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Kage · **01-16-2015, 03:17 PM**

I'm hoping this doesn't become a cesspool of political hot topics.

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Dogberry · **01-16-2015, 03:41 PM**

Math is pain. People who are good at math are wizards, and they should be feared and respected lest we face their wrath.

Aya · **01-16-2015, 03:57 PM**

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F7bKe_Zgk4o

Chillsmack · **01-16-2015, 03:58 PM**

(01-16-2015, 03:17 PM)Kage Wrote: I'm hoping this doesn't become a cesspool of political hot topics.

Dude, if you can find a place on the internet where people don't go critical-mass-emotional and turn everything into politics please let me know so I can live there lol

Berrod Armstrong · **01-16-2015, 03:59 PM**

Just did some reading on that sort of math. Wow -- no, every math teacher/lecturer/professor I've ever had is going to scream bloody murder when they see that rubbish. Ewww, no.

I love math. And THAT? That is just a way to make people do more work to get the same result -- something that math does its BEST to avoid. Simpler is better.

Telluride · **01-16-2015, 04:01 PM**

Feels your pain.

Edgar · **01-16-2015, 04:09 PM**

[youtube]lmiLxzx9RJE[/youtube]

Kage · **01-16-2015, 04:11 PM**

(01-16-2015, 03:59 PM)Berrod Armstrong Wrote: Just did some reading on that sort of math. Wow -- no, every math teacher/lecturer/professor I've ever had is going to scream bloody murder when they see that rubbish. Ewww, no.

I love math. And THAT? That is just a way to make people do more work to get the same result -- something that math does its BEST to avoid. Simpler is better.

The frustrated parent would be me. If I had a desire to be a parent right now.

"Get terminated for using shit like this."

Also, the teacher SAYING IT IS RIGHT. Gugh. I'm sorry but it's simpler to think of 8+5 = 13 than it is to take 3 from 5. Then 8+2 = 10. Add three to get 13!

C'kayah Polaali · **01-16-2015, 04:16 PM**

It amuses me that history textbooks typically use other history textbooks as primary sources, while with math people keep thinking "No, wait, I know! Let's scrap it all and do this batshit fucking crazy thing instead!"

Ask me about my homeschooling experiences teaching math.

We read Newton. Thumbsup

Naunet · **01-16-2015, 04:58 PM**

A bunch of people who think teaching math concepts to young kids is the same as solving a math problem when you are an adult...

If you look at the data, math scores have soared where Common Core strategies have been used, because the techniques actually show the kids whyÂ 727-316=111, instead of arriving at the answer seemingly magically and just memorizing math tables. Knowing the whyÂ of solving a problem is absolutely vital to applying critical thinking to future problems. The US's emphasis on memorizing calculation tables is one of the reasons we kind of suck at math nationally. When I'm instructing my 6th graders on the concept of solar radiation, convection, and conduction, I have to first get them to visualize radiation as waves. If I just skip to "convection is the movement of air in response to differences in temperature and density", they're not going to learn anything, and they're definitely not going to be able to apply the concepts to other ideas.

It's rather disingenuous to claim that the strategy used by a young kid when first learning to grasp subtraction will be used in its entirety ten, fifteen, twenty years later in that kid's life. This is an instruction tool, not an ultimate way to do things. As a teacher myself, I see the massive inherent value in these strategies.

MadWater · **01-16-2015, 05:13 PM**

(01-16-2015, 04:58 PM)Naunet Wrote: A bunch of people who think teaching math concepts to young kids is the same as solving a math problem when you are an adult...

If you look at the data, math scores have soared where Common Core strategies have been used, because the techniques actually show the kids whyÂ 727-316=111, instead of arriving at the answer seemingly magically and just memorizing math tables. Knowing the whyÂ of solving a problem is absolutely vital to applying critical thinking to future problems. The US's emphasis on memorizing calculation tables is one of the reasons we kind of suck at math nationally. When I'm instructing my 6th graders on the concept of solar radiation, convection, and conduction, I have to first get them to visualize radiation as waves. If I just skip to "convection is the movement of air in response to differences in temperature and density", they're not going to learn anything, and they're definitely not going to be able to apply the concepts to other ideas.

It's rather disingenuous to claim that the strategy used by a young kid when first learning to grasp subtraction will be used in its entirety ten, fifteen, twenty years later in that kid's life. This is an instruction tool, not an ultimate way to do things. As a teacher myself, I see the massive inherent value in these strategies.

