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Heart Quintessence · **03-16-2015, 11:48 AM**

Random thought, but since CONJ's are basically uhh 'White Mages' without the 'WHM ' label (for all intents and purposes), is it not better for characters to ICly assume if someone castes, raise, or cure, ect, they're probably a conjuror or someone with some CONJ training?

Tiergan · **03-16-2015, 11:49 AM**

(03-16-2015, 09:40 AM)Gegenji Wrote:
(03-16-2015, 09:38 AM)Nako Wrote: I still believe it could be just as simple as how the Blood Elves gained the powers of Light from the Na'aru in WoW.

They somehow have a captive Elemental and somehow forced it to bestow upon some of them the ability to perform White Magic XD

There's plenty of corrupted elemental you have to deal with in the CNJ storyline and such. Maybe one could purposely corrupt an elemental of appropriate power and somehow get it to bestow Succor?

Oooh -- that's actually pretty interesting.

... Could someone DO that? I mean, you'd be getting Succor from an evil elemental that's borked to all hell and back, but that would be some pretty sweet character conflict to suddenly realise that the not-actually-conjury-powers-like-you-thought-they-were-holy-crap gifts you were getting from awesome Elemental buddy is Succor and your buddy is a corrupt Elemental in desperate need of cleansing. (Which likely means your Succor goes away once it's cleansed. Dun DUN DUNNN!)

(03-16-2015, 11:48 AM)Heart Quintessence Wrote: Random thought, but since CONJ's are basically uhh 'White Mages' without the 'WHM ' label (for all intents and purposes), is it not better for characters to ICly assume if someone castes, raise, or cure, ect, they're probably a conjuror or someone with some CONJ training?

That or an Arcanist tossing out Resurrect/Physick (at least, if they're meaningfully waving around a book in someone's direction), yep! No one would know unless that character trotted up to someone and promptly said "By the way, I'm a White Mage." which honestly doesn't really come up that often at all.

You could easily just have your character be a White Mage who keeps it very much on the down low that they are a White Mage and pretends to be a conjurer around virtually everyone until they really, really trust someone. Then you can OOCly decide who you RP the "I am a White Mage" bits with depending on whether or not you know they're comfortable with it. Best of both worlds. You get to RP with almost e'eryone.

Sounsyy · **03-16-2015, 11:52 AM**

Warren's pretty much got the right of it. There are or may be other methods, but there's yet to be any lore stating how exactly, so anything we theorize is just a shot in the dark. To be fair, we barely know how our own character truly becomes a White Mage. In the 1.0 version, there's a very interesting line in the first quest when Raya-O-Senna hands you a soulstone.

Raya-O-Senna Wrote:As you act in my name, I hereby permit you the use of white magic. Take here this linkpearl and the Soul of the White Mage. The latter is an ancient crystal imbued with the light of succor - by its power, the forbidden art will be yours to wield, albeit within your skill as a conjurer.

Now, during this quote your character begins glowing the moment Raya-O says she permits you to use White Magic and before you actually have the Soulstone in your hand. However, the quote seems to pretty heavily imply that it's by the power of that soulstone alone that you can even evoke the magicks. Without it... you're just a conjurer. Even with the stone, you're only as skilled as you are skilled at conjury. Does the Seedseer's vocal "permission" actually unlock Succor for you or no? Maybe.

So here's where this leaves me:
-Anyone who picks up a soulstone might have access to Succor. Anyone. This lends a lot of credence to the "I got my soulstone out of Amdapor" route to becoming a White Mage ICly.

-On the other hand, even with the stone, you can only invoke its power with conjury. So if you aren't a Conjurer (ie. NOT a healer, but rather someone who has devoted their life to the Stillglade Fane and restoring the Wood and spending years meditating and striving to hear the Elementals) that stone will not respond to you. It may not even respond to you unless you're a Hearer, given that before Raya-O hands you the stone she asks if you can hear Oha-Sok speaking to you.

