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Warren Castille · **02-04-2015, 09:14 AM**

(02-04-2015, 09:09 AM)Gegenji Wrote: I just get this odd feeling someone is going to use "BUT YOU ALLOW ARCHERS" as a counterpoint to disallowing gunners.

And yeah, the gentlemanne's pistole duele format would be neat to see... but not so much at the Grindstone, where you're pitting people of different combat styles against each other. Pairing off gunners themselves away from the others sounds exclusionary, and may have just as many complaints as barring them altogether.

Which is why I think perhaps setting up a sort of marksmanship contest (possibly around the same time even) might be worth doing. I'm surprised there hasn't really been any already, since ARC/BRDs have been a thing for quite a while. Heck, if we really wanted to, we could include anyone that can throw their weapons (MAR/WAR and LNC/DRG) and even spellcasters.

That way there's an alternative to offer when they get turned away, might help take some of the sting out of it. "Sorry, we don't allow guns, but you could go enter the Pinion in Gridania!"

You have a point, but I won't get pulled into that slippery slope. Bullets are too damn fast to believably avoid. Arrows push the boundaries enough, and I'm sure someone can find slow motion footage of someone throwing a knife ludicrously fast. Line has to be drawn somewhere.

Not my decision, will poll the rest, etc.

Arrelaine · **02-04-2015, 09:45 AM**

Back in the old days of muskets and lead bullets you were more likely to die from lead poisoning or infection than the actual shot itself. So it makes sense it would take multiple shots from something like good ol' Mer has, but she's also a crack shot and blew that fishback out of the water (haha, get it?). Add to the fact you're hitting a moving target and it's trying to hit you back, well.

That being said, we don't know what sort of machinery machinists are going to cook up. For instance, if we get regular revolvers then I'd say the above applies, but, then you get into adding aether to it and all the other fancy things in Eorzea. So it may not be that we have muskets in the old days, but we're probably going to see something more aether enhanced than straight-up guns. Not to mention the -other- toys and gadgets they'll be throwing around.

So based off what we know, it's hard to say how 'deadly' they'll be. I'm sure they'll hurt just as badly as everything else, though!

Sounsyy · **02-04-2015, 11:01 AM**

Zyrusticae · **02-04-2015, 02:23 PM**

(02-03-2015, 08:20 PM)Warren Castille Wrote: While I don't disagree with your not-disagreement, I was mostly trying to refer to that idea that someone wouldn't have the time to respond to a sudden pistol shot. Warren's been shot ICly; It was a sudden thing that he had no reasonable response to. Things were normal, then suddenly not, and there's no way someone can reliably dodge bullets repeatedly in an RP fight. That's my largest issue with guns being used freely, really: If someone quickdraws on you, you're at their effective mercy to not be shot, barring some very selective lucky circumstances or divine intervention.

I really don't understand why you're saying this.

This is the same game series where you see things like this (skip to 2:10):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tc9G-vjik8A#t=130

Fighters in Eorzea can have superhuman reflexes, they have aether, they can react to the direction of the barrel and move accordingly, etc. There is absolutely nothing saying they cannot react to a gun fighter aside from your own pre-formed prejudices which are based entirely on real-world references as opposed to fantasy.

Not that I really care. It's your event, do what you want with it. I just don't understand the thought process that leads to this.

Warren Castille · **02-04-2015, 02:26 PM**

(02-04-2015, 02:23 PM)Zyrusticae Wrote:
(02-03-2015, 08:20 PM)Warren Castille Wrote: While I don't disagree with your not-disagreement, I was mostly trying to refer to that idea that someone wouldn't have the time to respond to a sudden pistol shot. Warren's been shot ICly; It was a sudden thing that he had no reasonable response to. Things were normal, then suddenly not, and there's no way someone can reliably dodge bullets repeatedly in an RP fight. That's my largest issue with guns being used freely, really: If someone quickdraws on you, you're at their effective mercy to not be shot, barring some very selective lucky circumstances or divine intervention.
I really don't understand why you're saying this.

This is the same game series where you see things like this (skip to 2:10):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tc9G-vjik8A#t=130

Fighters in Eorzea can have superhuman reflexes, they have aether, they can react to the direction of the barrel and move accordingly, etc. There is absolutely nothing saying they cannot react to a gun fighter aside from your own pre-formed prejudices which are based entirely on real-world references as opposed to fantasy.

Not that I really care. It's your event, do what you want with it. I just don't understand the thought process that leads to this.

You care enough to quote me, bold something and then explain how you don't understand it. Despite your arguably-valid feelings on RPing someone blessed with supernatural prowess, the folks at the Grindstone tend to be more toned down than fucking Cloud of all people.

Some of us like a semblance of realism in our combat RP, which we have repeatedly butted heads against on. Yet here we are...