As a 27-year-old aerospace engineering student, many of the Common Core math methods are exactly how I do mental arithmetic. I find they are excellent methods of computing sums, products, etc, when you don't have a calculator/computer/pencil and paper in front of you.

Naunet · **01-16-2015, 05:16 PM**

(01-16-2015, 05:13 PM)MadWater Wrote: As a 27-year-old aerospace engineering student, many of the Common Core math methods are exactly how I do mental arithmetic.

I meant more the whole physically drawing out the number line thing. But yes, even I do the "subtract multiples of 10/100/1x to get closer to the answer" thing in my head a lot.

MadWater · **01-16-2015, 05:40 PM**

(01-16-2015, 05:16 PM)Naunet Wrote:
(01-16-2015, 05:13 PM)MadWater Wrote: As a 27-year-old aerospace engineering student, many of the Common Core math methods are exactly how I do mental arithmetic.

I meant more the whole physically drawing out the number line thing. But yes, even I do the "subtract multiples of 10/100/1x to get closer to the answer" thing in my head a lot.

Well that's just so you have something to grade =P. You're effectively mentally drawing out a number line though. It's much handier than the "old school" subtraction algorithm, which is far less convenient and far more prone to error if you can't actually write it down. As adults, with simple calculators costing about 14 cents (which are only necessary if you don't have any kind of electronic device), pencil-and-paper methods of doing arithmetic problems are kind of pointless, imo.

Blue · **01-16-2015, 05:53 PM**

Let's see... I hate how hypocrite the politicians of my country (Italy) are being in relation to the terroristic attack in Paris. Everyone is Charlie Hebdo now, and apparently they forgot of all the satirical stand-up comedians, journalists and reporters they banned and fired from TV channels (all our main TV channels are owned by politicians, 3 to the Left and 3 to Silvio Berlusconi (who belongs to the Right) supposedly, but the co-director of the Left's TV channels is also a secretary to Berlusconi so you can guess who has the monopoly in the end), all because they dared talking of the church, of the politics, of how corrupted our government is, and most of all, of Berlusconi. You can read all of his crap on the wiki if you want, from his passion for minor prostitutes, how abuse of power for personal affairs, his fiscal evasion etc. He'll put any gangster you've had in the US to shame.

Thank goodness there's the Internet, or Italy would have no satire left to be seen.

And yet, today every one of our politicians shows off his Je Suis Charlie banner. It's fucking disgusting.

Kage · **01-16-2015, 06:21 PM**

I have seen no sufficient data saying math scores have -soared- or that gaps have been sufficiently closed as they've stated. What I have seen are trends where testing to standards have raised proficiencies in the subject that the tests are standard to.

Unless something is being fucked up, if I test towards X way of testing, I should be getting proficient in being tested that way.

In this case, being taught how to learn something and then being tested on how you learned something is different than the practice and implementation of it. Yes, people learn to do things in different ways and thus it helps them to approach problems in a way that they can actually perform it. In fact, some people can learn and perform without any of the concepts in the common core modules.

Most people -probably- wouldn't find the examples seen around as ludicrous if the people in charge of implementation such as the workbooks didn't make things ridiculous.

Yes, maybe you do want to find 10 out of the numbers 5 and 8. But when I want to add 5 to 8 I'm not going to finish at 10. 8 + (5-3) is still equal to 13. (5-3) + 8 = 10 +3 is still 13. It is, for some, easier to learn that it is easier to make it to a simple number such as 10s 100s 1000s and then use the remainder in whatever form but I do think it is ridiculous to believe that it is and should be a/the standard form of learning that will be tested towards and performed.

In my opinion, in its current implementation, it's trying to test how people think in the way they teach you to perform it than asking you quite simply to perform it.

I memorized the table of 12x12. And by table it wasn't the grid type it was actually just columns and rows of what times what equaled what.
1x1=1
1x2=2
etc.
I spent a whole summer memorizing it. 2 years later and I was bored in class and not understanding fuck all any of the methods being used to teach multiplication. I think it took me a couple of years before I understood the method at all. (Don't get me into fractions either).

Because hell, I -think- solving the following problem would be the same for common core and for some of us mentally. A box of food is $8.50. I give the cashier $10. How much should I expect to give back without the cashier using the register or my use of a calculator.
Would I really do
$10.00
- $8.50

No... I'd probably use this: 50 cents brings me to the nearest dollar ($9) and $10-$9 is $1 so the answer is $1.50.

Unfortunately, I certainly would not know I am doing the same thing when I look at so many of these workbooks. I think it's ludicrous to believe that's not a big flaw.

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