has just gained enough wealth and measure to be considered 'powerful' in Ul'dah, but with little knowledge of how the older money does things. That'd be some fun RP in itself, with some delightful conflicts of interest. Adventurers and treasure hunters are often wont to use combat to solve their problems in a lot of cases; but when in an environment where violence is frowned on, they'd have to use their wits to convince these people that they're worthy to be their peers, or even their betters. Stranger in a strange land can take a lot of forms, and in noble house rps I've been in in the past, this is always good for a contrast of personalities without everyone being the 'same old nobles'. Ishgard is lineage, which is wholly different, and can accept outsiders into the family for reasons. From what I've seen, Gridanian nobility (If Lady Amandine and her gentlemanly servant are any indication) Remind me more of the old aristocracy, perhaps a mix of established houses and 'old money' style individuals..though perhaps a strong Conjurer bloodline/closeness to the Elementals would rank you in as well. Limsa..eh..I've never seen any indication of nobility in Limsa as far as the city proper. I'm sure a wealthy shipowner would be the closest they have to 'nobles', and if they have anything, it would be merchant lords who own fleets and make a lot of trading money.

There's also the idea of poor noble. Outside of Ul'dah, and maybe even rarely in it, they can exist. Perhaps their house had a major scandal, or maybe it was sacked. Maybe another family assimilated theirs and they kept their old name and used what was left of their house's reputation to keep the loyal ones close. Or perhaps they're living off their name alone; finding a marriage partner in another house can be a big deal for a noble on hard times, after all. It was like that in Titanic, after all. The young lady was marrying another wealthy (douchebag) aristocrat because as her mother told her, 'all the money was gone'. I think the most fun with playing nobles is there's as many concepts for them as there are for normal lowborn or middle class RP characters. Not all of them are snooty and drink tea and talk about the unwashed commoners. There's a diversity there, and when different types of nobility interact, it's a glorious sight if played correctly. I love intrigue RP almost as much as combat RP, so seeing some noble stuff going on more often would be pleasing and fun.

As far as conflicts and power plays, it's also great to bring in non nobles, giving them more opportunities. Adventurers, bounty hunters, thugs, low class types, all could be paid to rough up a noble's kid and rob them to 'teach them a lesson', to hamper caravans, to harass their rivals in 'bad parts of town' and the like. And let's not forget the noble's retainers. Who says that sweet little Au Ra maid isn't a shinobi assassin specializing in Othardian poisons that many Eorzeans wouldn't know? What's that? She's poisoned someone's heir? Then I guess you'd need a learned apothecary from a similar area of the world to identify the poison and save the poor boy before it's too late! Nobility have the ability to bring people from every class into their intrigue, form hirelings to killers to friends in low places, to mingling with the other side for whatever reason or another. Love them or hate them, they can get some great RP going. Whether your style is Downton Abbey or Game of Thrones, hope to see more of this.

McBeefâ„¢ · **06-28-2015, 01:40 PM**

(06-28-2015, 12:11 PM)Arklonn Sargonnai Wrote: There's also the idea of poor noble. Outside of Ul'dah, and maybe even rarely in it, they can exist. Perhaps their house had a major scandal, or maybe it was sacked. Maybe another family assimilated theirs and they kept their old name and used what was left of their house's reputation to keep the loyal ones close. Or perhaps they're living off their name alone; finding a marriage partner in another house can be a big deal for a noble on hard times, after all. It was like that in Titanic, after all. The young lady was marrying another wealthy (douchebag) aristocrat because as her mother told her, 'all the money was gone'. I think the most fun with playing nobles is there's as many concepts for them as there are for normal lowborn or middle class RP characters. Not all of them are snooty and drink tea and talk about the unwashed commoners. There's a diversity there, and when different types of nobility interact, it's a glorious sight if played correctly. I love intrigue RP almost as much as combat RP, so seeing some noble stuff going on more often would be pleasing and fun.