-Now a conjurer of all people, especially a Hearer, knows better than to go against the Elementals. So to me this literally smells like a "Conjurer Gone Rogue" plot-line waiting to happen and the Seedseer Council giving YOU, the Player Character permission to hunt this wayward conjurer down and end him for betraying his duty to the Elementals, because YOU, the Player Character already have been previously trusted with the knowledge of Succor and the secrets of Amdapor. Did I just write a dungeon?

(03-16-2015, 09:40 AM)Gegenji Wrote: There's plenty of corrupted elementals you have to deal with in the CNJ storyline and such. Maybe one could purposely corrupt an elemental of appropriate power and somehow get it to bestow Succor?

Quick note of clarification in that the corrupted earth and wind you deal with in game are Sprites, another type of Lesser Elemental like the Fae. But I do believe your point still stands and that one of the Great Ones (as they're called by Raya-O) could feasibly be corrupted by Void... or Dalamud Cultists... /cough. Amdapor was hidden inside a giant Hedge Tree right... Every Hedge Tree is home to one of the Great Ones... The Dalamud cultists perform the most foul and bloody of rituals in Amdapor Keep HM to bathe the very walls of the Keep in Void taint and call forth the darkness... So much corruption... in the home of an Elemental... Hmm...

(03-16-2015, 11:48 AM)Heart Quintessence Wrote: Random thought, but since CONJ's are basically uhh 'White Mages' without the 'WHM ' label (for all intents and purposes), is it not better for characters to ICly assume if someone castes, raise, or cure, ect, they're probably a conjuror or someone with some CONJ training?

This. Pretty much all this. Considering maybe 50-100 people max in the entire world know White Magic still exists today, people should not ICly assume someone is a White Mage unless the character literally comes out and announces it (which most wouldn't do because 1) best kept secret in the world 2) it's technically forbidden). Even then, most characters don't have an IC reason to even know what that is. I know my character would just look at you blankly for about 5 minutes and then ask if you were gonna cure her wound or not?

Tiergan · **03-16-2015, 11:58 AM**

(03-16-2015, 11:52 AM)Sounsyy Wrote: Quick note of clarification in that the corrupted earth and wind you deal with in game are Sprites, another type of Lesser Elemental like the Fae. But I do believe your point still stands and that one of the Great Ones (as they're called by Raya-O) could feasibly be corrupted by Void... or Dalamud Cultists... /cough. Amdapor was hidden inside a giant Hedge Tree right... Every Hedge Tree is home to one of the Great Ones... The Dalamud cultists perform the most foul and bloody of rituals in Amdapor Keep HM to bathe the very walls of the Keep in Void taint and call forth the darkness... So much corruption... in the home of an Elemental... Hmm...

Suddenly wish I had patience to roll another character. :V

Clever thinking Chachanji/Sounsyy! I'm really partial to that idea. So much yummy character conflict in one neat package.

Hyrist · **03-16-2015, 01:47 PM**

Warning,the following is rant not directed at any individual in particular. Please read at your own risk.

Show Content

Here there be venting!

FFXIV's2.0 lore is not RP friendly, especially in direct comparison to 1.xx's lore.

White Mages in 1.xx were actually encourage to spread their craft where it is all secrecy and exclusivity in 2.xx.

My personal policy is that when lore conflicts with the play-ability of a character, exceptions can be made.

It'sprohibitively restrictive to deny a role-player the mechanics a player has with ease, and to over-adhere to lore in this case is too narrow and threatens to shove away potentials and veteran roleplayers alike.

That's how roleplay communities die.

Nobody wants to play with those who will spend more time trying to strike down stories than to build them, so it's best to avoid outright denying concepts that prove as exceptions to exclusion causes within Lore.