Yhen Yizeh · **02-04-2015, 02:34 PM**

Elfs with guns.Â Taking over.Â But it won't be long.

Zyrusticae · **02-04-2015, 02:39 PM**

(02-04-2015, 02:26 PM)Warren Castille Wrote: You care enough to quote me, bold something and then explain how you don't understand it. Despite your arguably-valid feelings on RPing someone blessed with supernatural prowess, the folks at the Grindstone tend to be more toned down than fucking Cloud of all people.

Some of us like a semblance of realism in our combat RP, which we have repeatedly butted heads against on. Yet here we are...

Well, when you're dealing with people using firesands-powered, breech-loaded, yet fully automatic firearms coupled with magitek enhancements, I'm beginning to think the realism angle just isn't going to fly unless you throw all of this out entirely.

And I mean... you can do that. But mentioning that dodging bullets isn't "believable" when the weapons themselves aren't even remotely within the realm of believability to begin with just strikes me as odd.

Warren Castille · **02-04-2015, 02:45 PM**

(02-04-2015, 02:39 PM)Zyrusticae Wrote:
(02-04-2015, 02:26 PM)Warren Castille Wrote: You care enough to quote me, bold something and then explain how you don't understand it. Despite your arguably-valid feelings on RPing someone blessed with supernatural prowess, the folks at the Grindstone tend to be more toned down than fucking Cloud of all people.

Some of us like a semblance of realism in our combat RP, which we have repeatedly butted heads against on. Yet here we are...
Well, when you're dealing with people using firesands-powered, breech-loaded, yet fully automatic firearms coupled with magitek enhancements, I'm beginning to think the realism angle just isn't going to fly unless you throw all of this out entirely.

And I mean... you can do that. But mentioning that dodging bullets isn't "believable" when the weapons themselves aren't even remotely within the realm of believability to begin with just strikes me as odd.

I don't know why I'm discussing this with someone who has never (and likely won't ever) attend the event in question, but the weapons are plenty believable in the setting. You're equating technological level with biological level, and these are not mutually exclusive to one another. Firesand exists. The cutscene use of firearms (and dungeon use of them, citing Sastasha HM and Brayflox HM's gobtank) show they fire quickly. This has NO EFFECT on people suddenly being able to perceive, anticipate and deflect/avoid bullets.

That does provide a simple errata to solve this, though. The Grindstone already bars aetherially-and-chemically-enhanced weapons and armor, though that's specifically for poisons, fire/cold, etcetera. It's not unreasonable to just tack "or technologically" enhanced weaponry.

If someone showed up sporting a custom longbow that knocked twelve shots per second and drew the string with the power of a machine, we'd bar it in a heartbeat. Guns aren't much different.

AGAIN. NOT MY CALL. TAKING POLLS.

Telluride · **02-04-2015, 02:53 PM**

Always take a gun to a knife fight...

Or is that a knife, to a gun fight?

Show Content

Gegenji · **02-04-2015, 02:54 PM**

(02-04-2015, 02:53 PM)Telluride Wrote: Always take a gun to a knife fight...

Or is that a knife, to a gun fight?

Show Content

Spoiler

NSFW Warning!

I'd prefer to just shell the site where the fight's going to take place with mortars. Avoid the potential for being hurt completely.

Kinono · **02-04-2015, 02:58 PM**

I'm all for characters being above the bar in strength, but I can't say I've seen anything to suggest that dodging bullets would be something any mortal character could do. Quite the opposite: NPCs get hit by ALL the projectiles. The one time a bullet was "dodged" was due to a hasty shot that simply missed its mark. Final Fantasy this game may be but most people here don't like the "anime fight simulator" style that many are so fond of.

Telluride · **02-04-2015, 03:00 PM**

(02-04-2015, 02:54 PM)Gegenji Wrote:
(02-04-2015, 02:53 PM)Telluride Wrote: Always take a gun to a knife fight...

Or is that a knife, to a gun fight?

Show Content

Spoiler

NSFW Warning!

I'd prefer to just shell the site where the fight's going to take place with mortars. Avoid the potential for being hurt completely.

It's the only way to be sure.

Edgar · **02-04-2015, 03:01 PM**

My observations:

I couldn't help but notice the double barrel revolvers that the Yellowjackets and, of course, Merlwyb use, happen to be closest to the "Flintlock" variety.

A flintlock firing mechanism. The similarities to the ones used in game are too great to be coincidence.

Â As it turns out, double-barrel, or Twelve help you, triple-barrel Flintlock is not always a good idea. In fact, it carries a modicum of risk that makes me question why they use the damn things in the first place.

Wikipedia Article on Flintlock Weapons - Double Barrels Wrote:

A Triple Barrel Flintlock pistol.