This is relatively close to my character concept. She's the only surviving child of a minor noble family in Ishgard who's power has faded over the years. However she was disgraced and exiled, and now live in Ul'dah.

I think there are lots of decent reasons to make a character highborn, or at least with some past involving it. Many play nobles clumsily, but I think an equal number play lowborn characters clumsily. There are things that it is unlikely the average non noble would have access to, such as:

- Education, and the ability to read

- Well spoken, and understanding proper use of language

- Manners and social graces

- Luxury of travel

Among others. There are lots of well spoken and charming lowborn characters in the game, however the lore leads us to believe it is rather unlikely. Every low born NPC you meet tends to be gruff and poorly spoken. Even the lowborn you meet in fancy Ishgard swears like a sailor constantly.

Paradox · **06-28-2015, 01:56 PM**

True, but that also comes down to playing style. Some actually find it difficult to play more rough characters, even if they're not playing a fancy noble. For myself, it's difficult sometimes because I like to think I have moderately good grammar, spelling, speech abilities. Stepping out of the ability to have such things is hard because I grew up being literate at a young age, learned to read quickly and developed my writing skills early. It's actually harder for me to use impolite speech or write in things like accents (because I often forget to add said accents in speech, which is my own fault, but I digress).

To that end I generally play characters who have at least a rudimentary education, or come from a more middle class sort of background. Not wealthy, but not dirt poor either. If my character also has a profession, which most characters do that isn't mercenary or bounty hunter or something of that line, they generally have basic reading skills for processing orders or sending out things. But this is totally off topic, so I'll actually stop my summary there.

Adventurers I'd think, might find a reason to at least learn to read because after a while, people will start to fleece you if you can't. Even if not noble born, they might also have done work for them at one point, and likely would have had to learn certain skills. There's a whole spectrum of people who work with high class individuals that have to at least be able to do certain things, so I think it's not as unrealistic in-lore for *some* lowborn types to have gotten there on their own or through training, but at the end of the day I think a lot of it is player stylistic more than a fully even portrayal.

McBeefâ„¢ · **06-28-2015, 02:04 PM**

(06-28-2015, 01:56 PM)Arklonn Sargonnai Wrote: True, but that also comes down to playing style. Some actually find it difficult to play more rough characters, even if they're not playing a fancy noble. For myself, it's difficult sometimes because I like to think I have moderately good grammar, spelling, speech abilities. Stepping out of the ability to have such things is hard because I grew up being literate at a young age, learned to read quickly and developed my writing skills early. It's actually harder for me to use impolite speech or write in things like accents (because I often forget to add said accents in speech, which is my own fault, but I digress).

To that end I generally play characters who have at least a rudimentary education, or come from a more middle class sort of background. Not wealthy, but not dirt poor either. If my character also has a profession, which most characters do that isn't mercenary or bounty hunter or something of that line, they generally have basic reading skills for processing orders or sending out things. But this is totally off topic, so I'll actually stop my summary there.

Adventurers I'd think, might find a reason to at least learn to read because after a while, people will start to fleece you if you can't. Even if not noble born, they might also have done work for them at one point, and likely would have had to learn certain skills. There's a whole spectrum of people who work with high class individuals that have to at least be able to do certain things, so I think it's not as unrealistic in-lore for *some* lowborn types to have gotten there on their own or through training, but at the end of the day I think a lot of it is player stylistic more than a fully even portrayal.

I struggle with that myself. My two main characters are a crusty blade and a disgraced noble. I have to take great efforts to keep their speaking styles different.

Part of it is obviously word choice. For example if something bad happens:

Evangeline - "Heavens Forfend!"

R'elend - "Fucking hell."

But one can only swear so much, there are other tells, like Evangeline never uses 'Aye' or 'Oy' or any of that. She tends to use people's correct titles, unless they are friends, etc etc.

However I slip up a lot, usually it's making my Blade too refined, same as yourself. But I just play it off as him being smarter than he appears. I have great respect for those who can consistently keep up an accent/manner of speaking for their character.

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Nobility in RP

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