Only when the plot adheres directly to the theme of the main story do factors get hard-lined. Nobody is the Champion of Eorzea (Note, there are several 'Warriors of Light' any adventurer that participated in and survived Cartneau counts as one, strictly speaking.) becauseÂ anybodycan be.Â That'sa spot reserved for head cannons.

Beyond thatpoint,Â everythingÂ is
malleable.

So the real argumentative standpoint in evoking something are the points that craft a good story and a better roleplay. Questions such as this:

- Can the exception be crafted within current themes using minimal bypasses?
- What does it add to the roleplay/story character concept?
- Can this be executed in a (subjectively)believable manner to the community you are interacting with most?

And so forth.Â

This maybe an unpopular statement to say, but unless it's stated out the mouth of the lore team, anything, even the most minute, lore adherent roleplay produced by the players, amounts to fanfiction. That game in the majority of its story workings treats the player as if his/her existence is in a vacuum. The players 'adventurer friends' are only a minor reference, at best and from standpoints of lore the player character carries his/her adventurer friends through all these dangerous fights and dungeons.

That in direct opposition to the game's mechanics, and is effectively telling the player to neglect the game for the sake of RP. To date this stance remains my single largest criticism of the game. It isÂ veryÂ rp unfriendly from the lore standpoint, and I hold no blame on any RP group that bends the lore to make it more playable and enjoyable for its members.

Overall,my opinion on it is: If you can make an engaging story out of it, do it. Even if you mess it up, it'll be experience to learn from as you develop as a roleplayer. The lore is often a mess in this game that ignores its previous history - it can be paid homage to without adhering to all the restrictions it implicates.

Play it, to the best of your ability. Learn from it, and don't sweat the loremongering too heavily. Remember that roleplaying within established canons amounts to shared fanfiction. So long as what you're doing isn't perceived as outright insulting the story, most players are going to at the very least tolerate if not be entertained by it.

Heart Quintessence · **03-16-2015, 02:21 PM**

Good to hear that so many people, have differing opinions ( and though sometimes a bitÂ hot interms of people getting and expressing their opinions I think that's why I joined here, we can be mostly constructive and interesting. And its led me to really want to explore my character.

Bahati · **03-16-2015, 05:12 PM**

I main a healer but I, nor anyone I have ever come across in-game RP a character that is a white mage. I remember the split second of joy when I thought the revealed female Au-Ra was a playable Padjal only to be disappointed.

I'm surprised to hear Succor is what all the fuss is about. Not Raise? Isn't Succor something scholars find themselves casting? I must not have been paying close enough attention to storyline.

**Unnamed Mercenary** · **03-16-2015, 05:32 PM**

(03-16-2015, 05:12 PM)Bahati Wrote: I main a healer but I, nor anyone I have ever come across in-game RP a character that is a white mage. I remember the split second of joy when I thought the revealed female Au-Ra was a playable Padjal only to be disappointed.

I'm surprised to hear Succor is what all the fuss is about. Not Raise? Isn't Succor something scholars find themselves casting? I must not have been paying close enough attention to storyline.

No no no, Succor is what we call White Magic withint the game's universe. The spell "succor" is a fairy action.Â

Succor is a type of magic, like conjury, thaumaturgy, arcanima, etc.

K'nahli · **03-16-2015, 05:36 PM**

(03-16-2015, 05:12 PM)Bahati Wrote: I main a healer but I, nor anyone I have ever come across in-game RP a character that is a white mage. I remember the split second of joy when I thought the revealed female Au-Ra was a playable Padjal only to be disappointed.

I'm surprised to hear Succor is what all the fuss is about. Not Raise? Isn't Succor something scholars find themselves casting? I must not have been paying close enough attention to storyline.

Not sure why raise would cause issues. Again, assuming some people roleplay combat using actual in-game skills in their writing, then "raise" would just be the equivalent of healing an unconscious/incapacitated player and attempting to quickly restore them to fighting condition upon waking(though that sounds a bit awful, haha).