Because of the time needed to reload (even experts needed 15 seconds to reload a smooth-bore, muzzle-loading musket), flintlocks were sometimes produced with two, three, four or more barrels for multiple shots. These designs tended to be costly to make and were often unreliable and dangerous. While weapons like double barreled shotguns were reasonably safe, weapons like the pepperbox revolver would sometimes fire all barrels simultaneously, or would sometimes just explode in the user's hand. It was often less expensive, safer, and more reliable to carry several single-shot weapons instead.

So, if one were to ask me how deadly these weapons are, if this game used a a lot more realism (in 1.0, Merlwyb's shots ricocheted off of a Magitek vanguard as if they were nothing, so there is some realism being applied; flintlock does not a good anti-armor weapon make), I would wager they are more deadly to the user than the target, as the risk of taking your own hand off because the damn thing DETONATED in your hand is too much of an issue to make them safe...

But if they're not of the "Pepperbox" variety, I can imagine that the pistols toted by Yellowjackets and Admiral alike are simply advanced forms of Flintlock pistols, made of tougher and more reliable mechanisms and materials. That I could easily believe.

Zyrusticae · **02-04-2015, 03:04 PM**

(02-04-2015, 02:45 PM)Warren Castille Wrote: I don't know why I'm discussing this with someone who has never (and likely won't ever) attend the event in question[...]

Well I didn't know that, I don't really pay any attention to it either (mainly because I don't really have interest in playing around with dice rolls, not that you asked). Just felt like you were invested in it from your posts for whatever reason.

(02-04-2015, 02:45 PM)Warren Castille Wrote: [...]but the weapons are plenty believable in the setting. You're equating technological level with biological level, and these are not mutually exclusive to one another. Firesand exists. The cutscene use of firearms (and dungeon use of them, citing Sastasha HM and Brayflox HM's gobtank) show they fire quickly. This has NO EFFECT on people suddenly being able to perceive, anticipate and deflect/avoid bullets.

But the thing is, you're still handwaving the ammunition part of the equation. You're just accepting it because it's been given. If you can handwave 'they have unlimited ammo because reasons' you can equally handwave 'people can dodge (and punch!) bullets' with just as much actual backing in lore.

I'm just trying to find some consistency here. Either you accept all of it as given, or you throw out everything that doesn't work with what you're trying to do. But selectively picking one thing because it makes sense to you and throwing out the rest because you disagree with it rubs me the wrong way.

(02-04-2015, 02:45 PM)Warren Castille Wrote: That does provide a simple errata to solve this, though. The Grindstone already bars aetherially-and-chemically-enhanced weapons and armor, though that's specifically for poisons, fire/cold, etcetera. It's not unreasonable to just tack "or technologically" enhanced weaponry.

If someone showed up sporting a custom longbow that knocked twelve shots per second and drew the string with the power of a machine, we'd bar it in a heartbeat. Guns aren't much different.

AGAIN. NOT MY CALL. TAKING POLLS.

Well yeah, that makes sense. Personally, I would make a serious argument that the event should be exclusive to melee combatants, but that's not my call to make, either. Smile

Warren Castille · **02-04-2015, 03:12 PM**

(02-04-2015, 03:04 PM)Zyrusticae Wrote: rebuttal

I'm not meaning to handwave the entire thing away, so I apologize if that's how it sounded. The firing mechanism is present in the game and demonstrably not single-shot-reload. We don't know how many times it can do that, though. I'm not referring specifically to Garlean gunblade tech, which may or may not be used in the MCH class: I'm referring to the muskets and pistols we see elsewhere. I'm of the opinion that the weapons aren't functionally-infinite ammunition, it just seems that way because game mechanics. The gobtank doesn't fire repeatedly, it looks like a stream of machine gun fire that is on a long enough cooldown to warrant the operator restocking supply somehow. Conversely, Squidface in Sastasha will fire that pistol every second until everyone is dead, even if that means his flintlock just took 24 shots before stopping.

At the end of the day, though, if they tell us that MCH pistols use non-chambered, infinite-firing rounds using an aetherial powersource to create magic bullets, well... That still doesn't explain how people would suddenly be able to dodge or anticipate bullets. We're still talking technological explanation versus implied physical limits; Yda looking awesome in a cutscene is not the expected average competency of your random roleplayer. We would have demolished Garlemald by now if that was the case.

Finally, I agree with you about ranged weaponry feeling... off. However, people with bows were there before I was and it isn't my show to change, so while I'm not crazy about arrow shots or throwing knives (truly the most boring of implements!) I won't ever tell anyone not to use them.

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Gun Control: How deadly are they in Eorzea?

RPC has moved! These pages have been kept for historical purposes