Warren Castille · **03-16-2015, 05:41 PM**

(03-16-2015, 05:36 PM)Knahli Wrote: Not sure why raise would cause issues. Again, assuming some people roleplay combat using actual in-game skills in their writing, then "raise" would just be the equivalent of healing an unconscious/incapacitated player and attempting to quickly restore them to fighting condition upon waking(though that sounds a bit awful, haha).

Look, I KNOW Ifrit just cleaved through you with the heat of a thousand suns, but... He's still alive. So now you are too. Get 'em, tiger!

Kellach Woods · **03-16-2015, 06:34 PM**

(03-16-2015, 05:41 PM)Warren Castille Wrote: Look, I KNOW Ifrit just cleaved through you with the heat of a thousand suns, but... He's still alive. So now you are too. Get 'em, tiger!

You should be operating at... around 10% less capacity while your soul readjusts and absorbs the fact that you didn't fucking die from that.

TRUST ME I'M A CONJURER.

(03-16-2015, 11:52 AM)Sounsyy Wrote: Quick note of clarification in that the corrupted earth and wind you deal with in game are Sprites, another type of Lesser Elemental like the Fae. But I do believe your point still stands and that one of the Great Ones (as they're called by Raya-O) could feasibly be corrupted by Void... or Dalamud Cultists... /cough. Amdapor was hidden inside a giant Hedge Tree right... Every Hedge Tree is home to one of the Great Ones... The Dalamud cultists perform the most foul and bloody of rituals in Amdapor Keep HM to bathe the very walls of the Keep in Void taint and call forth the darkness... So much corruption... in the home of an Elemental... Hmm...

To be even fairer, we still have to quell the Guardian Tree in Job Quest 50 - If that's not a sign of rampant corruption (that you end up staving off thanks to a certain individual who bought it in kobold mines) I don't know what is.

K'nahli · **03-16-2015, 07:08 PM**

(03-16-2015, 06:34 PM)Kellach Woods Wrote: TRUST ME I'M A CONJURER.

God damn it. Now I'm singing that part of the song (just with "White Mage" instead since it works better)! ;;

ArmachiA · **03-16-2015, 11:51 PM**

There's a theory running around out there that Raise actually only works on the Chosen of Hydaelyn, hence why other adventures just seem to die horrible deaths... I think it came from the Youtube guy known for doing lore videos but I can't remember the exact source.... so it may cause some contention? When I saw it it was an interesting theory and came to very interesting conclusions using lore.

That's probably where the contention comes from.

FloriaRaine · **03-16-2015, 11:58 PM**

(03-16-2015, 11:51 PM)ArmachiA Wrote: There's a theory running around out there that Raise actually only works on the Chosen of Hydaelyn, hence why other adventures just seem to die horrible deaths... I think it came from the Youtube guy known for doing lore videos but I can't remember the exact source.... so it may cause some contention? When I saw it it was an interesting theory and came to very interesting conclusions using lore.

That's probably where the contention comes from.

I recall the conjurer quests involving the use of raise, i believe that it can only bring someone back from the brink of death (or possibly even having a time limit after death, i believe after 6 minutes of death your brain completely dies, so perhaps something like that)

K'nahli · **03-17-2015, 12:29 AM**

Things like that have always just seemed as an unnecessary means to justify in-game mechanics to me to be honest. Like:

"Oh, the reason you return when you 'die' is because you use the last remnants of aether in your body to escape!1!!1"

Aside from that, I think you'd get a pretty different reputation if it was found out that, not only you were immortal, but part of the reason you succeed where so many others could not hope to also because you get an unlimited set of attempts more or less.

That's me anyways. Some people will argue against that kind of thinking saying something like "you can't pick and choose what lore to follow and call it anything but your own", but honestly they just try to pass anything off as lore when asked about it I think. The excuse for return mentioned above sounds a little more creative than:

"That doesn't actually happen in 'real life' ".

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